Who is a kafir--where do we draw the line?

[Roshina]

Sangar Jana

Who is a Muslim in your eyes? You have mocked everyone here who does not conform to you beliefs?

Sangar, is sunnipath.com Muslim?,

Yeah :| Everyone's a kafir according to him. Everyone who disagrees with him on ANYTHING. According to Mullah Sangar, I'm an Ismaili because I can defend Ismailis (never mind my own beliefs!), you're an Ahmadi because you can defend Ahmadi beliefs (never mind your own beliefs! Just the fact that you know Ahmadi Islam as WELL as non-Ahmadi Islam well enough is enough to make people who lack all understanding to believe that "the ONLY way MWMN would defend Ahmadis is if he's an Ahmadi Muslim himself!" You see how shallow we can get?), and everyone else is just a heretic, murtad, kafir, munafiq, etc., etc.

Mind you, he's even labeled Mujeeb bro as well! Talk about extremists never respecting differences of opinions! And Mujeeb has yet to call him a bad word, insult him, or say anything bad to him. It's really sad.

Oh, btw, MWMN, why do you need his permission to believe what you wanna believe? (Referring to your comment about "but allow me to believe what I want.") I mean, knowing his mentality, we can certainly guess what his response would be, yeah? "Why should I let you believe what you wanna believe, when you're not of the same sect and sub-sect that I'm a part of?" (He'll never say what sect or sub-sect he's from, but we can guess from his views.) If he can believe what he wants to believe and claim it's the right path, then so can you and the rest of the world. So what that he thinks he's the only one right? He won't say it out loud that he's the only one right, but so far, everyone -- NO exceptions! -- who has expressed even minor disagreements with him has been labeled kuffar or something similar by Sangar. So why should his opinion matter to any of us? Let him call us whatever he wants.

[Roshina]

And hypocricy is your practice. and again, neither is that name calling.

And you lied. Over and over again.

Stop being a drama queen.

C'mon, Sangar Are you serious, telling other people they're being hypocrites and drama queens? Do we not have enough evidence to believe (no, wait... KNOW) that it's exactly the other way around? Of course we do. I'd go compiling all your posts to prove my point, but there's no need for that since those who know what I'm talking about know what I mean.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yeah :| Everyone's a kafir according to him. Everyone who disagrees with him on ANYTHING. According to Mullah Sangar, I'm an Ismaili because I can defend Ismailis (never mind my own beliefs!), you're an Ahmadi because you can defend Ahmadi beliefs (never mind your own beliefs! Just the fact that you know Ahmadi Islam as WELL as non-Ahmadi Islam well enough is enough to make people who lack all understanding to believe that "the ONLY way MWMN would defend Ahmadis is if he's an Ahmadi Muslim himself!" You see how shallow we can get?), and everyone else is just a heretic, murtad, kafir, munafiq, etc., etc.

Mind you, he's even labeled Mujeeb bro as well! Talk about extremists never respecting differences of opinions! And Mujeeb has yet to call him a bad word, insult him, or say anything bad to him. It's really sad.

Oh, btw, MWMN, why do you need his permission to believe what you wanna believe? (Referring to your comment about "but allow me to believe what I want.") I mean, knowing his mentality, we can certainly guess what his response would be, yeah? "Why should I let you believe what you wanna believe, when you're not of the same sect and sub-sect that I'm a part of?" (He'll never say what sect or sub-sect he's from, but we can guess from his views.) If he can believe what he wants to believe and claim it's the right path, then so can you and the rest of the world. So what that he thinks he's the only one right? He won't say it out loud that he's the only one right, but so far, everyone -- NO exceptions! -- who has expressed even minor disagreements with him has been labeled kuffar or something similar by Sangar. So why should his opinion matter to any of us? Let him call us whatever he wants.

I am beginning to realize that he is not well. I bet you his family is against him.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sangar no one here is your enemy.

No one is his enemy, however, I think his mental health should be revised. For someone who left Islam and came back and claimed ignorance to call everyone a kafir who does not adhere to his way is pretty depressing.

[king-zazai]

a kafrr is a kafrr we should not be afraid 2 say this word but just take caution in some cases and if ur a kafr than that is wat u r 4 exaplme modern islam they reject half of wat islam teaches this makes u a kafrr like qurtabi and alot of other ppl

sufi= kafrr
shia=kafr
and ALOT of other sects ALL equal kafrrr


there is no line 2 be drawn buddy u r wat u r and u well get wat u desreve in after life

[Roshina]

Sangar no one here is your enemy.

MWMN has several times said he loves you a lot. yet you dont get it wrora.

I know this is only between you and him, but I want to respond anyway.

Do you notice the way he talks to MWMN and the way MWMN talks to him?
Do you notice how he talks to Mujeeb and how Mujeeb talks to him?

I have NO idea where either of them get the patience to deal with people like Sangar who are repeatedly rude to them.

