Death penalty for leaving Islam discussion.

[Roshina]

Stoning to death was a Jewish custom, NOT AN ISLAMIC CUSTOM. Islam abrogated this Jewish law. The Prophet (saw) had to do it because of societal disorder and it was the only law available, the Quranic injunction was not revealed yet. Leaving Islam does not cause societal disorder, adultery does.

Yes. And there's another thing too:

What, ALL (or almost all?) of the hadiths that talk about stoning adulterers to death are for Jews who came to the Prophet and confessed their sin. The Prophet would punish them according to THEIR scripture because the Quran tells the Prophet that when he judges Christians and Jews, he should judge them using THEIR Books. The Bible, which consists of the Old and New Testaments, specifically says that adulterers should be stoned to death. The Quran does not say that.

Also, there's a hadith in which Caliph Umar is claimed to have said, "I fear there will come a time when people will say that the verse on stoning is not in the Quran!" The exact hadith goes:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, ‘We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book,' and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

For those who don't believe this, it is hadith # 816 in Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volum 8 (it's also found in Muslim's and Abu Dawud, but I don't have specific numbers for that yet.)

I must wonder ... was it REALLY in the Quran? If this hadith is really authentic like it's claimed, then is there reason for us to believe that perhaps OTHER verses may also have been removed from the Quran, if this one was really removed?

According to other reports, also classified as authentic, Aisha supposedly said that the verse on stoning adulterers to death WAS in the Quran, but one day, a goat came by her bed, snatched the verse from under her pillow where it was located, and ate it. (For reference, please see the Sunan of Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, hadith # 1934).

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

You people can't even back up your idea of punishment for apostasy yet you are telling us that we are wrong?

This is logical reasoning.

[Roshina]

Both Momin and Q are suffering from The Western University Do it yourself Logic and Reasoning Islam Mark 2.

There is a reason why Muslims shouldnt get degrees in Islamic Studies from teachers who are not even Muslims themselves.

When they do, this is what happens.

You have never been to an Islamic Studies institution in the west OR in the east, my dear brother So for you to make any claims against either is unjust.

You see, my teachers don't "teach" me anything. They direct me to various sources, and they do NOT force me to read ONE perspective only. I'm obligated to read many, including people I disagree with. Then I'm allowed to take my own course.

My teachers don't accept any argument from me unless I can back it up with sources and/or logic or reason. I don't get to tell them things like, "The Quran says this!" or "The hadiths say this!" I've to prove it and explain it.

Also, you're ASSUMING that my teachers are not Muslims, lol. My oh my! Wouldn't you like to know, most are converts to Islam while others are born Muslims.

Nonetheless, I'd prefer as my teachers non-Muslims who are WILLING to study Islam and other religions than Muslims who REFUSE to study other religions because they think that "heck, Islam is the only religion on earth. Period. I'm on the right path already, no need to study others" because they don't understand what the purpose of knowledge is.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Yes. And there's another thing too:

What, ALL (or almost all?) of the hadiths that talk about stoning adulterers to death are for Jews who came to the Prophet and confessed their sin. The Prophet would punish them according to THEIR scripture because the Quran tells the Prophet that when he judges Christians and Jews, he should judge them using THEIR Books. The Bible, which consists of the Old and New Testaments, specifically says that adulterers should be stoned to death. The Quran does not say that.

Also, there's a hadith in which Caliph Umar is claimed to have said, "I fear there will come a time when people will say that the verse on stoning is not in the Quran!" The exact hadith goes:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, ‘We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book,' and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

For those who don't believe this, it is hadith # 816 in Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volum 8 (it's also found in Muslim's and Abu Dawud, but I don't have specific numbers for that yet.)

I must wonder ... was it REALLY in the Quran? If this hadith is really authentic like it's claimed, then is there reason for us to believe that perhaps OTHER verses may also have been removed from the Quran, if this one was really removed?

According to other reports, also classified as authentic, Aisha supposedly said that the verse on stoning adulterers to death WAS in the Quran, but one day, a goat came by her bed, snatched the verse from under her pillow where it was located, and ate it. (For reference, please see the Sunan of Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, hadith # 1934).

OH! LOL!!!!

This trully reveals who you really are.

[Muslimah]

We don't want them to leave, but if they choose to, it is their choice.

im sorry...I agree with this 100%
I live to please Allah swt. I live for Allah swt. I don't think Islam teaches me (and this is in my knowledge and interpretation of Quran) to sit and judge others about their iman. The best we can do is educate, spread the world - this is what Quran teaches us to do. I actually know there are ayas that discuss how only Allah swt can judge, only Allah swt knows, and only Allah swt gives people what they deserve on the day of Judgement. If they choose to leave ISLAM - its THEIR loss..what the heck does that have to do with us? I feel sorry for them, I don't feel they need to die. Allah swt will give them what they deserve because it is HIM that takes care of this, NOT US!

[Roshina]

You people can't even back up your idea of punishment for apostasy yet you are telling us that we are wrong?

