Why are Ahmadis considered non-Muslims in Pakistan

[abubaker]

"With the coming of Promised Messiah one difference (in the meaning of Kalima) has occured and that is that before the advent of Promised Messiah, in the meaning of 'Mohammad ur Rasoolullah' only Prophets of bygone days were included, BUT with the advent of Promised Messiah, ONE MORE PROPHET HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE MEANING OF MOHAMMADUR RASOOLULLAH......thus to enter in Islam it is still the same Kalima, the only difference is that the advent of Promised Messiah has added one more propet to its meaning...we don't need a new Kalima, because Promised Messiah is nothing seperate from Holy Prophet, as he says: 'saara wujoodi wujoodahoo (my person became his person)' and 'he who differentiates between me and Mustafa has not seen me and not recognises me'.....thus Promised Messiah is Mohammad Rasoolullah himself who has come again in tis world to spread Islam, therefore we do not need any new Kalima. Yes if someone else had come then we may have required it --- thus think all of you."

(KalimatAlFasl p.158 by Mirza Basheer Ahmad)
"As a result of the birth of the Promised Messiah (the Qadiani Mirza) a difference has cropped up (in the meaning of the Kalimah). Before the birth of the Promised Messiah (the Qadiani Mirza) in the world as a prophet, the words Muhammadur Rasoolu Llah) included in their meaning only such prophets as had preceded him; but after the incarnation of the Promised Messiah (the Qadiani Mirza) in the world as a prophet, one more prophet has been added to the meaning of Muhammadur Rasoolu Llah. Therefore on account of the incarnation of the Promised Messiah the Kalimah, God forbid, does not become abolished; it rather shines more brightly. In short, the same Kalima is (effective) even now for embracing Islam, with the only difference that the incarnation of the Promised Messiah (Mirza Qadiani) has added one more prophet to the meaning of Muhammadur Rasool Llah".

(Kalimatul Fasl, page 158, by Mirza Bashir Ahmad Qadiani)


"Moreover, even if we accept by supposing the impossible that the sacred name of the Gracious Prophet (pbuh) has been included in the sacred Kalimah because He is the Last of the Prophets, even then there is no harm and we do not need a new Kalima because the Promised Messiah is not a separate entity from the gracious Prophet as he (Mirza) himself says: "My being is exactly the being of Muhammadur Rasoolu Llah". Also, "One who discriminates between me and Mustafa has neither recognized me nor seen me". And the reason for this is Allah Almighty's promise that He would reincarnate "Khatam un Nabieen" in this world once more as a prophet as is evident from the verse "And others of them... Thus the Promised Messiah (Mirza of Qadian) is himself Muhammadur Rasoolu Llah, who has been incarnated in the world again to spread Islam. We do not, therefore, need any new Kalima. Albeit, a new Kalima would have been necessary, if some other person had been reincarnated instead of Muhammadur Rasool Llah. So contemplate!"

so what's this reincarnation deal, stink of Hinduism

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I think you got it wrong...

In the Holy Quran Allah talks about the spiritual coming of the Prophet (saw). As per the Holy Quran, there will be sahaba in the Latter Days also.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Were you there in the time of the Prophet (saw)?

No. Neither were you. So both of us have to rely on sources.

And you reject sources because they do not fit your personal desires. So you make your own religion.

[abubaker]

I think you got it wrong...

In the Holy Quran Allah talks about the spiritual coming of the Prophet (saw). As per the Holy Quran, there will be sahaba in the Latter Days also.

could you post the respective verses and if possible the tafsir as well

what do you mean i have got it wrong, its right there in plain English

any way i don't believe in this qadyani/ahmadi filth, no matter how many arguments you bring forth and how many ahadiths you fabricate or ayahs you misinterpret, i am not falling for it

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

No. Neither were you. So both of us have to rely on sources.

My point exactly, dear brother. It all comes to interpretation.

And you reject sources because they do not fit your personal desires. So you make your own religion.

And this could be said about you.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Can you show u where the Quran says so.

could you post the respective verses and if possible the tafsir as well

هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

وَآخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُوا بِهِمْ وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;(62:2)

As well as (to confer all these benefits upon) others of them, who have not already joined them: And He is exalted in Might, Wise. (62:3)

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Chapter : Account of the Dajjal and his features and what would be along with.

An-Nawwas b. Sam'an reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made a mention of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him to be insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant and we felt as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) in our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah's Messenger, you made a mention of the Dajjal in the morning (sometimes describing him) to be insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think as if he were present in some (near) part of the cluster of the date-palm trees. Thereupon he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among on, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not amongst you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah would take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said: For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). We said: Allah's Messenger, how quickly would he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He would come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion) and they would affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He would then give command to the sky and there would be rainfall upon the earth and it would grow crops. Then in the evening, their posturing animals would come to them with their humps very high and their udders full of milk and their flanks stretched. He would then come to another people and invite them. But they would reject him and he would go away from them and there would be drought for them and nothing would be left with them in the form of wealth. He would then walk through the waste, land and say to it: Bring forth your treasures, and the treasures would come out and collect (themselves) before him like the swarm of bees. He would then call a person brimming with youth and strike him with the sword and cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at a distance which is generally) between the archer and his target. He would then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness) and it would at this very time that Allah would send Christ, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who would smell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see. He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him. Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, he would say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions would then be besieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head of the ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to them insects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish like one single person. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will. Then Allah would send rain which no house of clay or (the tent of) camels' hairs would keep out and it would wash away the earth until it could appear to be a mirror. Then the earth would be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there would grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of persons would be able to eat that, and seek shelter under its skin and milch cow would give so much milk that a whole party would be able to drink it. And the milch camel would give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe would be able to drink out of that and the milch sheep would give so much milk that the whole family would be able to drink out of that and at that time Allah would send a pleasant wind which would soothe (people) even under their armpits, and would take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked would survive who would commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them.

