Death penalty for leaving Islam discussion.

[Roshina]

You sure do love to defend your new partner in crime, don't you?

Your partner in crime told that Aisha radiallhu anha said such and so. This story does not come from the Qur'an, does it? LOL

I support anyone who I believe is on the right. There's a reason I don't support everyone.

Yes, there are some hadiths that are clearly acceptable and don't need to be argued over -- not that we necessarily need Aisha to tell us that the Prophet followed the Quran, though, since that should be obvious.

And any hadith in which Aisha says that is not contrary to the Quran because the Quran, too, tell us that the Prophet does not do or say anything other than what the Quran tells him to do/say, that nothing he tells us is made up and is FROM the Quran/God, which means that any hadith that is not in sync with the Quran cannot be from the Prophet.

[Roshina]

I was also told that leaving Islam is like treason. Is it not that true?

Think about, Jasmine khorey. How is it treason? What IS treason?

If leaving Islam is treason, then can for Christians to leave Christianity also not be treason? Then they, too, should be killed for committing treason?

Same thing with Hindus, Jews, and all others, no?

But according to those who justify it as treason, only with ISLAM is it treason... and I don't see why.

So, unless you have thought about this thoroughly and made a conclusion and then agree on your own terms, using your own mind, that Muslims who leave Islam should be killed, I want to encourage you to question what you're told is "Islamic" especially when it has no Quranic grounds.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sure, not a problem. How do you explain apostasy when the following Quranic verses convey a whole different message:

- Verse 2:217: "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offense); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein."

(Where does it say to kill then? Don't you think God would simply have commanded the Prophet to kill them in this very verse?)

- 5:54: "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things."

- 3:90: "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray."

- 15:2-3: "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."

- "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"

- 27:92: "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"

- 10:99"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!"

- 2454: "The messenger's duty is only to preach the message."

Finally, perhaps the MOST important one:

- 2:256: "Let there be no compulsion in religion for truth stands out from falsehood."

So, was the Prophet not a mere "warner," a "messenger only"? Wasn't it his job to simply PREACH to the world what God told him to preach? If HE had no right by the Quran to kill anyone who rejected his beliefs or who left Islam, who are WE - the rest of us Muslims - to kill people just because they left Islam?

Now do you see what I mean about certain Muslims who favor hadiths to the Quran? Why turn to hadiths in talks of apostasy when the Quran has made it clear that they are to be left alone, that there is NO compulsion in religion, that are NOT to force them to believe?

LOL!!!! There is no contradiction there. The reason why you are saying that Hadith contradicts Qur'an is because you want to pretend asif the ayat you posted actually speak out against killing of apostates, and that those ayat claim that it is okay for everyone to apostate. Which is absolutely not true. Those ayat are about a number of issues and are general warning to those who disbelief. They are not specifically revealed in defence of apostates.

Ahadith only adds more to the knowledge already established in the Qur'an. This is a typical position often taken by people who are not being truthful.

Typical false claim made by those who reject hadith and reject the practices of Islam we have taken from the teachings of prophet muhammad saww.

Yet this issue is much greater than the problem of apostasy. The real problem is that you and your likes hand-pick what to accept and what to reject from Islam.

In qur'an no-where does it say anything specific about conditions and requirements of prayer. Yet, the prayer is after testimony of faith, the most important aspect of Islam.

Would we all follow the same reasoning you are trying to enforce in this debate, we would know very little about the prayer. Since the ayat in Qur'an do not mention how many rakat each prayer is, and how it specifically is supposed to be preformed.

Overall, I can say that the reason why you are doing this, is not because you are sincerely interesting in Islam. But rather helping disblievers and helping less knowledgeable muslims to become doutbful.

OH! And I asked you to point out who exactly is prefering hadith over Qur'an. You still have not answered that.

[Roshina]

Whuh? How's that not a contradiction? Do you read the Quran at ALL? It tells you that people who leave Islam, then come back to Islam, then leave Islam - leave them alone for God will take care of them in the hereafter! What right do *you*, a normal human being, have over them?

Besides, all I asked you, wrora, was to explain those verses to us and to justify the death penalty using the Quran. We're waiting.

OH! And I asked you to point out who exactly is prefering hadith over Qur'an. You still have not answered that.

You must be kidding me, lol. :O I'd NEVER lower myself to that level, my dear brother - calling people out like that! They know who they are.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Think about, Jasmine khorey. How is it treason? What IS treason?

If leaving Islam is treason, then can for Christians to leave Christianity also not be treason? Then they, too, should be killed for committing treason?

Same thing with Hindus, Jews, and all others, no?

But according to those who justify it as treason, only with ISLAM is it treason... and I don't see why.

So, unless you have thought about this thoroughly and made a conclusion and then agree on your own terms, using your own mind, that Muslims who leave Islam should be killed, I want to encourage you to question what you're told is "Islamic" especially when it has no Quranic grounds.

What a silly argument. Christianity and Hinduism are void. Who cares what rules applry to those religions who are nullfied and void after revelation of Qur'an and the arrival of the final messenger?

[Roshina]

What a silly argument. Christianity and Hinduism are void. Who cares what rules applry to those religions who are nullfied and void after revelation of Qur'an and the arrival of the final messenger?

Indeed. "Islam is the ONLY Correct religion on earth, and therefore, all people should convert to Islam but no one can leave Islam. If they leave, they should be killed -- because how can they NOT see that Islam is the correct religion?!!"