This is logical reasoning.

And the topic is changing back and forth, and they're going around in circles! They still haven't explained the verses that call for freedom of religion (not just to non-Muslims but to Muslims as well).

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

OH! LOL!!!!

This trully reveals who you really are.

HOLD ON!

Please show us that she and I are wrong.


Ooo..this should be fun.

[Roshina]

OH! LOL!!!!

This trully reveals who you really are.

Firstly, my dear brother, you lack debating skills. If you did, you would refrain from such language and a ton of exclamation marks and the constant use of "LOL" and telling people what they really are (what? what does that mean?).

Anyway, you don't know how to make an argument let alone how to support it. ALL you know how to do good is paste stuff from only one particular source.

Secondly, what? Those are authentic hadiths I posted above. Wanna explain them to me? If you knew what you were talking about here, you'd either justify them or refute them. So, do you?

[Roshina]

HOLD ON!

Please show her wrong.

See? I've NO idea what he means by that, lol. I didn't even pass a judgment on those hadiths (other than asking questions about them)! And he says, "This shows who you truly are."

If I had just made statements and said "hadiths say this and that" (like most of us here do) and NOT given reference, I'd understand why he'd say, "Oh, so this is who you really are," but this way, I'm totally lost!

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I know what he is referring to. He will not find it. He has just shot himself in the foot again.

Instead of fearing God, he is continuing to debate just because he does not want to admit he is wrong.

[Roshina]

You are convincing as ever.

The purpose of a discussion should not be to convince someone else to beleive our way, Sangar. Whoever is here for that reason should just go away because she/he will not get anywhere with such an aim. We should be here to learn from each other, to understand a perspective better (that of our own as well as someone else's).

We should only be presenting facts along with our own reasons when necessary, and let people decide for themselves whether to accept it or reject it. As one of my favorite quotes ever says, "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." So, if you're educated, continue this discussion with us WITHOUT feeling as though we are here to convince you that we're right and you're wrong, or vicer versa. And if YOU are here to convince me/us that you're right, lemme remind you: Qrratugai doesn't get convinced very easily; you gotta work RRREALLY hard and support your argument VERY well to convince me -- or at least to hear from me "Good argument, bro! ... though I'm not convinced."

But I'd hope you're not here for that.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Firstly, my dear brother, you lack debating skills. If you did, you would refrain from such language and a ton of exclamation marks and the constant use of "LOL" and telling people what they really are (what? what does that mean?).

Anyway, you don't know how to make an argument let alone how to support it. ALL you know how to do good is paste stuff from only one particular source.

Secondly, what? Those are authentic hadiths I posted above. Wanna explain them to me? If you knew what you were talking about here, you'd either justify them or refute them. So, do you?

I will. Let me just consult the right sources. Because you way out of line here and you are committing a sin by accusing the companions of the prophet saww!

[شمله ور خراساني]

The purpose of a discussion should not be to convince someone else to beleive our way, Sangar. Whoever is here for that reason should just go away because she/he will not get anywhere with such an aim. We should be here to learn from each other, to understand a perspective better (that of our own as well as someone else's).

We should only be presenting facts along with our own reasons when necessary, and let people decide for themselves whether to accept it or reject it. As one of my favorite quotes ever says, "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." So, if you're educated, continue this discussion with us WITHOUT feeling as though we are here to convince you that we're right and you're wrong, or vicer versa. And if YOU are here to convince me/us that you're right, lemme remind you: Qrratugai doesn't get convinced very easily; you gotta work RRREALLY hard and support your argument VERY well to convince me -- or at least to hear from me "Good argument, bro! ... though I'm not convinced."

But I'd hope you're not here for that.

That's funny coming from you who only represents lies here.

[Muslimah]

"Do you know better, or does Allah?" (Al baqarah -140) Apparently Sangar does...

"And He is the All-Knower of everything" (baqarah -29)

"And He is Able to do all things" (hadeed - 2)

"He does what He intends (wills)" (al buruj: 16)

"If you disbelieve, then verily, Allah is not in need of you, He likes not disbelief for His slaves. And if you are grateful (by being believers), He is pleased therewith for you." (As - zumar - 7)

"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down (the Qu'ran) to Our slave (Mohammad), then produce a Surah of the like thereof; and call your witnesses besides Allah, if you are truthful. But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers." (Baqarah: 23-24)
*I may note here that if they are strayed off the path, it seems Allah challenges them rather than says to kill them....we should do the same. \

Even the more "harsh" verses:
"Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day" (at-tawbah - 29)
I see the word fight..not kill. But seeing that Islam brings peace, FIGHT most likely means challenge, debate, help, enlighten...I don't see anything about taking lives.

"There is NO compulsion in religion." (2:256)

Do I need to add more? i can...

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sangar has no way out. He is purposely standing his ground. He is afraid of losing credibility as a recruiter. He has to represent himself as a well versed person otherwise he won't be able to convince innocent people that he is right.