Why are Ahmadis considered non-Muslims in Pakistan

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

He has not passed away. Allah raised him to heavens.

Whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Messiah and the Mahdi or not is an issue that becomes personal and a matter between you and Allah.

However, if Hadhrat Isa (as) is passed away it gives Mirza Ghulam Ahmad more credibility. Surely, a dead person can never come back. Hence, the coming Messiah, foretold in Sahih Muslim, must be appointed by Allah.

I will, Insha Allah, on the authority of Muhammad Asad and Shaltut of Al-Azhar, prove that he already die a natural death.

I think this is the fairest route. Thereafter, if someone wants to accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad based on his claim is their own prerogative. The reason being is because Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has interpreted and has proven his truthfulness based on Quranic verses.

So, this leaves us with an extremely hard dilemma, how can a person's claim not contradict the Quran yet that person is false? This is a matter that you would have to conclude based on taqwah.

If Hadhrat Isa (as) is still alive in the Heavens it brings automatic falsehood on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. For surely he would be a liar, but one cannot assess his falsehood based on conjecture and those who are his enemies. It must be done by process of investigation at the individual level.

Therefore, the litmus is the Quran and personal study,

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

tobah i didnt know tat.

Dear eyeliner, I just posted this:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not die in the washroom. He died on his bed.

I posted a youtube clip about this.

Even if he did, how does that take away from what he said or did? There is no litmus test that if someone dies in the washroom he is wrong.

Further, there were no witnesses from among those who rejected him to confirm this claim under oath. When Allah disrespects someone He does in publicly to show an example of that person so as to warn others.

This whole story of him dying in the washroom is a made up story based on the fact that he was extremely weak due to diarrhea. One should be very careful when conveying a message, you don't want the wrath of Allah on you.

The Prophet (saw) says that Allah deal will someone in the same manner that person views Allah. So, if you think that dying in the washroom is a dishonorable death, then Allah might surely fulfill it on you. So, you better be at your best.

Whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is right or wrong, it does not matter. One should always extend justice to everyone. This is how we should work.

Don't judge the man based on conjecture, have fear of Allah. Judge the man based on what he said and did.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

lol eyeliner i ll change it your kinda right lolz

the majority of shia muslims the ithna asharia's themselves say ismailis are kaffir

the majority of sunni muslims say ahmadis are kaffir i guess theres just extreme branches in both schools of thought


having said all this i try to not to go into all this schiism anymore its kinda pointless i just focus on my 5 pillars and trying to be practising nowadays thats more of a real challenge

Please don't fall in the trap of majority. The majority of people in the world are not Muslim. Does this make Islam false?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

and mirza ghulam well i aint gonna say much more but there has been a list of people saying they are mahdi over the past few centuries and in my opinion he is just another one

allahu alim

As for those who claim to be the Mahdi, well the onus of investigation lies on us. The Mahdi will have to claim to be the Mahdi otherwise how will we know who to investigate?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

The most important factor is to seeking Allah's guidance and help.

One important factor is the Holy Quran, and that is why in Islam we are so much encouraged to study the Holy Quran. That is the key.

Further, you would have to investigate the claim of the person himself from his own writings. You would have to read it yourself, or at least talk to his followers. Hence, you would have to compare his claim based on the sources he uses. Therefore, you would have to acquaint yourself with what the sources itself in order to actually know what is the message being conveyed.

An important factor, is that you would have to get the interpretation of scholars who are against that claimants claims.

In this whole process prayer is very crucial.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

The most important factor for me is the fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad does not contradict the Holy Quran at all. That is why I am so inclined. It has given me all the reason to defend Ahmadis.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Muhammad (saw) is Khatamun Nabiyyeen, correct. However, it means "seal of the prophets" not "last of the prophets." If you pick up most translations, they will have seal not last.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Dearest and most respected brother,

those ahadith are not wrong. Not at all. One has to understand the context of those ahadith. Plus, one has to also understand the vast meanings of the word "بعد" which is found in those hadith.

Another key is the hadith brought by Hadhrat Suyuti (ra), in Al-Durr Al-Manthur, narrated by our mother Hadhrat Aishah (ra):

عن عائشة رضي الله عنها قالت
قولوا خاتم النبيين ولا تقولوا لا نبي بعده

It is reported on the authority of Hadhat Aishah (ra): "Say, he, i.e. the Holy Prophet (saw), verily is the Seal of the Prophets, but say not that there is no prophet after him."

