Death penalty for leaving Islam discussion.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

For the past 1400 years the ruling was to kill apostates and many apostates have been killed by Muslim rulers. This is nothing new. However, the claim that apostasy should not be punished by death is a new concept some people who want to change islam to fit Western values are spreading.

The problem this type of argument is that you are relying on a tradition, not the practice of the Prophet (saw). He (saw) never killed anyone who left Islam. He is who brought Islam. Therefore, it is his practice we care about. Not what was invented after him. After his demise many things turned political. Killing apostates was one of them.

I am just waiting for your reasoning based on the Holy Quran as to why you believe apostates should be killed.

Don't fall in the trap that so and so scholar says that it is fine to kill apostates, because there are many other scholars who say that it is not right. Therefore, those who say that they should be killed have the burden of proof on them.

[Master Khan]

Just lock it, useless thread
There is no death penalty for leaving islam, If someone wants to leave Islam then they can leave.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

If Islam is the final word from Allah, then isnt is abit insult to Allah, that his final word is been rejected by those who are grateful to follow it in the first place.

Ex-Muslims have always turned out to be Opportunitists, and you can find many in America and Europe.

Regards

[Toramana]

Where is "the peace"?

[Muslimah]

Ex-Muslims have always turned out to be Opportunitists, and you can find many in America and Europe.

Regards

What do you mean by opprotunitists? And why do you hate Europe and America so much? Isn't that where you got your education?

On another note (and back to the topic) - you have a very strong opinion on things maseed...what are your thoughts on who gets to kill these who leave Islam??

[ozymandias]

I do agree that someone who leaves Islam usually turns to bashing muslims and insulting Islam. And therefore I do think that the shari'i solution for killing them is justified.

I would like to thank Admin Khan for starting a new thread -- and I would like to thank all the posters so far. I am slowly reading my way through them all, and trying to avoid commenting on everything, but this post was so amazing I could not stop myself.

Over in the "Islamic reaction to radical Muslims" thread, I have been told time and time again that no Muslim would ever kill an innocent -- that that is in direct violation of what Islam stands for -- and that anyone that supports the killing of an innocent, or the violation of human rights is not Islamic.

I have also been told, time and time again, that regardless of the acts of terrorism and the repressive laws of certain Islamic countries, that Islam is a very moral religion, and supports free speech.

I now look at this thread and see *EXACTLY* what I have been stating all along -- that while some believers might believe one thing, there is *NO* definitive interpretation of the Koran and Hadiths. Some people in this thread are defending the right to free speech -- and they are clearly scholars of Islam, and are doing their best to submit to God as they understand it. On the other side of the issues there are people like Sangar, who is also clearly a scholar of Islam, and is submitting to God as he understands it -- but the two groups are at odds.

You are *ALL* part of Islam, even though you do not see eye-to-eye, and you do not agree on what the teachings mean. To be a member of a faith does *NOT* mean that you are always correct -- in Islam, only the prophets and Allah can always understand God's will, at least as I understand the religion. Being 'wrong' does not mean you are not Islamic, what matters is the honest, heartfelt, and deep belief that you are doing what god wants, no matter what it is, no matter how easy or hard it is to do.

*THIS* discussion, by page 5 has proven what I have spent over a hundred pages trying to explain.

As to my commentary on this topic? Anyone that thinks apostates should be killed is supporting the violation of free speech, and violating multiple portions of the UN Declaration of Human rights. *THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE WHAT EVER THEY WANT* but they do not have the right to use force to coerce others into following their ways. Those that leave Islam of their own free will do not have to follow the laws of Islam, including the punishments for leaving.

[ozymandias]

Totally. And this totally explains why so many Muslims never make it known that they've left Islam; they pretend to be Muslim because they fear being killed for having made up their own mind.

I am just pointing out, for all those saying 'but Islam is the fastest growing religion'. How can you trust that it is the fastest growing religion, when so many refuse to openly admit they are leaving it? Growth of a religion is based on two things: How many new followers they have (birth and conversion), and how many leave the religion (death and conversion), and without honest numbers on both sides, it is hard to asses.

[ozymandias]

You have already made up your mind on this subject. Like on many other issues where you have been refuted. So why bother explaining you anything?

I, as an outsider, only see one side making strong arguments -- and it is not the 'kill all' side....

I think you may be jumping the gun to say that they have been refuted.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

What do you mean by opprotunitists? And why do you hate Europe and America so much? Isn't that where you got your education?

On another note (and back to the topic) - you have a very strong opinion on things maseed...what are your thoughts on who gets to kill these who leave Islam??

Go google or go onto youtube, type in former muslims, and the number of american and european shows they go on, boasting lies,and earning alot of money for it.

I hate America and Europe, for one, they divided Pashtuns, created the durrand line, currently bombing pashtun areas, decieved pashtuns against the soviets, the list goes on.

Regards to Education, If Britain didnt play its dirty game on Pashtuns, then i would be working very proudly in a Pashtun government instead of Pakistani one.

Well like i said, if Islam is the last word by God, then why would somebody want to reject it and follow something that isnt. Its logical

Kind Regards

[MazloomyarMaseed]

I, as an outsider, only see one side making strong arguments -- and it is not the 'kill all' side....

I think you may be jumping the gun to say that they have been refuted.

Mankind will always kill, killing is a process, and without war and killing, humanity wont survive and life wont go on.

In the eyes of Majority of Muslims, Islam is the final word of God, so what is the point in following something that the final word of god told u not to follow.

[ozymandias]

Just in the same way, you guys are also gonna tell me that Hazrat Ayesha's marriage was not right? RIGHT?

If you want to discuss pedophilia, I think that should be in a new thread.

[ozymandias]

You have never been to an Islamic Studies institution in the west OR in the east, my dear brother So for you to make any claims against either is unjust.

You see, my teachers don't "teach" me anything. They direct me to various sources, and they do NOT force me to read ONE perspective only. I'm obligated to read many, including people I disagree with. Then I'm allowed to take my own course.

My teachers don't accept any argument from me unless I can back it up with sources and/or logic or reason. I don't get to tell them things like, "The Quran says this!" or "The hadiths say this!" I've to prove it and explain it.

Yet another clear case of how the Middle East does not understand how the 'west' runs universities and colleges.

Professors do not dictate facts, they present information, and then expect you to pull the facts out and apply them on your own. It is the roll of a professor to facilitate your access and exposure and then test your understanding.

[ozymandias]

I am going to call Ozymandias to wake up and post his views here. 1300 views in a few hours? Gosh.

*jeesh* can't a man sleep for 4 or 5 hours? ;-)

[ozymandias]

Just lock it, useless thread
There is no death penalty for leaving islam, If someone wants to leave Islam then they can leave.

Were you not the one supporting a death penalty for exercising free speech and free religion already?

[ozymandias]

Mankind will always kill, killing is a process, and without war and killing, humanity wont survive and life wont go on.

In the eyes of Majority of Muslims, Islam is the final word of God, so what is the point in following something that the final word of god told u not to follow.

In my view, there is no god, ( or, technically, if there is, it is not one we know anything about ) and thus there is no final word of god telling me *anything*. That is why.