Death penalty for leaving Islam discussion.

[Roshina]

We also need to keep in mind that in the times of the Prophet pbuh, people were killed and slayed because that's how it was. They also married young girls, because thats how it was. They didn't have prisons, and war was the only feasible solution. But, now that we're educated, and have seen how horrible war is, we have other options. We don't kill people because they don't think like us. Freedom of thought! Just like you all have here. We are allowed to think what we want. Even in Islam, amongst you all, there are divisions and your own interpretation of Islam. Should we kill each other because we don't think alike? We all study from the same book, yet we see different.

And it is exactly for reasons like those that we have the blessing called ijtihad (defined often as "independent reasoning," or "re-interpreting those parts of Islam that are not in sync with universal standards at any point in time," etc.), but unfortunately, not many Muslims know about it. They've been fooled into believing that the "doors to ijtihad have been closed since a thousand years now" (something I read over and over and over and over and over in many texts on Islam I've read and am reading). The fact is, Muslim theologians, scholars, jurists, and other authorities have been using ijtihad and applying it to many matter -- including the jizya tax, which is the tax that non-Muslims are supposed to pay if they live in a Muslim country.

But this matter of apostasy has even nothing to do with ijtihad, since the Quran quite openly tells us to leave apostates alone. If it said kill them, then it'd make sense to use ijtihad; but it says to leave them alone and that "no compulsion in religion," so we don't eve need to use ijtihad.

[Roshina]

@ Sangar: LOL ... again, wrora, it's not about what the Quran is silent on. It's not about whether we should beleive in hadihs at all, since that's not the question here.

The question is, why are we turning to the hadiths that tell us to kill Muslims who leave Islam when the Quran says something totally opposite: "Leave them alone; God will deal with them on the day of judgment"?

If the Quran didn't say this, or if the Quran said that Muslims have the right to force their beliefs on others, or that Muslims have the right to kill people who are not Muslims, then I'd understand why we'd have to turn to hadiths. But when Quran is very clear on it, why are we ignoring ITS teaching?

[شمله ور خراساني]

@ Sangar: LOL ... again, wrora, it's not about what the Quran is silent on. It's not about whether we should beleive in hadihs at all, since that's not the question here.

The question is, why are we turning to the hadiths that tell us to kill Muslims who leave Islam when the Quran says something totally opposite: "Leave them alone; God will deal with them on the day of judgment"?

If the Quran didn't say this, or if the Quran said that Muslims have the right to force their beliefs on others, or that Muslims have the right to kill people who are not Muslims, then I'd understand why we'd have to turn to hadiths. But when Quran is very clear on it, why are we ignoring ITS teaching?

As I said before, Quran does not say that we are not allowed to kill apostates. This is your opinion. Why you keep repeating yourself?

[شمله ور خراساني]

I wait for someone to explain this verse to me, if Islam really does support killing apostates.

You have already made up your mind on this subject. Like on many other issues where you have been refuted. So why bother explaining you anything?

[Khushal Khan Khattak]

Yet, my dear brother, even the link you gave and the verse you showed it in says "lash them," not stone them.

That was a bad example on my part. Sorry!!

Clarification: the adulterers if un married get lashed. That is the Quranic part. Those who are married are stoned. That is the part not mentioned in there. The part about which Q pointed. However that is from Hadith. The Prophet carried this out.

Reason: I used that example to show Momin, Islam is not based upon what some of us born/raised in the West might feel to be right or humane. That in itself is warped view.


Now, again, onto the topic please!!!!.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes. Because you claim to know more about quran than others. yet you don't know arabic. I am not saying I am well versed in Arabic. But I just want to point out your arrogance.

You cannot go around telling others how they are ignorant of Quran while you, yourself have no sufficient knowledge of the language in which quran is written.

The whole issue of "holy" and "muqadas" was my mistake. This issue is taken into a different direction I did not intended.

But the point I try to bring across is to be less arrogant in going around telling others what you believe is correct, even dough you know as little or maybe even less as others do.

Have at least some decency to rely on serious scholarly pieces instead of going around making statements you cannot support and once you finally do go and take the effort to find support for your arguments, you end up posting an article from sunnipath that falsifies your initial claim.

I am going to pretend that you did not post this absurd thing.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

You start to sound like a broken record.

We've already established that evendough it is not sepcifically stated in quran that we should kill apostates, based on hadith this ruling is established and practiced by Muslims and is the opinion of all classical scholars.

