Death penalty for leaving Islam discussion.

[ozymandias]

Death Penalty Could Await Man Who Broke Free from Islam


Not to get side tracked, but here is another case of 'Islamic morals' being problematic. I would be interested in people's opinions about a law like this one -- and not just terrorist responses to free speech. Should this man be allowed to live as he wants under Islamic rule? If so, what do you all think the penalty according to Islam is for apostasy?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Death Penalty Could Await Man Who Broke Free from Islam


Not to get side tracked, but here is another case of 'Islamic morals' being problematic. I would be interested in people's opinions about a law like this one -- and not just terrorist responses to free speech. Should this man be allowed to live as he wants under Islamic rule? If so, what do you all think the penalty according to Islam is for apostasy?

Dear ozy,

many Muslims who rely blindly on their clergy would agree that apostates should be killed.

This is not an Islamic act, but when you have people who are not well versed with the Holy Quran they will beg to differ--even to the point of calling those who object the killing of apostates kuffaar.

This is the Maududian mouse-trap: you can come in but you can't leave.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Nope! Each to his or her own. If they want to leave Islam it is their choice. Period. No ifs or buts about it.

[Azmatullah]

^^ Please provide us with the evidence from Qur'an and Sunnah. We shouldn't just take people's word for it when it comes to Islamic matters, without asking for proof. Thanks in advance.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

The onus lies on those who say that apostates should be killed--not the other way around!

If Muslims believe that apostates should be killed then they must have a valid reasoning from the Holy Quran. As such if apostates should be killed then it must be a rule which can easily be derived from the Holy Quran. Therefore, those who are the proponents the of killing of an apostate should justify their stance.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I will first allow those who believe this to be an injunction of the Holy QUran to justify their stance. Thereafter, I will raise the problem with this ideology.

[Admin Khan]

I felt as though this deserved its own topic.

If any concerns or objections, Do not hesitate to contact me.

[karachipashtun]

MWMN,
[Qur'an 9:11] of the Qur'an sanction death for apostasy. The argument given by Mawdudi[27] for these verses is:

"The following is the occasion for the revelation of this verse: During the pilgrimage (hajj) in A.H. 9 God Most High ordered a proclamation of an immunity. By virtue of this proclamation all those who, up to that time, were fighting against God and His Apostle and were attempting to obstruct the way of God's religion through all kinds of excesses and false covenants, were granted from that time a maximum respite of four months. During this period they were to ponder their own situation. If they wanted to accept Islam, they could accept it and they would be forgiven. If they wanted to leave the country, they could leave. Within this fixed period nothing would hinder them from leaving. Thereafter those remaining, who would neither accept Islam nor leave the country, would be dealt with by the sword." In this connection it was said: "If they repent and uphold the practice of prayer and almsgiving, then they are your brothers in religion. If after this, however, they break their covenant, then war should be waged against the leaders of kufr (infidelity). Here "covenant breaking" in no way can be construed to mean "breaking of political covenants". Rather, the context clearly determines its meaning to be "confessing Islam and then renouncing it". Thereafter the meaning of "fight the heads of disbelief" ([Qur'an 9:11]) can only mean that war should be waged against the leaders instigating apostasy."

What do you have to say about that?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes, I know what Maududi has said. As I mentioned this is known as the Maududian mouse-trap.

However, this covenant has nothing to do with professing your Islamic faith. It had to do with the covenant that existed between the Muslims and disbelievers. The disbelievers violated the terms of the covenant and attacked the Muslims and as such it was permitted to fight back.

Simple.

[karachipashtun]

But brother its like treason isnt it? Its followed by majority of the Muslims.

[Roshina]

Forget Mawdudi and forget other "scholars" who support death penalty as punishment for Muslim apostates (Muslims who leave Islam). We have evidence from hadiths (in Bukhari and Muslim) - and they're classified as authentic.

Please bear in mind that the Quran NEVER prescribes punishment for apostates, though. In fact, it constantly reminds us that people have the freedom of religion, and who can forget "Let there be no compulsion in religion"? (2:256)

Islamic history tells us that during the reign of Caliph Abu Bakkar, many, many apostates were killed. Muslim historians have attempted to justify this by saying, "Well, yeah, of course! Because they were betraying Muslims! They deserved to be killed! And Muslims weren't that many, so it was okay to kill them."

