Why are Ahmadis considered non-Muslims in Pakistan

[abubaker]

As per the hadith in Sahih Muslim, the Messiah that will appear will be a prophet. There is no doubt about the fact that he will be a prophet. There is no doubt about the fact that Hadhrat Isa, son of Mary, (as) is passed away.

absulute filth

[abubaker]

Muhammad is the Messenger to Arabs and Non-Arabs alike
Allah said,
[وَءَاخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِمْ وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ ]
(And others among them who have not yet joined them. And He is the Almighty, the All-Wise.) Imam Abu `Abdullah Al-Bukhari, may Allah have mercy upon him, recorded that Abu Hurayrah said, "We were sitting with the Prophet , when Surat Al-Jumu`ah was revealed to him;
[وَءَاخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِمْ]
(And others among them who have not yet joined them.) They said, `Who are they, O Allah's Messenger' The Prophet did not reply until they repeated the question thrice. At that time, Salman Al-Farisi was with us. So Allah's Messenger placed his hand on Salman, saying,
«لَوْ كَانَ الْإِيمَانُ عِنْدَ الثُّرَيَّا لَنَالَهُ رِجَالٌ أَوْ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هؤُلَاءِ»
(If faith were on Ath-Thurayya (Pleiades), even then some men or a man from these people would attain it.)'' Muslim, At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasa`i, Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir collected this Hadith. This Hadith indicates that Surat Al-Jumu`ah was revealed in Al-Madinah and that the Messenger's Message is universal. The Prophet explained Allah's statement,
[وَءَاخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ]
(And others among them) by mentioning Persia. This is why the Prophet sent messages to the kings of Persia and Rome, among other kings, calling them to Allah the Exalted and to follow what he was sent with. This is why Mujahid and several others said that Allah's statement,
[وَءَاخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِمْ]
(And others among them who have not yet joined them.) refers to all non-Arabs who believe in the truth of the Prophet. Allah's statement,
[وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ]
(And He is the Almighty, the All-Wise.) asserts that He is Almighty and All-Wise in His legislation and the destiny He appoints. Allah's statement,
[ذَلِكَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَآءُ وَاللَّهُ ذُو الْفَضْلِ الْعَظِيمِ ]
(That is the grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is the Owner of mighty grace.) refers to the great prophethood that He granted Muhammad and the qualities that He favored his Ummah with, by sending Muhammad to them.
[مَثَلُ الَّذِينَ حُمِّلُواْ التَّوْرَاةَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَحْمِلُوهَا كَمَثَلِ الْحِمَارِ يَحْمِلُ أَسْفَاراً بِئْسَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَايَـتِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ لاَ يَهْدِى الْقَوْمَ الظَّـلِمِينَ - قُلْ يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ هَادُواْ إِن زَعمْتُمْ أَنَّكُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ لِلَّهِ مِن دُونِ النَّاسِ فَتَمَنَّوُاْ الْمَوْتَ إِن كُنتُمْ صَـدِقِينَ - وَلاَ يَتَمَنَّونَهُ أَبَداً بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْديهِمْ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالظَّـلِمِينَ - قُلْ إِنَّ الْمَوْتَ الَّذِى تَفِرُّونَ مِنْهُ فَإِنَّهُ مُلَـقِيكُمْ ثُمَّ تُرَدُّونَ إِلَى عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَـدَةِ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ ]
(5. The likeness of those who were entrusted with the Tawrah, but did not carry it, is as the likeness of a donkey which carries huge burdens of books. How bad is the example of people who deny the Ayat of Allah. And Allah does not guide the people who are wrongdoers.) (6. Say: "O you Jews! If you pretend that you are friends of Allah, to the exclusion of (all) other people, then long for death if you are truthful.'') (7. But they will never long for it, because of what their hands have sent before them! And Allah knows well the wrongdoers.) (8. Say: "Verily, the death from which you flee, will surely meet you, then you will be sent back to the Knower of the unseen and the seen, and He will inform you about what you used to do.'')

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

This has already been done. When Mirza Ghulam first came forward with his beliefs, the Muslim scholars of his watan refuted his beliefs and teachings. There were many public debates held, many books written, and the common folk were warned against this fitna.

This is a very weak argument. The Holy Quran is full of incidences of how prophets were rejected by their own people.

Mujib Wrora Jana, have you personally read the works of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from their original sources?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

absulute filth

Dearest brother,

you can't pick and choose.

It is clearly evident in the hadith that I presented from Sahih Muslim that Messiah would be called a "nabi." You can choose to reject it. It is your right. But to call it filth is absolutely dishonest.

