Death penalty for leaving Islam discussion.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Weak? Sangar brother, do you think ANY of your arguments in the religion section have ever been "strong"?

You think that this is a "strong" argument: "Kill apostates because hadiths say so (even though the Quran strictly says 'No Compulsion in Religion")? And the reason they're to be killed is that they left the right religion!!"

That's a strong argument? Why, don't you realize, most Muslims aren't Muslims out of choice; they're BORN into families who classify themselves as Muslims. So, why should people not be allowed to leave Islam if they want to?

Yes. It is weak. And my statements are strong. Because Muslims have killed apostates for the past 1400 years. Only in the last several decades as some Muslims have learned Kaafir beliefs and ideologies in Europe and North America is how the new interpretation of Quran has become known known not to kill apostates.

Try harder next time.

[شمله ور خراساني]

hahaahahah


Are you purposefully trying to bend the truth? Now I don't know what to call you but this is dishonesty at its best.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Read the title of the article.

Just in case your vision does not work: It says:

How to memorize the Holy Qur’aan

Yes. I did read the article. And i saw that on many other occasions they yse the word "holy quran" on Islam-QA.

That still does not answer my question. I wanted to know if you ever heard of Al Quran al Muqadas.

Before you become all excited, just reconsider your postion and think twice at what I am asking you.

[Roshina]

Yes. It is weak. And my statements are strong. Because Muslims have killed apostates for the past 1400 years.

Muslims have killed apostates for the past 1400 years, so that means it's okay ISLAMICALLY? ... How so, when the Quran says "Let there be no compulsion in religion"? (verse 2:256 and the tons of others we've posted in this same thread that scream "freedom of religion in the Quran, freedom of religion in the Quran!"

Only in the last several decades as some Muslims have learned Kaafir beliefs and ideologies in Europe and North America is how the new interpretation of Quran has become known known not to kill apostates.

Try harder next time.

What? WHERE in the Quran does God say to kill people who leave Islam? Where'd you get that "interpretation" stuff from, bro? I mean, if it was just one verse or two, or even five or so, I'd be like, okay, that's open to interpretation. But when it's soooo many, and over and over again, we're told "The Prophet is ONLY a messenger; his ONLY job is to spread the message" and that "there's no compulsion in religion" and so on, how do you get this idea of apostasy coming from the Quran?

Freedom of religion is a human's natural right. All humans are equally allowed to choose for themselves whatEVER religion they want, and if you can kill Muslims for leaving Islam, then non-Muslims who leave their religion and convert to Islam should be killed as well. Why not? Just because they're choosing a religion we ourselves follow? Sorry, not a good argument.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes. It is weak. And my statements are strong. Because Muslims have killed apostates for the past 1400 years. Only in the last several decades as some Muslims have learned Kaafir beliefs and ideologies in Europe and North America is how the new interpretation of Quran has become known known not to kill apostates.

Try harder next time.

These Muslims, like you, did it for political reasons. The Prophet (saw) never killed anyone who left Islam--this is all that matters.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes. I did read the article. And i saw that on many other occasions they yse the word "holy quran" on Islam-QA.

That still does not answer my question. I wanted to know if you ever heard of Al Quran al Muqadas.

Before you become all excited, just reconsider your postion and think twice at what I am asking you.

The point is in English 'holy' is not necessarily "muqaddas." Nonetheless, is there anything wrong with "muqaddas?"

[شمله ور خراساني]

These Muslims, like you, did it for political reasons. The Prophet (saw) never killed anyone who left Islam--this is all that matters.

Islam is a political system. The testimony of faith by itself is a political statement. Read a book about sahahadah and read about al walaa wa al baraa. YOu should get the message.

[Muslimah]

Lets just say that there are many countries who take Islam - mix it with their money and power, and call it Islam. People murder in the name of Islam, although if they were more educated with sunnah and Quran they would know they have NO right to kill.

About this death sentence nonsense - who is worthy of killing someone? The one who has no sins right? I highly doubt anyone would be worthy of this.

Islam is a religion of PEACE. If someone strays off the path, HELP THEM. Whats the difference between someone who says they don't follow Islam, and someone who drinks, has sex with random people, and does so much haram but still calls themselves Muslims because they're too stupid to know what they're missing out on? Because there are many things one can do that makes them a "non-believer" but because they were born Muslim, they still call themselves Muslim.

Some people on here have some really extreme - unislamic views! It blows me away!