Moreover, Muslim theologians in the Middle Ages questioned the idea of "apostasy" by asking over and over what it meant. Who can be labeled an apostate, they wondered. And some concluded that because so many hadiths emphasize the importance of praying 5 times a day, then anyone who does NOT pray 5 times a day can be considered an apostate. And that, to them, meant that they should be killed.

Anyway, we all should know by now that hadiths give a different ruling on many things, including apostasy and adultery. But the focus of this thread is apostasy, so here. Below are some hadith that tell us that anyone who leaves Islam is to be killed.

- "Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."(Bukhari, Volume 9, hadith # 17)

- Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." (Bukhari, Volume 9, hadith # 57)

- Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and hen reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said,"I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers. (Bukhari volume 9, hadith # 58)

- 'Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported Allah's Messenger as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community." (Muslim, Book 16, Number 4152)

I'd quote Imam Malik (one of the four major Sunni jurists) and many other scholars around and after his time, BUT I think that since most of us trust hadiths more than what people say, there's no need. Nonethelesss, some claim that you can kill apostates ONLY if they attempt to harm Muslims or are being oppressive to Muslims (e.g., an oppressive ex-Muslim ruler of a Muslim community/nation), but that's like common sense because the Quran tells us that anyone who creates mischief in land should be killed.

[Roshina]

But brother its like treason isnt it? Its followed by majority of the Muslims.

How is it treason? And just because the "majority" of Muslims follow it does not make it necessarily Islamic or acceptable.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

But brother its like treason isnt it? Its followed by majority of the Muslims.

No, dearest brother!

Why do you think the Meccans had put all of their forces together to fight the Muslims? Why do you think that Muslims were given a hard time?

It simply had to do with them accepting Islam.

Now, imagine how hypocritical it would be of Islam to do the same for those who leave Islam, the religion that their are born with? The baby did not have a choice in which religion he or she should be born in. Also, according to the Holy Quran those who leave and come back and then leave again will be judge based on what religion they died. Now, imagine if they are killed the second they leave. What opportunity would they have to return? According to the Holy Quran, the door is always open.

We, in Islam, are told to preach the message of Islam to the world and are asked to pray for those who are not Muslim so that they might accept Islam. Imagine those new converts who have to face the hardships of a new faith and being ostracized by their family members and even threatened to be killed? What would we say to them? Have patience! And if they are killed for accepting Islam, we say: he or she is a shaheed!

Islam is not an illogical religion. Just don't follow your "scholars" blindly. Otherwise, it become very illogical.

[Roshina]

The problem in my mind is this:

It's difficult to decide that a hadith that has been accepted and classified as "authentic" is NOT authentic or doesn't apply anymore because how would we pick and choose? (I have a list of criteria, which include that if the Quran is either silent on it or say A while the hadiths say B or -A, then it's not authentic even if scholars have determined it to be authentic, but that's not the majority view.)

We should also see how interpretation plays a role in this punishment. See, many people who support the punishment for apostasy cite the Quran for their purpose. Verse 5:33 says (I'll give several translations):

YUSUF ALI:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

PICKTHAL:
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

ARBERRY: This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement,

SHAKIR:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
(More translations at this link.)

So, my point is: Unfortunately, the part about "those who strive to make mischief in the land" has been interpreted to mean "apostates." It is believed that anyone who leaves Islam is a mischievous individual who is going to corrupt Muslims, even if he is a peaceful being who doesn't care what people believe.

Do I support this interpretation? Absolutely not. But since "mischief" and "corruption" aren't defined IN the Quranic verse, it's open to interpretation.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Why death is the punishment for Apostasy

Alslamualik

This question has bees asked several time from non-Muslims and I want to find an answer: Why When the Muslim convert to another religion(Murtad) he/she should be killed?


Praise be to Allaah.

Your question may be answered by the following points:

(1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).
(2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.
(3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.
(4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.
(5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?
(6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?
We ask Allaah for safety and health. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad .



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