You like to make people believe that for the past 1400 years Muslims were wrong. But ever since you read a few books and followed a few courses at "islamic studies" you now have more knowledge of Islam and Qur'an than those scholars and even companions of the prophet saww who do believe killing of apostates is necessary.

I think you should study the Holy Quran for yourself and not be the tool for someone else. You have no clue of laws of apostasy, yet you act tough just because your leaders have brainwashed you.

The onus is on you to provide reasoning why it is allowed.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I dont understand what's gotten into Momin, Momin!! do you like discussing new topics within a topic. Stick to the topic.

As for the topic, both Momin and Q, Sangar is right, basically this sums it up:



Please answer the highlighted red part!!! and Momin! try to accept when your'e wrong as being wrong. Would make it easier for all of us.

It has happened, no one is denying it. What we are saying that it is not Islamic. The Prophet (saw) never put anyone to death who left Islam in his time.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I think you should study the Holy Quran for yourself and not be the tool for someone else. You have no clue of laws of apostasy, yet you act tough just because your leaders have brainwashed you.

The onus is on you to provide reasoning why it is allowed.

Alhamdulilah, my brain is washed by Islam from every filth that was there. I am thankful to allah for making this possible.

And i praise allah for giving me a brain and allowing me to use it for good purposes.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

You make no sense whatsoever.

As I addressed this issue before, I don't see why you keep repeating yourself.

There are many things not mentioned in the qur'an, that does not mean we should reject them. I gave you a clear example on the prayer.

You claim those verses of qur'an you posted are expressing freedom of religion. Which is ridiculous. None of those verses say that everyone can become apostate and that nobody is allowed to touch them. This is your interpretation. And you do not know Arabic well enough, neither do you take the Tafasir of Quran in consideration.

You just rely on the english translation of some verses you found written in some article by a so-called scholar of Islamic studies who rejects popular held opinions among Muslims based on the consensus or the companions and the major scholars.

Your views and opinions are useless information since they are not grounded on consensus of the traditional and classic scholars. Bur rather come forth from articles and essays written by people who work for non-Muslim institutions like your "islamic studies" department.

Taking the life of someone is something serious. It should be mentioned in the Holy Quran.

Nonetheless, you can't even reason why is it allowed. If it is not mentioned explicitly in the Holy Quran, at least reason it from the Holy Quran--that is the least you should be able to do. I will give you some help, since you seem to be gasping for air.

[شمله ور خراساني]

It has happened, no one is denying it. What we are saying that it is not Islamic. The Prophet (saw) never put anyone to death who left Islam in his time.

How is it un-Islamic? Who are you to judge what is Islamic and what is un-Islamic? Which group of classical scholars have gathered upon these opinions you have?

None! So why should we listen to you?

Who are you to tell us that our scholars behvaed un-IslamicallY?

[Roshina]

As I said before, Quran does not say that we are not allowed to kill apostates.

Dude, it tells us to leave them alone (NOT to kill them) and that God will take care of them by taking them to hell (NOT that humans can take care of them by killing them) :| It tells us we cannot force our religion on people (NOT that you can kill people if they leave Islam).

So, yeah, please explain to me how this has somehow become synonymous with "kill those who leave Islam!" They're totally opposite teachings, yo.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

As I said before, Quran does not say that we are not allowed to kill apostates. This is your opinion. Why you keep repeating yourself?

However, it does allow for people to choose what they want to believe. Therefore, you would be creating a contradiction. Hence, there is no killing of apostates.

Do you even read the translation of the Holy Quran or do just show up to the dawah center?

[شمله ور خراساني]

Dude, it tells us to leave them alone and that God will take care of them :| it tells us we cannot force our religion on people.

Please explain to me HOW this has somehow become synonymous with "kill those who leave Islam!" They're totally opposite teachings, yo.

This is your opinion. And your opinion is useless information as you have no authority as a scholar of Islam neither do you have sufficient knowledge.

All you trying to do here with your buddy Momin is just be stubbornly presistent claiming something void because of your arrogance.

Not because you are sincere in your quest for truth. Otherwise you would have some decency and backed down. But you continue evendough your claim makes no sense what so ever saying all previous scholars were wrong and all previous scholars allowed killing apostates contradicting Qur'an.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

You have already made up your mind on this subject. Like on many other issues where you have been refuted. So why bother explaining you anything?

That is because you can't.