It is clearly evident in the Holy Quran that Hadhrat Isa (as) has passed away. You can choose not to accept it. It is your right but to call it filth is very wrong.

My friend was once having a discussion with a Shi'a and my friend told the Shi'a that the Holy Quran testifies to the truthfulness and good character of the Hadhrat Abu Bakr, Hadhrat Umar and Hadhrat Uthman (ra) (as well as Hadhrat Ali (ra)). The Shi'a called it "absolute falsehood."

My friend show him the verses. The Shi'a turned around and said that I cannot accept those verses.

My friend said that is your right, but you cannot reject the fact that they do exist in the Holy Quran.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Muhammad is the Messenger to Arabs and Non-Arabs alike
Allah said,
[وَءَاخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِمْ وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ ]
(And others among them who have not yet joined them. And He is the Almighty, the All-Wise.) Imam Abu `Abdullah Al-Bukhari, may Allah have mercy upon him, recorded that Abu Hurayrah said, "We were sitting with the Prophet , when Surat Al-Jumu`ah was revealed to him;
[وَءَاخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِمْ]
(And others among them who have not yet joined them.) They said, `Who are they, O Allah's Messenger' The Prophet did not reply until they repeated the question thrice. At that time, Salman Al-Farisi was with us. So Allah's Messenger placed his hand on Salman, saying,
«لَوْ كَانَ الْإِيمَانُ عِنْدَ الثُّرَيَّا لَنَالَهُ رِجَالٌ أَوْ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هؤُلَاءِ»
(If faith were on Ath-Thurayya (Pleiades), even then some men or a man from these people would attain it.)'' Muslim, At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasa`i, Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir collected this Hadith. This Hadith indicates that Surat Al-Jumu`ah was revealed in Al-Madinah and that the Messenger's Message is universal. The Prophet explained Allah's statement,
[وَءَاخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ]
(And others among them) by mentioning Persia. This is why the Prophet sent messages to the kings of Persia and Rome, among other kings, calling them to Allah the Exalted and to follow what he was sent with. This is why Mujahid and several others said that Allah's statement,
[وَءَاخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِمْ]
(And others among them who have not yet joined them.) refers to all non-Arabs who believe in the truth of the Prophet. Allah's statement,
[وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ]
(And He is the Almighty, the All-Wise.) asserts that He is Almighty and All-Wise in His legislation and the destiny He appoints. Allah's statement,
[ذَلِكَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَآءُ وَاللَّهُ ذُو الْفَضْلِ الْعَظِيمِ ]
(That is the grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is the Owner of mighty grace.) refers to the great prophethood that He granted Muhammad and the qualities that He favored his Ummah with, by sending Muhammad to them.
[مَثَلُ الَّذِينَ حُمِّلُواْ التَّوْرَاةَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَحْمِلُوهَا كَمَثَلِ الْحِمَارِ يَحْمِلُ أَسْفَاراً بِئْسَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَايَـتِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ لاَ يَهْدِى الْقَوْمَ الظَّـلِمِينَ - قُلْ يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ هَادُواْ إِن زَعمْتُمْ أَنَّكُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ لِلَّهِ مِن دُونِ النَّاسِ فَتَمَنَّوُاْ الْمَوْتَ إِن كُنتُمْ صَـدِقِينَ - وَلاَ يَتَمَنَّونَهُ أَبَداً بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْديهِمْ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالظَّـلِمِينَ - قُلْ إِنَّ الْمَوْتَ الَّذِى تَفِرُّونَ مِنْهُ فَإِنَّهُ مُلَـقِيكُمْ ثُمَّ تُرَدُّونَ إِلَى عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَـدَةِ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ ]
(5. The likeness of those who were entrusted with the Tawrah, but did not carry it, is as the likeness of a donkey which carries huge burdens of books. How bad is the example of people who deny the Ayat of Allah. And Allah does not guide the people who are wrongdoers.) (6. Say: "O you Jews! If you pretend that you are friends of Allah, to the exclusion of (all) other people, then long for death if you are truthful.'') (7. But they will never long for it, because of what their hands have sent before them! And Allah knows well the wrongdoers.) (8. Say: "Verily, the death from which you flee, will surely meet you, then you will be sent back to the Knower of the unseen and the seen, and He will inform you about what you used to do.'')

You have proven my argument. Thank you for providing the actually hadith. I could not find it on the internet. I was going to scan it. May Allah reward you, dearest brother.

There were already people from the non-Arabs who had accepted the Prophet (saw). The Quranic verse is referring to someone else who will appear in the Latter Days who will not be an Arab.

