Death penalty for leaving Islam discussion.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

In my view, there is no god, ( or, technically, if there is, it is not one we know anything about ) and thus there is no final word of god telling me *anything*. That is why.

Do you agree mankind will always kill regardless of a god telling them not too?

So what is the purpose of life, what is the point of improving ones life? why dont you just grap a gun and kill me, what will happen to you? Nothing at all, but to some, we love Allah/God, because justice will always be there for us, instead of following man.

[ozymandias]

Do you agree mankind will always kill regardless of a god telling them not too?

When it is in their best interest, they think it is in their best interest, or when they are not thinking rationally -- all the same regardless on if they believe ina god or not.

So what is the purpose of life, what is the point of improving ones life? why dont you just grap a gun and kill me, what will happen to you?

*facepalm*

This is one of the worst arguments out there. For one, I believe that a criminal act, like murder, would be punished here, in the only life I have. Murdering you would result in my suffering for the rest of my existence.

On the other hand, religious people can be convinced that their murder is just in the eyes of their god, and that the suffering they go through on earth is a drop in the bucket compared to the eternal reward in the after life. This is why you rarely see atheist suicide bombers -- they have no real motivation or reward for doing so, other than possibly dying knowing they killed their target.

Furthermore, I am intelligent and compassionate. I chose not to harm others, and in fact to help them because I hate to see them suffering -- and not because some deity told me to. I do the right things because it improves the quality of life for others -- and for myself (even if it is only be giving me a 'good feeling' knowing I reduced the suffering of another).

Non-theistic morality is not anarchy. I am honestly amazed that you would confuse the two, and I hope it is because you never thought about it -- and not because you personally would be an amoral killing machine if you did not believe in the dictates of a deity that prevent you from an amoral, and immoral orgy of evil acts. The thought that the only thing to drive morals is a deity implies that if not for your belief in a god, you would be doing any and everything prohibited by that god.

As a final note, I want to make it clear that *even if morals can only be derived from a religion -- or that the 'best' morals can only be derived from a religion* this does *not* imply or prove the existence of a god. The argument that the world would be better with a god is far different than the argument that a god exists.

Nothing at all, but to some, we love Allah/God, because justice will always be there for us, instead of following man.

Then why are their so many Islamic terrorists? So many repressive Islamic regimes?

[ozymandias]

hey there

please watch this athiest vs theist debate and let me know what you think?

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=1850

thanks

I will try and find time tonight -- I don't watch videos at work.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias so when Islam has a death penality its bad, but when your country has its ok?

Nope. I think you will find my country, and the states that make it up, do many things I do not support.

I live in a death penalty free state, and am an avid supporter of life in prision, and opponent to the death penalty.

As many have pointed out, humans make mistakes, and until the death penalty is revokable in light of new evidence, I cannot in good conscience support it. I have seen too many cases where a person in prison for an extended period of time is exonerated by a technology that did not even exist at the time of their trial. Even one innocent man put to death shames the entire legal system.

[ozymandias]

no worries, at your pace. you can reply back in that thread so we stay on topic

*nod*

[ozymandias]

Islam is not going to give you a death penalty either its only based on certain circumstances, just like how your country has the same set of circumstances.

I am aware that Islam is diverse and what is true in one situation is not true is another -- in fact I have been trying to make that point for over 100 pages ;-)

I'm just sitting here enjoying the fact that this thread exists right now.

[ozymandias]

So do you agree with Sangar and his views?

No, as I feel they would violate basic human rights.

I do, however, feel that Sangar honestly, and deeply, feels that he is right. He feels that his flavor of Islam is legitimate -- and to him, that is all that matters. He believes that he is following Allah in the correct way, and you are wrong -- and you feel the opposite -- and you are *both* Muslims.

[Roshina]

Just lock it, useless thread
There is no death penalty for leaving islam, If someone wants to leave Islam then they can leave.

Did you actually read the hadith rulings on killing people who leave Islam? 'Cause there are quite a few! The Quran doesn't support it, though, so unless you're against it 'cause the Quran calls for freedom of religion, then, yeah, I'd understand.

[Roshina]

This is getting OVERLY redundant! Same things are being said over and over. Gosh.
But, meh, no harms in it as long as it's in line with PF rules/guidelines.

[akbarkhan]

Isn't it ironic, blind to your own laws again? The constitutional law of the United States prescribes death as a maximum punishment for treason.

[Roshina]

yes there are a few hadiths in sahih Bukhari and elsewhere but they only have a single chain of narrations. meaning they are not muttawatir "reportedly widely". So actually even those hadiths can't be used to justify death penalty.

And guess what, bro! I totally agree!

[Roshina]

Isn't it ironic, blind to your own laws again? The constitutional law of the United States prescribes death as a maximum punishment for treason.

How is leaving the religion you were born into treason? Please explain.

Obviously, if someone betrays her/his people by waging war against them or something, that's a whole different matter. But leaving a religion? How's that treason? Why is it treason only for Muslims to leave Islam but not for, say, Christians to leave Christianity or Hindus to leave Hinduism? Are they committing treason as well when THEY choose to leave their religion?

[akbarkhan]

How is leaving the religion you were born into treason? Please explain.

Obviously, if someone betrays her/his people by waging war against them or something, that's a whole different matter. But leaving a religion? How's that treason? Why is it treason only for Muslims to leave Islam but not for, say, Christians to leave Christianity or Hindus to leave Hinduism? Are they committing treason as well when THEY choose to leave their religion?

Little girl, becoming a Murtad is held as treason in Islam, if you are born as a Non Muslim you are not subjected to this rule. If you have an issue with that go fix your own constitutional law first then come to us. Find out what the US government wanted to do when Azam Al Amriki left democracy and capitalism behind let alone his religion. During 1940s U.S charged its citizens for treason when they shunned democracy and worked for communist objectives.

[ozymandias]

Isn't it ironic, blind to your own laws again? The constitutional law of the United States prescribes death as a maximum punishment for treason.

In the US, the standards of evidence are raised for this charge.

That said, who is being 'blind' to their own laws? I simply pointed out that the state I live in has prohibited the death penalty -- including non federal charges -- charges by states over violating state laws.

Additionally, while it may be 'on the books' this law is seldom invoked:

"In the history of the United States there have been fewer than 40 federal prosecutions for treason and even fewer convictions."

Of the *17* people convicted of treason, only 8 were ever executed, and 6 were pardoned, won on appeal, or otherwise served *less* than life imprisonment -- or even their full sentence.

The last trial to result in execution was in 1942. The last trial was in 1552. There is a trial that was started in 2006 that I believe resulted in an indictment for threatened terrorist acts.

Once again, I do not support the death penalty -- but thanks for playing.

[ozymandias]

Little girl, becoming a Murtad is held as treason in Islam,

So if you leave Islam, no problem -- they cannot be doing treason.

if you are born as a Non Muslim you are not subjected to this rule. If you have an issue with that go fix your own constitutional law first then come to us.

Once again the assumption that only one problem can be addressed at a time...

Find out what the US government wanted to do when Azam Al Amriki left democracy and capitalism behind let alone his religion.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

During 1940s U.S charged its citizens for treason when they shunned democracy and worked for communist objectives.

Obviously not many, when there have fewer than 40 prosecutions. Not to mention the fact that by definition they cannot be charged simply for supporting the political movement of communism.

Sorry, try again, Prophet Akbarkhan. I must say it is nice to see you here, Now that you are here, we have a genuine prophet of Islam to dictate what all true Muslims *must* believe.