[شمله ور خراساني]

The point is in English 'holy' is not necessarily "muqaddas." Nonetheless, is there anything wrong with "muqaddas?"

Yes. Because you claim to know more about quran than others. yet you don't know arabic. I am not saying I am well versed in Arabic. But I just want to point out your arrogance.

You cannot go around telling others how they are ignorant of Quran while you, yourself have no sufficient knowledge of the language in which quran is written.

The whole issue of "holy" and "muqadas" was my mistake. This issue is taken into a different direction I did not intended.

But the point I try to bring across is to be less arrogant in going around telling others what you believe is correct, even dough you know as little or maybe even less as others do.

Have at least some decency to rely on serious scholarly pieces instead of going around making statements you cannot support and once you finally do go and take the effort to find support for your arguments, you end up posting an article from sunnipath that falsifies your initial claim.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Muslims have killed apostates for the past 1400 years, so that means it's okay ISLAMICALLY? ... How so, when the Quran says "Let there be no compulsion in religion"? (verse 2:256 and the tons of others we've posted in this same thread that scream "freedom of religion in the Quran, freedom of religion in the Quran!"



What? WHERE in the Quran does God say to kill people who leave Islam? Where'd you get that "interpretation" stuff from, bro? I mean, if it was just one verse or two, or even five or so, I'd be like, okay, that's open to interpretation. But when it's soooo many, and over and over again, we're told "The Prophet is ONLY a messenger; his ONLY job is to spread the message" and that "there's no compulsion in religion" and so on, how do you get this idea of apostasy coming from the Quran?

Freedom of religion is a human's natural right. All humans are equally allowed to choose for themselves whatEVER religion they want, and if you can kill Muslims for leaving Islam, then non-Muslims who leave their religion and convert to Islam should be killed as well. Why not? Just because they're choosing a religion we ourselves follow? Sorry, not a good argument.

You start to sound like a broken record.

We've already established that evendough it is not sepcifically stated in quran that we should kill apostates, based on hadith this ruling is established and practiced by Muslims and is the opinion of all classical scholars.

You like to make people believe that for the past 1400 years Muslims were wrong. But ever since you read a few books and followed a few courses at "islamic studies" you now have more knowledge of Islam and Qur'an than those scholars and even companions of the prophet saww who do believe killing of apostates is necessary.

[Roshina]

About this death sentence nonsense - who is worthy of killing someone? The one who has no sins right? I highly doubt anyone would be worthy of this.

hahah! You can say THAT again

Whats the difference between someone who says they don't follow Islam, and someone who drinks, has sex with random people, and does so much haram but still calls themselves Muslims because they're too stupid to know what they're missing out on? Because there are many things one can do that makes them a "non-believer" but because they were born Muslim, they still call themselves Muslim.

Totally. And this totally explains why so many Muslims never make it known that they've left Islam; they pretend to be Muslim because they fear being killed for having made up their own mind.

It's really unfair and inhumane, and I fail to see WHAT is "Islamic" about it! You're right that some people have very un-Islamic views, even trying very, very hard to justify them using Islam :| And by Islam here, I mean hadiths that have NO Quranic basis.

[Roshina]

You start to sound like a broken record.

We've already established that evendough it is not sepcifically stated in quran that we should kill apostates, based on hadith this ruling is established and practiced by Muslims and is the opinion of all classical scholars.

You like to make people believe that for the past 1400 years Muslims were wrong. But ever since you read a few books and followed a few courses at "islamic studies" you now have more knowledge of Islam and Qur'an than those scholars and even companions of the prophet saww who do believe killing of apostates is necessary.

My dear brother who doesn't read things carefully:

The problem is not that the Quran never talks about apostasy (because it does) or never prescribes a punishment for it (though it doesn't). I'm aware of what the counter-argument to this argument would be IF it was my argument at all.

My argument is this: The Quran constantly gives freedom of religion and tells us that GOD will handle the people who leave Islam. If even the PROPHET wasn't allowed to kill anyone (because the Quran tells him over and over again that "Your only job is to spread the message God has given you; you cannot force anyone to accept your message") for leaving Islam, then who are the rest of Muslims after the Prophet to kill Muslims who leave Islam?

You really do need to read the Quran more often, bro, like the majority of Muslims who fall for whatever is told to them. And, no, before you make any assumptions like you always do, this is NOT to claim I'm better than you or any other Muslim or another human out there. It just means you read the Quran with meaning.