He will come at a time when the light of Islam would have disappeared. Only that person would be able to bring it back, even if it had gone to Al-Thurayya ( The Pleiades).

The verse refers to the the Imam Mahdi and the Messiah. Why else do you think that we would be in need of the Imam Mahdi and Messiah? Further, according to Ibn Majah, these two (Mahdi and the Messiah) would be one person. Further, according to the hadith in Muslim the coming Messiah would be a prophet and would have companions.

Therefore, this verse refers to people who will revive Islam who would have the same rank as the sahaba of the Prophet (saw). That is what:

وَءَاخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِمْ

(And others among them who have not yet joined them.)

is referring to. The reference is those who have already accepted Hadhrat Muhammad (saw), a prophet sent to the unlettered people. This is referring to second spiritual advent of the Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) just like the spiritual second coming of Hadhrat Isa (as).

Hence the "mahdi" and the "messiah." And those who accept them would be given the title of "sahaba."

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Wow. This an amazing discussion going on here.

So what are the signs that it was actually Mirza and not someone else?
The Quran also talks about false people doesn't it?


Salam MWMN.

Dear sister, wa alaikumus salaam wa rahmatullah. I hope you are well and are in good health.

You are absolutely right, the Quran does talk about false prophets. However, Allah says that He Himself would take care of false prophets. A false prophet who attributes his coming and his message to Allah is destroyed by Allah. It is only then and only that Allah would get directly involved--when a false prophet attributes truthfulness to Allah.

Also, it is the ijma of the Muslims that the yard-stick is 23 years, before Allah destroys that person and his community.

The fascinating thing is that Mirza Ghuma Ahmad has attributed everything to Allah.

I am a student truth, no matter where I find it I accept it. Alhamdulillah. Insha Allah, I will be sharing all of my research into Mirza Ghulam Ahmad with you all.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

He attributed his whole claim and mission to Allah.

It is funny you mention why non-Ahmadi scholars don't sit with Ahmadi scholars. In 1974 when they were declared non-Muslim, the actually proceedings were not published. Thereafter, the assembly voted 72-1 and declared them out of the fold of Islam.

I have a copy of what they submitted to the Pakistani Government in their defense. Can you read Urdu?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I had a question as well, why does Islam have so many sects?

Because everyone interprets things that way they want. The Prophet (saw) had prophesied about this. He said that there will be 73 and only 1 would be right. In other words, only 1 sect would have interpreted Islam correctly out of 73 and the other 72 would be wrong in their overall interpretation.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

can you post it in English? Salam alaikum. I've been watching over this thread.

On their website, I can't find it. However, the following links has to do with what happened in 1984. It is along the same lines. This should be enough to read until the find the other one.

A Deplorable Scheme of Falsification and Accusations

WAS AHMADIYYA MUSLIM JAMA‘AT PLANTED BY THE BRITISH?

The True Islamic Concept of Jihad

The National Security of Indian Muslims

Ahmadiyyah Muslim Jama‘at and the Muslims of India

Ahmadiyyah Muslim Jama‘at and Independence of Kashmir and Palestine

Ahmadiyyah Muslim Jama‘at and the Palestinian Muslims

Their Ulema

The Founder of the Ahmadiyyah Muslim Jama‘at

Claims of the Promised Messiahas

The Supreme Plan for the Universal Regeneration of Islam

A Great Victory for Ahmadiyyat

An Admonitory Sign

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

They called themselves Muslim. However, in order to make a distinction they call themselves Ahmadi Muslims.

[Mujib]

^ Dear brother, if it can be proven from Quran that Hadhrat Isa (as) has passed away would you accept it or would you keep following whatever your scholars say?

My scholars? Dear brother, you implied you were a non-Qadiani only presenting their beliefs here ("their beliefs" are your words). In the last few posts you've been espousing "their beliefs" as your own, hamwatana.

This has already been done. When Mirza Ghulam first came forward with his beliefs, e Muslim scholars of his watan refuted his beliefs and teachings. There were many public debates held, many books written, and the common folk were warned against this fitna.

This is a very weak argument. The Holy Quran is full of incidences of how prophets were rejected by their own people.

Mujib Wrora Jana, have you personally read the works of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from their original sources?

It's not an argument. It's a response to a question, brother.

The difference between the rejection of Prophets by their people and the rejection of Mirza Ghulam by the Muslims of his country is obvious. The former were Prophets and the people who rejected them were kafirs. Mirza Ghulam was not a Prophet but only someone who claimed to be a Prophet. The Muslims of his time rejected, refuted, and condemned his false claims as they reject, refute, and condemn them today. Why? Because his claims contradict the Qur'an, which says the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is the seal of Prophets, and they contradict the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) himself, who said, in many hadiths, that no Prophet will come after him.