Zakir Naik makes teh same argument :p "It's okay if Muslims preach their religion in non-Muslims' land; in fact, they MUST! They must also build mosques and such. But non-Muslims? No! They're absolutely forbidden from preaching their religion in Muslim land and from building churches, temples, etc., because we Muslims are the only humans on the right path; all others are artificial religions that are not to be tolerated."

I can TOTALLY see why this makes a lot of sense to certain "Muslims."
Good God, we must be at the apogee of our ignorance and intolerance here, eh. Don't we realize that just as OUR religion is right to us, other people's religion is right to them, too?

Never mind. That's not for everyone to understand. ~sighs~

[شمله ور خراساني]

Indeed. "Islam is the ONLY Correct religion on earth, and therefore, all people should convert to Islam but no one can leave Islam. If they leave, they should be killed -- because how can they NOT see that Islam is the correct religion?!!"

Zakir Naik makes teh same argument :p "It's okay if Muslims preach their religion in non-Muslims' land; in fact, they MUST! They must also build mosques and such. But non-Muslims? No! They're absolutely forbidden from preaching their religion in Muslim land and from building churches, temples, etc., because we Muslims are the only humans on the right path; all others are artificial religions that are not to be tolerated."

I can TOTALLY see why this makes a lot of sense to certain "Muslims."
Good God, we must be at the apogee of our ignorance and intolerance here, eh. Don't we realize that just as OUR religion is right to us, other people's religion is right to them, too?

Never mind. That's not for everyone to understand. ~sighs~

Yes. And believing that Islam is not the ultimate truth and allowing others to spread their religion is clearly KUFR.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangar I agree with you, but how do you honestly agree that Islam should have a death penalty for those who leave?

Killing apostates is not a simple matter any muslim can embark on because he or she "thinks" someone is an apostate.

Thousands of pages have been written by most prominent scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and others explaining how to deal with this issue.

I do agree that someone who leaves Islam usually turns to bashing muslims and insulting Islam. And therefore I do think that the shari'i solution for killing them is justified.

Because what I have seen from some relatives who have disbelieved, or the famous disbelievers such as Salman Rushdie, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Pir Rokhan, Ehsan Jami, Taslima Nasreen etc, they pose a threat to Islam because they try to make Islam look as something evil and spread hate in the hearts of other non-Muslims for Islam and muslims.

[Khushal Khan Khattak]

This discussion is already over. The Quran and Hadith are in clear synergy about it. The point of view of Sangar, and one post by Qrratugai is sufficient to prove why Muslims have always punished apostates by death, ever since the time of the Holy Prophet.

There is nothing wrong or cruel about it. That is why people who want to convert are first asked to think it over many many times, since it isnt a light decision. Religion is no to be taken lightly.

Is spending an eternity in hell a light matter??

@ Momin: just because you think this is cruel will not change the truth. How about two people having sex with consent out side of marriage in the privacy of their home? The Quran says: stone them to death.

[24:2] http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_d...4&translator=5

God further says, feel not pity for them, since they broke the law of God himself and as far as pity and love is considered your'e love for nay human being or and life can never be greater than the love of God for his creations.

Islam is not about what we feel or think, do that and what you are actually saying is that Islam is made by man. It isnt, it is God's (Allah's) laws and rules, not man's.

The Christians or any other group dont have any heavenly laws, we do, now start honoring and respecting it so, and dont mix in your'e own likes and dis likes.

[Roshina]

The problem is ... who decides what an apostate is? What if scholars disagree? Whose opinion should we trust then?
Who defines what an apostate who hurts Islam is? What if they give evdience for whatever they say USING the Quran and hadith, or certain interpretations? Why should they be killed?

Why's there something for killing peaceful Muslims who leave Islam but NOTHING for violent Muslims who kill Muslims, bomb people's houses, burn down schools and libraries, and so on? What prevents us from explaining why these people should be killed?

[Roshina]

How about two people having sex with consent out side of marriage in the privacy of their home? The Quran says: stone them to death. God further says, feel not pity for them, since they broke the law of God himself and as far as pity and love is considered your'e love for nay human being or and life can never be greater than the love of God for his creations.

Whenever people say, "The Quran says this and that," my instinctual response is: "Quote the Quran where it says that." So, I'm gonna ask you, dear brother, where the Quran says to stone to death people who have sex out of wedlock.

Because as far as the QURAN is concerned, here:

Verse 24:2: "(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement."

So, yeah, have no mercy on them, etc. And you need witnesses as well.

It's not the QURAN that says to stone them to death; it's hadiths that say that. There's a difference -- thank God.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sangar,

where does it say in the Holy Quran that you have to kill an apostate?

You won't accept anyone's reasoning, at least, put forward your own reasoning, from the Holy Quran.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

@ Momin: just because you think this is cruel will not change the truth. How about two people having sex with consent out side of marriage in the privacy of their home? The Quran says: stone them to death. God further says, feel not pity for them, since they broke the law of God himself and as far as pity and love is considered your'e love for nay human being or and life can never be greater than the love of God for his creations.

Wrong. No where in the Holy Quran it says this.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sorry to say, but most of you do not understand the Holy Quran. Most of you are regurgitating whatever you heard in Jumu'ah Prayers.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sorry to say, but most of you do not understand the Holy Quran. Most of you are regurgitating whatever you heard in Jumu'ah Prayers.

This is quite funny to see you saying other do not understand qur'an and yet, you call Qur'an as "holy".