Toramana appreciation thread

[ScimitarXEdge]

Bayghama pa khair...Bacha pa Sawabai kai musam sanga woo? Bailai tha pa kai tlalai wai kana?

Actually, SX is an Arab nationlist. Arabs now-a-days are writhing with rage due to the humuliation they have suffered at the hands of Isreal ... SX has demonstrated the same pathological signs that characterise Arabs....

Usually claims of others being Arab Nationalists originates from those who are slaves of Imperialists, both mentally and spiritually

everyone knows Israel is a smokescreen from bigger issues.

[ScimitarXEdge]

The funny thing is SX, that your own interpretation of Islam is a western construct. Its a unique framework that you individually possess, an amalgamation of your western education and emotional need for religion to fill the voids in that understanding. This unique Islam has no value for another pashtoon. To elaborate further, lets design an experiment.

Write down ten basic tenets of this individualized islam and post them here, and we will ask the faithful to comment on them. If by the end of this exercise you are not labeled Kafir by half, I will accept you as 'ghous ul azam'. LOL. Your Islam is just that, yours, it is to soothe your nerves, not provide guidance for the pashtoons on how to live in 21st century as equal and honorable global partners.

Additionally, I am really amused by constant reference to an inferiority complex. Again something common to colonial subjects I guess, but sir, pashtoons by and large were a well documented exception to this identity crises and inferiority complex. Secondly the new generation born way after any colonial interaction has no memory of such. Now if you personally have some colonial anguish (you must be pretty old for that) or some guilt with being from a family of house negros, than that may be so, no such qualms here.

I grew up in PK and have been treated with utmost respect in USA. I dont know of other countries (i havent lived there) so honestly I really cant relate to what you are talking about. I have seen a lot of inferiority complex viz a viz white skin/ gora-kala/ english good accent vs. with a thick accent and such in a lot of indian/pakistani, the need to distinguish them selves from say punjabi sikhs or such with more and more arabized names and so on. But by large I have not seen this behavior that much prevalent in pashtoons. Some do have Khan and non khan or raees, non-raees complexes, again wont know much about that as i don't have any pashtoon pedigree problems.

It's funny to you because despite your pseudo intellectual theatrics and pretense of being learned, you lack any genuine knowledge or understanding on most of the subjects you choose to discuss. Much like what your comrade Toramana would accuse others of doing, the crux of most of your debates is sophistry; you're too intellectually dishonest and lazy to do any serious investigation on the subjects discussed.

are you familiar with Mu'tazilism at all? Probably not; if you actually had knowledge on the subject, you'd know that my viewpoints are actually a long established stream of thought in Islamic Culture before your beloved Europeans even knew how to properly navigate ships in the sea. So this theory that my ideology is some amalgam of western education and some emotional need for religion is erroneous. But I can understand why you think that, Being that your own views are derived based on an emotional anxiety driven motive it would only be expected for you to believe others operate on the same program. That however, isn't the case. as I said, my belief in Islaam, was an intellectual convincing, if something was more intellectually convincing, I'd embrace it. That however hasn't happened yet. I however am always open to challenges, so give it your best shot.

"There is no "my Islaam"; Islaam in so much as our existence on Earth is concerned, is a system of addressing different environmental and social issues and problems; if that wasn't the case then you wouldn't chaff under this animosity for why you feel for it because it conflicts with your irrational social and cultural vision. Islaam for me like every other Muslim serves as a system for addressing those problems in a holistic and comprehensive manner and this has proven itself meritable from the course of time, so long as Islaam is applied, and not selectively paid lip service towards, it successfully addressed this issue. For me I take the Mu'tazilah approach of Islaam, because it seems to have successfully applied Islaam in a comprehensive manner without compromising any crucial aspect. There's no emotional pacifier here; that is merely your own reflection you see.