[Roshina]

Why are they called Ahmadi Muslim and not just Muslims?

I am confused with that part. Do they consider themselves as a separate religion?

No, they don't consider themselves a separate religion, of course.

It's just a sect within Islam, just like Sunni and Shiit. Ismailis are a sub-sect within Shiite Islam, but most people tend to call them just Ismailis, although they're still Muslims and Shiite Muslims at that. Wahabis are a sub-sect within Sunni Islam, but people tend to call them just Wahabis.

So, it's just for distinction, like MWMN said, and for recognition as well, although I don't support the distinction personally. Sunni Muslims are rarely referred to as "Sunni Muslims," so I wish we'd stop adding the distinction term in other people's sects.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

My scholars? Dear brother, you implied you were a non-Qadiani only presenting their beliefs here ("their beliefs" are your words). In the last few posts you've been espousing "their beliefs" as your own, hamwatana.

Yes, your scholars @ sunnipath...so this means that Sangar was also an Ahmadi? He disagrees with your scholars.

The difference between the rejection of Prophets by their people and the rejection of Mirza Ghulam by the Muslims of his country is obvious. The former were Prophets and the people who rejected them were kafirs. Mirza Ghulam was not a Prophet but only someone who claimed to be a Prophet. The Muslims of his time rejected, refuted, and condemned his false claims as they reject, refute, and condemn them today. Why? Because his claims contradict the Qur'an, which says the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is the seal of Prophets, and they contradict the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) himself, who said, in many hadiths, that no Prophet will come after him.

Why do you think that our Prophet (saw) was rejected? He was known as "Al-Amin" all over Arabia and became an impostor over night.

I am not defending Ahmadis blindly. However, I don't like to base my conclusions on "scholars." Today, no one trusts scholars, even if those people are staunch anti-Ahmadiyya.

On this website, there are many who would call another member of another faith a kafir based on "their" scholar. However, if the same "scholar" was to tell them to wear the hijab, for example, they would not listen.

My friend, I don't worship scholars. I take their stance and try to understand and rationalize what they are trying to say.

To reject someone blindly is not just. It is best to read from their own sources about their beliefs. I am a staunch defender of Ismailis. I have friends who are Ismaili. I will always consider them Muslim. I don't agree with somethings they do or say. However, in my eyes they will always be Muslim.

That said, with Ahmadis, I love them. Everything they say is from the Quran. That is why I like their company.

My wrora Mujib, have you ever read anything written by Ahmadis?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

No, they don't consider themselves a separate religion, of course.

It's just a sect within Islam, just like Sunni and Shiit. Ismailis are a sub-sect within Shiite Islam, but most people tend to call them just Ismailis, although they're still Muslims and Shiite Muslims at that. Wahabis are a sub-sect within Sunni Islam, but people tend to call them just Wahabis.

So, it's just for distinction, like MWMN said, and for recognition as well, although I don't support the distinction personally. Sunni Muslims are rarely referred to as "Sunni Muslims," so I wish we'd stop adding the distinction term in other people's sects.

I agree and disagree at the same time.

My best friend is an Ahmadi, he is like my blood brother.

Once someone asked him what he was. He said that he was a Muslim. Then the person said: No, what type of Muslim are you? My friend replied that he was an "Ahmadi Muslim."

That person looked at my friend and said there is not such thing as _______ Muslim.

My friend said to him: When you first asked me I said Muslim, then you asked for distinction.

So, I see the wisdom behind calling yourself ________ Muslim.

[Mujib]

Yes, your scholars @ sunnipath...so this means that Sangar was also an Ahmadi? He disagrees with your scholars.

Sangar has made it clear he is not a Qadiani. You went from saying "their beliefs" and "them" to espousing their beliefs as your own. But khayr, country jana, the discussions are not about you or me or another member, so I'm not going to ask you whether or not you are Qadiani. The focus of the discussions is beyond that.

To reject someone blindly is not just.

No Muslim rejects Qadianism blindly. Claims to Prophethood are not rejected blindly, because every Muslim, man, woman, and child, knows that our Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) is the last Prophet. This belief is the very essence of Islam and it is imbedded in the heart and mind of every Muslim. So when anyone or anything contradicts this fundamental truth, they know, without the need to "hear their side" or "read their books," they know to reject it.

My wrora Mujib, have you ever read anything written by Ahmadis?

I have. I'll be posting something from one of them shortly, insha'Allah.