Who is a kafir--where do we draw the line?

[شمله ور خراساني]

I believe that Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is Khatamun Nabiyyeen.

then who is Mirza Ghulam Ahmed?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

then who is Mirza Ghulam Ahmed?

Well, as far as the Messiah and the Mahdi are concerned this is what I am trying to resolve here, dearest brothre.

[شمله ور خراساني]

He prays 5 times a day, he loves Islam, he studies Islam, he eats Halal food, He is now trying memorize the Quran I think and yet we call one another a kaffir?


No wonder The Jews of New York rule the entire world.Yes you heard me the Jews of Manhattan, New York rule the world cause they are UNIFIED while we are too busy declaring one another kaffir.

he loves quran, yet he claims that the quran is wrong because he claism that isa alaysalaam is dead. And the quranic ayat in this regard mean something else.

He fabricates hadith and he rejects authentic hadith.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Well, as far as the Messiah and the Mahdi are concerned this is what I am trying to resolve here, dearest brothre.

you consider him to be messiah and mahdi?

This too is kufr.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Reasons why MWMN is a kaafir:

- He claims that there is no proof in qur'an or hadith that Mahdi & Messiah are two different things.


- He claims that there is no evidence to support the claim that Jesus peace be upon him will return. Because qadianis believe Jesus peace be upon him is dead.


- He claims that there is no evidence in Quran and sunnah that prophet-hood has ceased. And that it is possible that more prophets will appear.


- He also claims that the Sunni interpretation of Quran is self contradicting. While Qadiani interpretation is not.


- Regarding ayah 3:55 he says that it is contradictory, since how can jesus be raised and then die and then come back?


- Regarding ayay 46:61 he says that the hour does not necessarily have to mean end of days. Because the Arabic is unclear in this regard.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

he loves quran, yet he claims that the quran is wrong because he claism that isa alaysalaam is dead. And the quranic ayat in this regard mean something else.

He fabricates hadith and he rejects authentic hadith.

I never said the Quran is wrong. NEVER. Bring the post where I said this. I have said that the Holy Quran clearly declares Hadhrat Isa (as) as passed away.

I have never fabricated a hadith. Have some fear of Allah, brother. Why are you stuck on the fact that I am saying that one should love their homeland?

[شمله ور خراساني]

You want me to go and search for his old posts in other threads? I dont have to do that for you. You are a grown man, and in most of those discussions you participated.

Howcome suddenly you are now unable to find those posts?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Reasons why MWMN is a kaafir:

- He claims that there is no proof in qur'an or hadith that Mahdi & Messiah are two different things.


.

In Ibn Majah, they are both declared as one.

]


- He claims that there is no evidence to support the claim that Jesus peace be upon him will return.


.

Show me from Quran he will return.

- He claims that there is no evidence in Quran and sunnah that prophet-hood has ceased. And that it is possible that more prophets will appear.

.

I gave the verse 7:35 to support my view.

- He also claims that the Sunni interpretation of Quran is self contradicting. While Qadiani interpretation is not.

It is as far as the of Hadhrat Isa (as) is concerned.

- Regarding ayah 3:55 he says that it is contradictory, since how can jesus be raised and then die and then come back?


.

Proof me wrong then.

- Regarding ayay 46:61 he says that the hour does not necessarily have to mean end of days. Because the Arabic is unclear in this regard.

Proof me wrong.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I never said the Quran is wrong. NEVER. Bring the post where I said this. I have said that the Holy Quran clearly declares Hadhrat Isa (as) as passed away.

LOL! so you never said that? Yet you claim quran declares isa alaysalam as passed away. and that he is not returning. But a hindu who died from diarreah is the messiah?

I have never fabricated a hadith. Have some fear of Allah, brother. Why are you stuck on the fact that I am saying that one should love their homeland?

You did. You said that nationalism is part of imaan.

dont deny it.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

You want me to go and search for his old posts in other threads? I dont have to do that for you. You are a grown man, and in most of those discussions you participated.

Howcome suddenly you are now unable to find those posts?