In a very superficial sense, you're right that most of Pashtoons of 2011 are not at least explicitly aligned to Mu'tazilism, but even fewer are aligned with your views explicitly or implicity, I can guarantee that. However, Mu'tazilism is merely a way of approaching Islaam logically, and whether people overtly declare Mu'tazilah as their creed or not isn't an issue for me, neither is being condemned by other Muslims. My goal is only that Islaam is comprehensively followed, not extremism, not suicide bombers, not young women dying from preventable complications out of some distorted ideas of modesty. All one needs do is examine my discourses with Taliban supporters to know my stance on various issues. Regardless, I wouldn't be hard pressed to find more Pashtoons aligned with Mu'tazilah ideas on some level even if they don't explicitly embrace Mu'tazilism. Even some of the Wahhabis who are often in conflict with me are applying Mu'tazilah techniques against me without realizing it. The difference between you and I is that I don't reject Islaam, just certain approaches towards Islaam, this gives me a great deal of credibility, manuverability and leverage with Pashtoons. You on the other hand put yourself at odds with pretty much every Pashtoon past and present. Even your understanding of their beliefs reeks of someone completely alien and extrnal to the society; it's littered logically juvenile contrasts of Novelty vs. Antiquity, lacking of a nuanced understanding of their anthropology, ecology and evolution. Hence your complete erred belief that some artificial manufactured paradigm of technocracy will automatically transfer into a largely Anti-Technocratic Mountainous Rural and Nomadic culture of Pakhtunkhwah. My understanding of their beliefs takes a more balanced and rational approach, one which understands their pitfalls accurately but without trying to disregard the standards which are rationally valid, even if they do not cohere to the Modernist or in actuality European Status Quo. Unlike you I don't follow into shallow and illogical dichotomies such as "Novelty vs. Antiquity".


To make use of your muse; it's once again funny how you address the issue of inferiority complexes and colonial subservience because the psychological pathology that you operate by despite your constant denial is precisely that of the House Negro. You embody what is generally identified as an Uncle Tom syndrome here in North America. It's of no consequence if you're in complete and utter denial of it, the patterns and characteristic features that correspond to such a pathology are there. The situation of Pakhtoons as we speak today is a direct product of colonial intrusion; everything from the existence of Pakistan, to how Afghanistan was divided up and various leaders of Pakhtoons were "vassal clients" of the British ( a euphemism for being under tribute to British political authority), to different geopolitical schemes for the region over the past two centuries are all direct manifestations of the colonial enterprise; to say that Pakhtoons have forgotten it when it's engrained not only in our history, our folklore and our social, economic and political circumstances both past and present, is complete blindness.

Colonized mental enslavement is not just constrained to variables of social status, but also mindset and vision; especially when it comes abiding by Logically False appeals of Novelty such as defining progress/rectitude by how well it fits into contemporary standards (21st century); as if contemporary models are automatically correct for being more contemporary; and constructs of "global partners" in a imperial designed capitalist global hegemony, defining equality by what amounts to subservience to cultural norms manufactured and fabricated and against the natural ecological relationships of human beings globally. That's quite an irrational contradiction you have on your hands. But that's what having a colonized mindset does to a person.

If you were treated well in America, that's great news; every Master treats their wafadar lap dogs or in this case donkeys very well. You serve their agendas with more zeal and fervor than even some of their own kind. You're right in saying that it's very rare and unlikely for Pashtoons to suffer from these anxieties of inferiority and colonized psychology; but that only indicates that you're probably not Pashtoon in the first place. hence why you have no issues with your Pashtoon pedigree. Without relying heavily on conspiracy and clandestined intrigued but at the same time bringing credence to the to the underpinning reality of Neo-Imperial agendas that exist, learning Pashto has become of strategic importance for the Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence cadres of these Neo-Imperialist Institutions, it puts things into even greater perspective when put into the context of a "winning hearts and minds" strategy and disinformation strategy in their behalf. I'm not going to make a resolute accusation; but it wouldn't come as a surprise if that was the case here. It would put much of your rhetoric in context and would also explain why a so-called self described "Proud Pashtoon" who says they don't have an inferiority complex writes gleefully about an American Geo-political agenda to exploit the region as if they were somehow saviors of humanity. Such would into their propganda agenda nicely. It also explains how someone somehow raised in Pakhtunkhwah is attuned to terms like "House Negro" , terms which have cultural significance only in North America.


Let's run your experiment; just say when and where.

[Dukemina]

This has become more like a attack Toramana thread. Sheesh people learn to live with one another atleast a bit more peacefully...

Even though Toramana disagrees with me on most things (if not all) I think he has a lil liking for me so heads up he's a chap whose good enough to not let that get past him

[graveyardofempires]

toramana? are you a male or female?

[Catya Sher]

So Baygham is not a physician at all ?

Toramana is conceivably NOT a guy ?

What other potential surprises could there be waiting in the wings?