You see, when WE see everyone as our enemies, then we come to believe that OTHERS are our enemies, though they may not be in reality. But we have such a negative mentality, such a negative attitude towards everyone who doesn't agree with us or everyone whose beliefs we consider false that we assure our own selves that we're hated, we're disliked, we're not appreciated, we're disrespected -- though it's sometimes obviously the other way around. We just want to make it SEEM like we're disliked, so we announce it to the world over and over. We allow our own selves to say whatever we want, to address others in whatever manner we want (be it good or bad), but when others do the same to us and put us in the lowest position we truly belong in, then we start complaining and saying that we're just hated.

It may not be the case in reality, but that's what we say to the world in a futile attempt to get attention. Simple.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

^I think it is deeper than that. I hope he can open up to us and discuss his life. I think the problem lies there.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

a kafrr is a kafrr we should not be afraid 2 say this word but just take caution in some cases and if ur a kafr than that is wat u r 4 exaplme modern islam they reject half of wat islam teaches this makes u a kafrr like qurtabi and alot of other ppl

sufi= kafrr
shia=kafr
and ALOT of other sects ALL equal kafrrr


there is no line 2 be drawn buddy u r wat u r and u well get wat u desreve in after life

I hope you know that his is only based on your own interpretation.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

No its nothing to do with that. If you talk to him, he is a really nice guy. He cares a lot about us deep down in his heart. its just the way he sometimes comes across is not good.

Do you love him too?

Of course, I love him. He is a Muslim.

People are nice, however, when people are extreme when it comes to religion it goes deeper than what is apparent on the surface. He hates everyone who does not conform to him and his ideology.

[Roshina]

Of course, I love him.

But... discussions are discussions. Even if you DIDN'T love him or someone else here, would it mean you can't or shouldn't have a discussion with her/him?

We need to stop expecting everyone we come across to love us. There's more to life than loving everyone you meet. If someone thinks he's hated just because he hates everything and everyone else around him, that's not anyone else's problem to handle.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Good point.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

But... discussions are discussions. Even if you DIDN'T love him or someone else here, would it mean you can't or shouldn't have a discussion with her/him?

We need to stop expecting everyone we come across to love us. There's more to life than loving everyone you meet. If someone thinks he's hated just because he hates everything and everyone else around him, that's not anyone else's problem to handle.

The guy in question is a moulvi living in the Netherlands. That's Geert Wilders country. It's almost like living in the Bible country. Now Geert Wilders has, as his supporters, thinly veiled racists who have now jumped on the anti-Islam bandwagon but what they really are, and this truth is very easily evident, can be classified as a new reborn streak of neo-Nazis. A lot of Dutch have just about had it with non-white and non-Dutch migrants.

Hate breeds hate. Perhaps that is why he is so full of anger.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

I've noticed one thing about Sangar

Is that he stereotypes people alot.

Like for example he says Pashtun Nationalists committ alot of sin and make friends with non muslims then he never mentions how his own Wahabi scholars hold hands with bush and visit the west to do business with their non muslim friends etc.

He calls people Kaffirs to make himself feel spiritually higher than us all, but in reality he shud be lucky that dutch laws protect him or he would have been lynched by angry shias and sufis a very long time ago.

I am sure in your Holy Quran it says only Allah decides who is Kaffir and who is not as he is the judge at the end.

He has been exploited by these Wahabists but I dont go into detail why.

Kind Regards

[king-zazai]

I've noticed one thing about Sangar

Is that he stereotypes people alot.

Like for example he says Pashtun Nationalists committ alot of sin and make friends with non muslims then he never mentions how his own Wahabi scholars hold hands with bush and visit the west to do business with their non muslim friends etc.

He calls people Kaffirs to make himself feel spiritually higher than us all, but in reality he shud be lucky that dutch laws protect him or he would have been lynched by angry shias and sufis a very long time ago.

I am sure in your Holy Quran it says only Allah decides who is Kaffir and who is not as he is the judge at the end.

He has been exploited by these Wahabists but I dont go into detail why.

Kind Regards

it shows by ur ugly words 2 that if ur a kafrr


the people going against sangar i mean look at u ppl

qurtabi, lewanaye, meem noon, u guys r not even real Muslims or real pashtuns

u guys have 2 check again what u believe in because according 2 me and what allah says and wat the rasul(saw) says u guys r all KAFFRS from the way u guys talk thats what it makes u....................ya the truth hurts i no :S

[MazloomyarMaseed]

it shows by ur ugly words 2 that if ur a kafrr


the people going against sangar i mean look at u ppl

qurtabi, lewanaye, meem noon, u guys r not even real Muslims or real pashtuns

u guys have 2 check again what u believe in because according 2 me and what allah says and wat the rasul(saw) says u guys r all KAFFRS from the way u guys talk thats what it makes u....................ya the truth hurts i no :S

I feel pity for you.

Secondly who made king zazai judge who is real pashtun and who is not.

Were the Pashtuns before Islam was created not real Pashtuns?

Its only since the Soviet war that people such as you with your mentality were born. Pakistani ISI and CIA booklets brainwashed new generations of Pashtuns into beleiving that Pashtun only=Islam but sadly that is not the case.

If we are Kaffirs then you are a Savage Wahabist ISI son of Charlie Wilson.

No Offence intended.

Kind Regards