Because they don't exist. You are trying to slander me.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

LOL! so you never said that? Yet you claim quran declares isa alaysalam as passed away. and that he is not returning. But a hindu who died from diarreah is the messiah?

Yes, how does this make the Quran wrong. It makes your interpretation wrong. There is a huge difference in this,dear brother.

You did. You said that nationalism is part of imaan.


dont deny it.

Have fear of Allah, dear brother, I have said love of your "homeland." I have never used the term "nationalism." May be you have misread brother.

[شمله ور خراساني]

In Ibn Majah, they are both declared as one.

Ibn Majah is not all authentic. Show me the hadith.

Show me from Quran he will return.

LOL! show me ayat of quran saying that he wont. Because I can name several proofs that he will. And you know that. But show me the contradiction. Since you are making the claim that is in contrast with Islam. Not me.

I gave the verse 7:35 to support my view.

Here is the ayat you are talking about:

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴعرَاف

يَـٰبَنِىٓ ءَادَمَ إِمَّا يَأۡتِيَنَّكُمۡ رُسُلٌ۬ مِّنكُمۡ يَقُصُّونَ عَلَيۡكُمۡ ءَايَـٰتِى*ۙ فَمَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰ وَأَصۡلَحَ فَلَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَيۡہِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ يَحۡزَنُونَ

Al-Araf
O Children of Adam! If there come to you Messengers from amongst you, reciting to you, My Verses, then whosoever becomes pious and righteous, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve (35)

Tafseer:

Fahishah, Sin, Transgression, Shirk and Lying about Allah are prohibited

Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah said that the Messenger of Allah said, «لَا أَحَدَ أَغْيَرُ مِنَ اللهِ فَلِذَلِكَ حَرَّمَ الْفَوَاحِشَ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَمَا بَطَنَ، وَلَا أَحَدَ أَحَبُّ إِلَيْهِ الْمَدْحُ مِنَ الله»

(None is more jealous than Allah, and this is why He prohibited Fawahish, committed openly or in secret. And none likes praise more than Allah). This was also recorded in the Two Sahihs. In the explanation of Surat Al-An`am, we explained the Fahishah that is committed openly and in secret. Allah said next,

﴿وَالإِثْمَ وَالْبَغْىَ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ﴾

(and Ithm, and transgression without right,) ﴿7:33﴾. As-Suddi commented, "Al-Ithm means, `disobedience'. As for unrighteous oppression, it occurs when you transgress against people without justification.'' Mujahid said, "Ithm includes all types of disobedience. Allah said that the oppressor commits oppression against himself.'' Therefore, the meaning of, Ithm is the sin that one commits against himself, while `oppression' pertains to transgression against other people, and Allah prohibited both. Allah's statement,

﴿وَأَن تُشْرِكُواْ بِاللَّهِ مَا لَمْ يُنَزِّلْ بِهِ سُلْطَـناً﴾

(and joining partners with Allah for which He has given no authority, ) prohibits calling partners with Allah in worship.

﴿وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللَّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ﴾

(and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.) such as lies and inventions, like claiming that Allah has a son, and other evil creeds that you -- O idolators -- have no knowledge of. This is similar to His saying:

﴿فَاجْتَنِبُواْ الرِّجْسَ مِنَ الاٌّوْثَـنِ﴾

(So shun the abomination (worshipping) of the idols) ﴿22:30﴾.

﴿وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَجَلٌ فَإِذَا جَآءَ أَجَلُهُمْ لاَ يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ سَاعَةً وَلاَ يَسْتَقْدِمُونَ - يَـبَنِى آدَمَ إِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُمْ رُسُلٌ مِّنكُمْ يَقُصُّونَ عَلَيْكُمْ ءَايَـتِى فَمَنِ اتَّقَى وَأَصْلَحَ فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ - وَالَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَايَـتِنَا وَاسْتَكْبَرُواْ عَنْهَآ أُوْلَـئِكَ أَصْحَـبُ النَّارِ هُمْ فِيهَا خَـلِدُونَ ﴾