Contrast with Kakargirl's honesty and one sees people like these two
are definitely keeping themselves vague.

[ScimitarXEdge]

toramana? are you a male or female?

maybe he's a little of both

[ScimitarXEdge]

toramana is a male, just one of weak caliber.

[IamDZJ]

I dont see why it should concern either one of you.

[Toramana]

So Baygham is not a physician at all ?

Toramana is conceivably NOT a guy ?

What other potential surprises could there be waiting in the wings?

Contrast with Kakargirl's honesty and one sees people like these two
are definitely keeping themselves vague.

Hahahaha...Hahahahaha...Hahahaha...Thoroughly enjoyed that... By the way I enjoy sharp comments full of humour...Hay, lonely lady what else could we, I and Baygham, be...?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hahahaha...Hahahahaha...Hahahaha...Thoroughly enjoyed that... By the way I enjoy sharp comments full of humour...Hay, lonely lady what else could we, I and Baygham, be...?

You and admin khan should start an engineering thread. I am sure many youngins could benefit from your wisdom and advice. Looking back on my own career I recall that one of the issues with folks from central asia, south asia and China was that they were more in love with books and memorization than actually understanding a concept. The American engineers are usually folks that were building and taking apart cars and computers since they were 8 years old and this gives them a practical understanding of important concepts. So I figure some good advice for any youngin interested in engineering or following your career path is to get involved in programming at a very early age and also get some practical experience. That way, as he does his circuits coursework he understand the concepts like the Fourier transform and signal filtering/processing that you posted previously as more than formula, but rather as a concept defined mathematically.

I am sure some Islamia College Engineers or Kabul Engineers could build on it.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. This is an anonymous forum and here my name is Baygham. Some say I am a doctor, I never said that. I am from Swabi KP. Just visited the damn place. I have never set foot in kandahar or kabul, have friends and family that do business there and I do interact with them almost on daily basis. I have no political or economic aspirations in watan. Uncle sam kaka has been kind and I do OK in USA.

My impressions of pashtoo and pashtoons is many from KP, a little from Quetta which i have visited quite a few times, some friends from FATA and some visits there, mainly khyber. Nothing else.

Nomads I have seen I must confess, here and there, I dont think anyone in the next 100 years will ask them for what to do in PK. They have no role to play in the making of any sort of social or political movement in KP. Hence there irrelevance. I am not sure if they wield more power in afghanistan, may be they do, God bless you guys then, if they do. We are a little far away from having a 'koochi' sardar as our boss.

More pashtoons are killed by fellow pashtoons in pakhtunkhwa than are killed by americans. I dont have absolute statistics but can safely say that if we count all the murders in KP that occur daily, from family clashes, domestic violence, tribal friction, suicide bombing, taliban killing and vise versa, the total is probably a lot more than NATA killing of afghans on a daily basis.
since you like facts, here is one calculated murder rate in peshawar (22.9/100,000/ year)http://www.ayubmed.edu.pk/JAMC/PAST/...ar%20MArri.pdf
extrapolate to the whole KP/FATA the rate comes to 4400-5500/ year. The study was in 2002, a year of no talib voilence as MMA was in power, now you can imagine what it is.
compared to civilian deaths by NATO is less than a few hundred http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...zoomed-picture


We have way bigger problems than who is pumping karzai and dha cha pa moor sook ****** dhi. Our culture is in decay, economic activity is at a stand still, social order is disintegrating, and nobody knows what to do.

Ka pa sijdoo dha sizoona sameeday noo thar hussa ba 'mars' tha las zalla thalee oo.

As I noted above, your tendency is to tie two unrelated issues together and make an inference about cause and effect whilst ignoring all other possibilities (i.e. you bend the data to suit your hypothesis). So even with the reference you provide, you proceed without a logical or scientific mindset.

For instance, your simplistic assessment is: well, an Americans are not doing the killing in the stats you cite... therefore no relationship between American presence and disorder exist. You yourself indicate that the degree of death has probably increased since 2002... well golly, what happened in 2001-2002 right across the border? Do these regions hang in isolation from eachother? Have you read the history of the wazirs and their involvement in the most recent change of Afghan monarchies? Why are bombs going off in paramilitary bases in KP and for that matter, what brought the Talibs out of the woodwork and gave them a cause celebre (refer to that tribal analysis study I posted about the historical cycle that empowers the mullah class)?
For that matter, even if the stats have augmented or changed or remain stable, there is no conclusion at the end of the data that all of this is due to religiosity. People will find reasons to kill people for other things... take a look at the guy who shot Gabriel Giffords in Arizona.