[Khushal Khan Khattak]

I dont understand what's gotten into Momin, Momin!! do you like discussing new topics within a topic. Stick to the topic.

As for the topic, both Momin and Q, Sangar is right, basically this sums it up:

You like to make people believe that for the past 1400 years Muslims were wrong. But ever since you read a few books and followed a few courses at "islamic studies" you now have more knowledge of Islam and Qur'an than those scholars and even companions of the prophet saww who do believe killing of apostates is necessary.

Please answer the highlighted red part!!! and Momin! try to accept when your'e wrong as being wrong. Would make it easier for all of us.

[شمله ور خراساني]

My dear brother who doesn't read things carefully:

The problem is not that the Quran never talks about apostasy (because it does) or never prescribes a punishment for it (though it doesn't). I'm aware of what the counter-argument to this argument would be IF it was my argument at all.

My argument is this: The Quran constantly gives freedom of religion and tells us that GOD will handle the people who leave Islam. If even the PROPHET wasn't allowed to kill anyone (because the Quran tells him over and over again that "Your only job is to spread the message God has given you; you cannot force anyone to accept your message") for leaving Islam, then who are the rest of Muslims after the Prophet to kill Muslims who leave Islam?

You really do need to read the Quran more often, bro, like the majority of Muslims who fall for whatever is told to them. And, no, before you make any assumptions like you always do, this is NOT to claim I'm better than you or any other Muslim or another human out there. It just means you read the Quran with meaning.

You make no sense whatsoever.

As I addressed this issue before, I don't see why you keep repeating yourself.

There are many things not mentioned in the qur'an, that does not mean we should reject them. I gave you a clear example on the prayer.

You claim those verses of qur'an you posted are expressing freedom of religion. Which is ridiculous. None of those verses say that everyone can become apostate and that nobody is allowed to touch them. This is your interpretation. And you do not know Arabic well enough, neither do you take the Tafasir of Quran in consideration.

You just rely on the english translation of some verses you found written in some article by a so-called scholar of Islamic studies who rejects popular held opinions among Muslims based on the consensus or the companions and the major scholars.

Your views and opinions are useless information since they are not grounded on consensus of the traditional and classic scholars. Bur rather come forth from articles and essays written by people who work for non-Muslim institutions like your "islamic studies" department.

[Muslimah]

We also need to keep in mind that in the times of the Prophet pbuh, people were killed and slayed because that's how it was. They also married young girls, because thats how it was. They didn't have prisons, and war was the only feasible solution. But, now that we're educated, and have seen how horrible war is, we have other options. We don't kill people because they don't think like us. Freedom of thought! Just like you all have here. We are allowed to think what we want. Even in Islam, amongst you all, there are divisions and your own interpretation of Islam. Should we kill each other because we don't think alike? We all study from the same book, yet we see different.

[Roshina]

As for the topic, both Momin and Q, Sangar is right, basically this sums it up...

You agree with him, but thank God we have our own minds to use, so we disagree with him. And quite strongly so, since we've used Quranic verses to back up our stance. You have not. In fact, in one post in this same thread, you said:

How about two people having sex with consent out side of marriage in the privacy of their home? The Quran says: stone them to death.

[24:2] http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_d...4&translator=5

Yet, my dear brother, even the link you gave and the verse you showed it in says "lash them," not stone them.

So, mind you, you're not backing up any of your stances well enough for us.

Please answer the highlighted red part!!!

My only response is: Just because Muslims do something doesn't mean it's Islamic or that Islam supports it. They were not wrong, since they used hadiths to justify their actions; but what they did was in their times acceptable because back then, kill people for the sake of religion was okay, so not many Muslim intellectuals stood up against it.

BUT! Today, when we know of something called freedom of religion, we see that the Quran supports it as well, in verses like 2:256, which says, "Let there be no compulsion in religion."

I wait for someone to explain this verse to me, if Islam really does support killing apostates.

and Momin! try to accept when your'e wrong as being wrong. Would make it easier for all of us

I know this post is obviously addressed to Momin, but I'm gonna reply since I share his belief that apostates should not be killed according to the Quran.

Well, Khushal Khan wrora, how is he wrong? He's wrong according to the hadiths that tell us to kill people who leave Islam, but he's NOT wrong according to the Quran. Refer to my post # 34 in which I give Quranic verses that are completely against killing people because they chose to leave Islam.

Manana.