Why are Ahmadis considered non-Muslims in Pakistan

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Which hadith dearest brother?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Which one about the Messiah...what is "no homo?" lol...

[Mujib]

Therefore, he will be a prophet and he will have companions.

Rasulallah (Messenger/Apostle of Allah), `Abdullah (Slave/Servant of Allah), Kalimatullah (Word of Allah), Ruhullah (Spirit of Allah), and Masih (Messiah) are all the Qur’anic titles of Sayyidina `Isa (as). The Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) referring to him by these titles does not mean he, Sayyidina `Isa (as), will return with the role of prophet or messenger.

1. At the hadith link you gave you should have found the hadith about intercession on the Day of Judgment, in Sahih al-Bukhari, in which Sayyidina Musa (as) says to those who come to him for intercession, “You'd better go to Jesus, Allah's slave and His Apostle and His Word (Be: And it was) and a soul created by Him” (Sahih al-Bukhari). He refers to him with his Qur’anic titles. Should it be inferred, then, that Sayyidina `Isa (as) will be a messenger on the Day of Judgment or that this is an announcement of his continuing prophethood?

2. And again at the same link you should have read the hadith from the Muwatta in which the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) prays, “O Allah! Ibrahim is Your slave, Your Khalil and Your Prophet. I am Your slave and Your Prophet. He prayed to You for Makka. I pray to You for Madina for the like of what He prayed to You for Makka, and the like of it with it” (Muwatta). The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) refers to Sayyidina Ibrahim (as) with his Qur’anic titles. It does not mean that Sayyidina Ibrahim (as) still occupies the role of prophet.

His companions will have the ranks of the companions of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) as per the verses in Surah Jumu'ah.

What?

Exactly. Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is the "seal" of the prophets. His Law is final. The Ahmadis don't claim to have brought another religion. They claim to be following the Law of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw).

This is an attempt to distort the meaning of the verse. This is the tafsir of the verse:

(Muhammad is not the father of any man among you) i.e. Zayd, (but he is the Messenger of Allah) but Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah (and the Seal of the Prophets) with him Allah has sealed the advent of prophets, such that there is no prophet after him; (and Allah is Aware of all things) of your words and works. (Tafsir Ibn `Abbas)

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is the seal/final of law-bringing messengers (rasuls) and non-law-bringing prophets (nabis). The verse reads, "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things" (33:40). Allah Most High does not say he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of Messengers; He Most High says, "he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets". He Most High refers to him with both titles.

Where does it say this?

"Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things" (33:40).

And as you mentioned earlier, “According to the Holy Quran he [Sayyidina `Isa] was only sent to the Children of Israel”. These two, along with the hadiths, are proof that he will not return in the role of prophet. His prophethood was to the Children of Israel. Allah Most High raised him up to the heaven where he now lives. He will return to earth as a follower of Islam, not as a prophet, because the verse of the Qur’an and the hadiths make it clear that our Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is the final prophet.

Allah and His Messenger know best.

[Mujib]

What do Ahmadis think of Ahadith?

Qadianism is blind in its approach to the Qur'an and Sunna. There are several sciences related to Hadith. There is a methodology by which hadiths are narrated, transmitted, heard, studied, and graded. Qadianism knows nothing of this methodology. Its approach is blind, following only the constraints of this newfangled religion. What can be misconstrued to fit its tenets, it uses, and what cannot, it rejects.

[abubaker]

هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

وَآخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُوا بِهِمْ وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;(62:2)

As well as (to confer all these benefits upon) others of them, who have not already joined them: And He is exalted in Might, Wise. (62:3)

so how would this mean that Muhammad sww is coming back in person or in spirit

i cant find any such claim in ibn kathir tafsir of these ayahs and nor can i find any ahadith that indicate such a thing

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

^What does it mean when it states "others of them, who have not already joined them?"

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

As per the hadith in Sahih Muslim, the Messiah that will appear will be a prophet. There is no doubt about the fact that he will be a prophet. There is no doubt about the fact that Hadhrat Isa, son of Mary, (as) is passed away.

[Dukhtar-e-Kabul]

Does that mean they think he will not return at all?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Even non-Ahmadis are now started to realize what Ahmadis have been saying: that he, Jesus (as) has passes away. No one will ever come down from the sky. I hope you can understand Urdu:

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Here is another non-Ahmadi scholar:

[Mujib]

Does that mean they think he will not return at all?

This is an excellent work on the Muslim belief regarding Sayyidina `Isa (as) and his blessed mother Bibi Maryam (as):

Jesus Christ The Son of Mary and His Blessed Mother.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

^ Dear brother, if it can be proven from Quran that Hadhrat Isa (as) has passed away would you accept it or would you keep following whatever your scholars say?

[Roshina]

Now my question is, IF AHMADIS have everything sorted out, how come the Islamic consultants and Aalims do not sit with them and broad cast it live to really prove them wrong, IF THEY ARE WRONG.

I wonder the same thing.

Many, MANY, many centuries (like over a thousand years) ago, Muslim scholars who believed very differently would sit down with each other and have debates and discussions on many things. They would agree to disagree, and they'd respect each other's disagreements as well as the differences in their interpretations and understanding of Islam.

Some of the most important Sunni scholars were educated with and were even taught BY Shiite scholars, and vice versa.

But today, do we see this happening? No, we don't. It's always: "Shiites are wrong! There's no such thing as Sunni -- we're JUST Muslim." :| Like, seriously? Shiism exists but Sunnism doesn't exist because you refuse to label your own self while you label non-Sunnis?

On top of that, when we enter discussions on Islam and the different sects today, each side makes it clear to the other that "okay, so listen here. You're wrong, okay? And I'm right." This is seen on PF when we have threads with disgusting titles like "Exposing the falsehood of Shiism!" This is why we have "discussions"? To prove each other wrong? To "expose" the "falsehood" of each other's beliefs? And then we wonder why everything is wrong in Muslim countries? And why the entire world is out to get us? Well, this is why - becuase you refuse to listen to the other side, you refuse to study the beliefs of the other side FROM the perspective of that side. You study it from the perspective of its enemies and opponents, and so it's no wonder you believe they're false and wrong and you feel obligated to "expose" them.

We seem to have silently agreed that "Everything Scholars A, B, and C said is right, and everything anyone else has said WILL ever say is wrong." And this is why Ahmadis are considered kafirs and are persecuted in Pakistan. (You should read Mawdudi's viewson Ahmadis! He makes it clear that they should be killed :S And Mawdudi is supposed to be accepted as a scholar of Islam!)

So, yes, Kandahary, I, too, wish Muslim scholars from different sects, different understanding with different interpretations of Islam would come together and show some respect for each other as well their "followers" (for lack of a better word here).

[Mujib]

Nice to see so many educated people here.

Now my question is, IF AHMADIS have everything sorted out, how come the Islamic consultants and Aalims do not sit with them and broad cast it live to really prove them wrong, IF THEY ARE WRONG.

This has already been done. When Mirza Ghulam first came forward with his beliefs, the Muslim scholars of his watan refuted his beliefs and teachings. There were many public debates held, many books written, and the common folk were warned against this fitna.

[abubaker]

^What does it mean when it states "others of them, who have not already joined them?"

acording to ibn kathirs tafsir it means the non Arabs of his time, it doesnt mean that he would be reincarnated to preach people once again

so why dont you explain to us, why it means that he would come bac ''reincarnated'' as your Ahmadi's put it