LINK

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

It is mentioned four times that Hadhrat Isa (as) would be a prophet and that he will have companions.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

any way i don't believe in this qadyani/ahmadi filth, no matter how many arguments you bring forth and how many ahadiths you fabricate or ayahs you misinterpret, i am not falling for it

Actually, I am not here to convince you. I am simply here to show that the scholars today are not impartial.

[شمله ور خراساني]

It is mentioned four times that Hadhrat Isa (as) would be a prophet and that he will have companions.

Is he a new prophet after muhammad saww?

And does it state that his name will be mirza ghulam ahmad qadyani, the former sikh converted to Islam?

Does it also say that he will be a British stooge to tackle the militants opposing British colonial rule in India?

Momin, are you a Qadyani?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Is he a new prophet after muhammad saww?

1. Well, according to the Holy Quran prophets can continue to come--there is no verse saying that prophethood has ended.
2. If "seal" means that no more prophets can come, then it also means that no older prophet can come either.
3. If "seal" only means that only a new prophet cannot come, then Hadhrat Isa (as) will never come under the fold of Islam. According to the Holy Quran he was only sent to the Children of Israel.

And does it state that his name will be mirza ghulam ahmad qadyani, the former sikh converted to Islam?

Where is Hadhrat Isa (as)'s name in the Torah?
Where does it says that the Jewish Messiah, Hadhrat Isa (as), will be born of a virgin?

Does it also say that he will be a British stooge to tackle the militants opposing British colonial rule in India?

There is a hadith in Bukhari that mentions that the Messiah will postpone religious wars.

Momin, are you a Qadyani?

Do I have to be an Ahmadi in order to understand their beliefs and defend them?

[شمله ور خراساني]

1. Well, according to the Holy Quran prophets can continue to come--there is no verse saying that prophethood has ended.
2. If "seal" means that no more prophets can come, then it also means that no older prophet can come either.
3. If "seal" only means that only a new prophet cannot come, then Hadhrat Isa (as) will never come under the fold of Islam. According to the Holy Quran he was only sent to the Children of Israel.

Where is Hadhrat Isa (as)'s name in the Torah?
Where does it says that the Jewish Messiah, Hadhrat Isa (as), will be born of a virgin?



There is a hadith in Bukhari that mentions that the Messiah will postpone religious wars.



Do I have to be an Ahmadi in order to understand their beliefs and defend them?

you sound allot like one.

[Mujib]

It is mentioned four times that Hadhrat Isa (as) would be a prophet and that he will have companions.

It does not mention that he will be a prophet or messenger.

1. Well, according to the Holy Quran prophets can continue to come--there is no verse saying that prophethood has ended.
2. If "seal" means that no more prophets can come, then it also means that no older prophet can come either.
3. If "seal" only means that only a new prophet cannot come, then Hadhrat Isa (as) will never come under the fold of Islam. According to the Holy Quran he was only sent to the Children of Israel.

1. "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things" (33:40).

2. No one will come with the role of prophethood. Sayyidina `Isa (as) will not return as a prophet, with the role of prophethood. He will return as a Muslim in the Umma of our Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace).

3. He was sent as a messenger to the Children of Israel. He will return as a Muslim leader in the Umma of Islam.

[Roshina]

Do I have to be an Ahmadi in order to understand their beliefs and defend them?

OMG! They told you you're an Ahmadi, too, just because you defend them? Yeah, they go around calling me an Ismaili because I defend Ismailis, too! Don't worry about it. It doesn't mean anything, and they think we should be offended, but coming from them, I think it should be a compliment. (Well, at least I don't take it as an insult, anyway.)

Lemme quote from this exact same thread. Here.

lol qrratugai is an ismaili?? lol

Some of us here are extremely narrow-minded and ignorant, and so we think that the ONLY reason a person would support a group of people is if that person belongs to the belief system of that people. Such folly makes me shake my head in pity for the people who think this way, you see. They think that the only reason someone would support Ismailis is because that person is an Ismaili him/herself.

If I were an Ismaili and if I believed in allowing people like you and others to smother me in one little box, I would not at ALL shy from letting the world know about it. My nature, fortunately and however, is to know myself well enough to be proud of who and what I am -- religiously, socially, politically, nationally, and in every other way -- and never change my beliefs for others just because they think I'm wrong (or just because they're too narrow-minded to try to understand what I or others might believe), unless I'm proven wrong. So whatever I am, I'm very proud of it, just as you must be proud of your own beliefs. Nonetheless, the more oppressed a people are, the more I wanna stand with them; the more I study them so I know who they are and why they believe what they believe so that I can stand up with and for them when they're attacked by an ignorant lot of folks who think they're right and others are wrong.

And, so, I'm everything.

[inqilab]

Ghulam ahmad clearly stated he was "khatam ul anbiya"

He used "khatam" several times. And meant it in the same context. I will give some examples. Even though what i quoted before from his book should have been enough. But people have intense diseases of the heart.

From "roohani khazain" in "braheen ahmadiyya" vol 21 ghulam ahmad said:

"I was KHATAM-UL-WALAD (Seal of Son) for my father. NO CHILD WAS BORN AFTER ME."

So he clearly knew what he was saying. And in vol 18 he says he claimed ot be Allahs Messenger [s] himself

"Mohammadur Rasoolullah wal lazeena m'ahoo, ashiddao 'ala alkuffare rohamao bainahum' in this revelation Allah has named me Mohammed and Messenger as well."

So this is beyond sufficient. That ghulam ahmad was an impostor. And him along with his followers are all kuffar.