In this context the word "بعد" clearly has the meaning of after. However, many other ahadith that say "لا نبي بعدي" the context has to be understood.

This hadith by Hadhrat Aishah is clear that there will be a prophet after Hadhrat Muhammad (saw). Many scholars who accept this hadith as authentic claim that it goes hand in hand with this hadith in Sahih Muslim:

Chapter : Account of the Dajjal and his features and what would be along with.

An-Nawwas b. Sam'an reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made a mention of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him to be insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant and we felt as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) in our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah's Messenger, you made a mention of the Dajjal in the morning (sometimes describing him) to be insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think as if he were present in some (near) part of the cluster of the date-palm trees. Thereupon he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among on, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not amongst you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah would take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said: For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). We said: Allah's Messenger, how quickly would he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He would come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion) and they would affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He would then give command to the sky and there would be rainfall upon the earth and it would grow crops. Then in the evening, their posturing animals would come to them with their humps very high and their udders full of milk and their flanks stretched. He would then come to another people and invite them. But they would reject him and he would go away from them and there would be drought for them and nothing would be left with them in the form of wealth. He would then walk through the waste, land and say to it: Bring forth your treasures, and the treasures would come out and collect (themselves) before him like the swarm of bees. He would then call a person brimming with youth and strike him with the sword and cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at a distance which is generally) between the archer and his target. He would then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness) and it would at this very time that Allah would send Christ, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who would smell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see. He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him. Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, he would say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions would then be besieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head of the ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to them insects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish like one single person. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will. Then Allah would send rain which no house of clay or (the tent of) camels' hairs would keep out and it would wash away the earth until it could appear to be a mirror. Then the earth would be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there would grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of persons would be able to eat that, and seek shelter under its skin and milch cow would give so much milk that a whole party would be able to drink it. And the milch camel would give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe would be able to drink out of that and the milch sheep would give so much milk that the whole family would be able to drink out of that and at that time Allah would send a pleasant wind which would soothe (people) even under their armpits, and would take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked would survive who would commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them.

LINK

Scholars claim that Hadhrat Isa (as) will be a prophet because he was a prophet, therefore, it will not break the "seal." However, what is interesting is that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has proven from the Holy Quran that Hadhrat Isa (as), son of Mary, of Nazareth, Palestine, has passed away.

Therefore, one has to confirm whether this is true or not. If Hadhrat Isa (as) has passed away then it changes to whole dynamics the Latter Days as understood by us Muslims.

[eyeliner]

wasnt da founder of pakiland an ismaili?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Masha Allah! Dearest Timbaktu, you are truly a seeker.

Here are a few sahih hadith from sahih Bukhari and musnad ahmad where Muhammad (Sw) declares there will be no prophet after him:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The Children of Israel used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." [al-Bukhari 4.661]

This hadith refers to the incidences that are to take place immediately after the demise of the Prophet (saw) and in the future of Islam. This hadith is a confirmation that no new prophet would come in order to over write the Shariah brought by Hadhrat Muhammad (saw). What this hadith is doing is laying out the future of Islam. The Prophet (saw) is telliing of how things will unfold until the end of time.

So, what the Prophet (saw) is saying is that in the future of Islam, unlike the case of the Children of Israel, there would not be a succession of prophets. Rather, they will "caliphs." With respect to this, Hadhrat Muhammad (saw), has further elaborated on what type of caliphates would take over. Plus, the Prophet (saw) has ordered that we should pledge allegiance to these "caliphs." This shows the importance of pledging allegiance.

I will now present a hadith in which he is telling of the types of Caliphates that will come (If you want the Arabic, let me know that I can type it for you.)

In Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal:

"Prophethood shall remain among you as long as Allah shall will. He will bring about its end and follow it with Khilafat on the precepts of prophethood for as long as He shall will and then bring about its end. A tyrannical monarchy will then follow and will remain as long as Allah shall will and then come to an end. There will follow thereafter monarchial despotism to last as long as Allah shall will and come to an end upon His decree. There will then emerge Khilafat on precept of Prophethood." The Holy Prophet said no more. (Masnad Ahmad)

What is fascinating is that the first set of khulafaa (successors) were based on the precept of prophethood and so will be the last set of successors. The last set of khulafaa will be based on prophethood. This confirms the hadith in Sahih Muslim. And apparently the last set will go until the end of time because there is nothing else mentioned. In between, the Khulafaa-ye Rashideen and the Latter Day Khulafaa, it was fulfilled by:

• Umayyads, 7th–8th centuries
• Abbasids, 8th–13th centuries
• Fatimids, 10th-12th centuries
• Shadow Caliphate, 13th–16th centuries
• Ottomans, 16th-20th century

Today, you have the Ahmadiyyat Caliphate. It is on the precept of the prophethood.

If you understand Urdu, this is an example of how Khalifat-e Ahmadiyya functioning today:

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Narrated Ayesha (RA): "Prophethood will NOT continue after me, except the harbingers of good news". They asked "What are the harbingers of good news, O Apostle of Allah?." He replied: "Virtuous and pious dreams a Muslim sees or are shown to him". [4]

This is referring to the fact that he is the Seal of the Prophets. That is, no new prophethood would come to overwrite Islam. This hadith is confirming the fact that Islam is the only religion until the end of time.

However, this hadith does not stop prophets who will follow in the footsteps of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) to come. That is what the ahadith in Muslim and Musnad Ahmad are supposed to convey. Further, who brings "glad tidings?" Only prophets do!

Did you know, brother, that Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) has been mentioned by two names in the Holy Quran?

1. Muhammad
2. Ahmad

Did you know that Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) was never ever called Ahmad in his lifetime? Why do you think he was mentioned as Ahmad?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

you don't need to write it, you can just direct me towards it if you have answered it before or a link would be appreciated.

thx

If you go through this thread I have posted it or it might be in another thread about Ahmadiyyat. However, if you wish, I can go over it with you. I don't mind. It gives me a good excuse to drop everything and read the Quran.

[amna.]

So if I understand this right, Ahmadis think Jesus will never come? He is dead and gone?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

How do you come to the conclusion that it means "no new prophet would come in order to over write the shariah".? Why can't it simply apply to any prophet wether law giver or not? Does the arabic state rasul or nabi?

I will give you another hadith which is widely reported in serveral hadith books, and it say there will be no messanger (rasool) or prophet (nabi) after Muhammad.(saw). So even a non law giver prophet which is what mirza ghulam claims to be will not come after Muhammad (saw)

The Prophet of Allah (PBUH) affirmed: "The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me."(Tirmidhi, Kitab-ur-Rouya Babu Zahab-un- Nubuwwa, Musnad Ahmad, Marwiyat-Anas bin Malik)



Can you also give me a reference to that hadith you posted and what is the position of that hadith. Is it sahih, hasan etc and any commentary on it from major scholars.

When you say "on the precept of prophethood", I am assuming you mean they followed the way of the prophet. right?

Becuase among the khulafa e rashidun there were no prophets unlike Mirza Ghulam who claims to be a prophet.

Another question arises that if the line of prophets was not to cease and they would continue to come then why did Hazrat Abu Baker wage war against serveral people who claimed to be prophets in the aftermath of Muhammad (saw)'s demise?

Could you kindly present the hadith's Arabic please.

Dearest brother,

with respect to Ahmadis, there are three factors that sets them apart from other Sunni Muslims:

1. They believe that Hadhrat Isa (as) is passed away.
2. They believe that prophethood has not ceased.
3. They believe that the Mahdi and the Messiah would be the one and the same person.

If you don't mind, let us deal with the death of Hadhrat Isa (as) first. If this can be proven true then the rest of the Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim will most likely fall into place and it would be much more easier to prove how prophethood has not ceased. If, on the other hand, it is proven that Hadhrat Isa (as) is still alive then we don't need to delve any further.

What do you say? Don't you think it would be much more easier taking the route of whether Hadhrat Isa (as) is passed away or not? Solving this would solve the issue of whether prophethood has ceased or not, because it is clear based on ahadith that the Messiah would be a prophet.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

MWMN can you help us realize how we know he is the one?

I will, Insha Allah. This is my favorite hobby.