(34. And every Ummah has its appointed term; when their term comes, neither can they delay it nor can they advance it an hour (or a moment).) (35. O Children of Adam! If there come to you Messengers from among you, reciting to you My Ayat, then whosoever has Taqwa and becomes righteous, on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.) (36. But those who reject Our Ayat and treat them with arrogance, they are the dwellers of the Fire, they will abide therein forever.) Allah said,

﴿وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ﴾

(And every Ummah has), meaning, each generation and nation,

﴿أَجَلٌ فَإِذَا جَآءَ أَجَلُهُمْ﴾

(its appointed term; when their term comes) which they were destined for,

﴿لاَ يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ سَاعَةً وَلاَ يَسْتَقْدِمُونَ﴾

(neither can they delay it nor can they advance it an hour (or a moment)). Allah then warned the Children of Adam that He sent to them Messengers who conveyed to them His Ayat. Allah also conveyed good news, as well as warning,

﴿فَمَنِ اتَّقَى وَأَصْلَحَ﴾

(then whosoever has Taqwa and becomes righteous) by abandoning the prohibitions and performing acts of obedience,

﴿فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَوَالَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَايَـتِنَا وَاسْتَكْبَرُواْ عَنْهَآ﴾

(on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve. But those who reject Our Ayat and treat them with arrogance,) meaning, their hearts denied the Ayat and they were too arrogant to abide by them,

﴿أُولَـئِكَ أَصْحَـبُ النَّارِ هُمْ فِيهَا خَـلِدُونَ﴾

(they are the dwellers of the Fire, they will abide therein forever.) without end to their dwelling in it.

﴿فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا أَوْ كَذَّبَ بِـَايَـتِهِ أُوْلَـئِكَ يَنَالُهُمْ نَصِيبُهُم مِّنَ الْكِتَـبِ حَتَّى إِذَا جَآءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا يَتَوَفَّوْنَهُمْ قَالُواْ أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ قَالُواْ ضَلُّواْ عَنَّا وَشَهِدُواْ عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ أَنَّهُمْ كَانُواْ كَـفِرِينَ ﴾

(37. Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Ayat For such their appointed portion will reach them from the Book (of Decrees) until Our messengers (the angel of death and his assistants) come to them to take their souls, they (the angels) will say: "Where are those whom you used to invoke and worship besides Allah,'' they will reply, "They have vanished and deserted us.'' And they will bear witness against themselves, that they were disbelievers.)

The Tafseer is from Ibn Katheer. In case you don't know what Tafsir Ibn Katheer is:

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Sources Of Tafsir


Notice that no where does it say that the prophet Isa alaysalaam is dead and wont be returning. This is a filthy lie the Qadiani MWMN is telling.

Proof me wrong then.

you are wrong because you are an arrogant liar. The ayat of quran are clear and explicit. It is you who is claiming otherwise.

Proof me wrong.

Again, the ayat are very clear. Allah speaks of the hour on several occasions in the quran.

For both instances where you have contradicted quran and lied against allah and his messenger, I can likewise post the ayat and its tafsir.

But the lying qadiani hyporcite that you are, you are saying rejecting haqq.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Yes, how does this make the Quran wrong. It makes your interpretation wrong. There is a huge difference in this,dear brother.



Have fear of Allah, dear brother, I have said love of your "homeland." I have never used the term "nationalism." May be you have misread brother.

you are a lying qadiani. You claim to know better than what is accepted by the majority of the scholars for the past 14000 years?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

So, those ahadith that don't fit your belief are wrong, eh? Can you please tell me which collection of ahadith are part of the 6 most authentic?

As for as 7:35 is concerned, aren't we Bani Adam? The verse is warning us. That is why it is in the future tense. The other verse you are referring to, Hadhrat Isa (as)'s name is not mentioned there.

Anything else?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

you are a lying qadiani. You claim to know better than what is accepted by the majority of the scholars for the past 14000 years?

Well, you claim you know better than anyone else. I have never claimed this. That is why anyone who does not follow what you are preaching or accept it you declared them kafir.

I am just presenting that the Ahmadiyya belief does not contradict the Holy Quran. If you have a problem with this, then it is your problem.