Finally, Matthew Hoh of the Afghan study group appears to have this to day when analyzing such data:
"And so the cycle began. We add more troops, which strengthens the Taliban and weakens support for the government. Suicide attacks, IEDs, military and civilian dead or wounded—all rise commensuratelywith eachincrease in foreign troop or Afghan government presence. We misunderstand many ofthecauses of support for the Taliban. They didn’t wear sandwich boards or hand out pamphlets to win people. They are the Pashtuns. Most don’t want to rule the country. They just want to get rid of the occupiers."

Why is it that a soor kaafir, who was efficiently killing Al Qaeda as a marine commander comes to this diametrically opposite conclusion of you? Perhaps because you are biased and want your agenda to succeed as opposed to stepping back and asking what would be best for that stability you so desire.

For that matter, Toramana himself has operated on the dictum that political independence must proceed economic, educational, and strategic growth. In my initial posts on the forum he referred to the emphasis you put on balancing these issues first and foremost as Islamist paradigms... so I will let you two battle out the contradiction. After all, he is saying "build an independent state first and they will come." You are saying: "screw independence and Islamism we have bigger problems and a load of troubles on our shoulders."

The contradiction and non evidence based approach is glaring.

[Baygham]

As I noted above, your tendency is to tie two unrelated issues together and make an inference about cause and effect whilst ignoring all other possibilities (i.e. you bend the data to suit your hypothesis). So even with the reference you provide, you proceed without a logical or scientific mindset.

For instance, your simplistic assessment is: well, an Americans are not doing the killing in the stats you cite... therefore no relationship between American presence and disorder exist. You yourself indicate that the degree of death has probably increased since 2002... well golly, what happened in 2001-2002 right across the border? Do these regions hang in isolation from eachother? Have you read the history of the wazirs and their involvement in the most recent change of Afghan monarchies? Why are bombs going off in paramilitary bases in KP and for that matter, what brought the Talibs out of the woodwork and gave them a cause celebre (refer to that tribal analysis study I posted about the historical cycle that empowers the mullah class)?
For that matter, even if the stats have augmented or changed or remain stable, there is no conclusion at the end of the data that all of this is due to religiosity. People will find reasons to kill people for other things... take a look at the guy who shot Gabriel Giffords in Arizona.

Finally, Matthew Hoh of the Afghan study group appears to have this to day when analyzing such data:
"And so the cycle began. We add more troops, which strengthens the Taliban and weakens support for the government. Suicide attacks, IEDs, military and civilian dead or wounded—all rise commensuratelywith eachincrease in foreign troop or Afghan government presence. We misunderstand many ofthecauses of support for the Taliban. They didn’t wear sandwich boards or hand out pamphlets to win people. They are the Pashtuns. Most don’t want to rule the country. They just want to get rid of the occupiers."

Why is it that a soor kaafir, who was efficiently killing Al Qaeda as a marine commander comes to this diametrically opposite conclusion of you? Perhaps because you are biased and want your agenda to succeed as opposed to stepping back and asking what would be best for that stability you so desire.

For that matter, Toramana himself has operated on the dictum that political independence must proceed economic, educational, and strategic growth. In my initial posts on the forum he referred to the emphasis you put on balancing these issues first and foremost as Islamist paradigms... so I will let you two battle out the contradiction. After all, he is saying "build an independent state first and they will come." You are saying: "screw independence and Islamism we have bigger problems and a load of troubles on our shoulders."

The contradiction and non evidence based approach is glaring.

Zama grana wrora, I may be a simpleton but even the village idiots know that what is happening in KP and larger pakhtunkhwa is anything but straight forward.

Your opposition to america is not based on whether it is economically a good or bad thing. You call them 'sur kafir' and wish them the same as your forefathers wished (and carried forth) for the 'tur kafir' (Siah-Posh Kafirs) in your beloved Afghanistan.

Was that an economically good thing, you bet it was for the King, he got some more land, was it good for the tur kafir citizens of afghanistan, I dont think you can sell me that they are better off. The king justified his actions by calling them enemies of Islam (as the name implies) and hence justified his loot.

To me these are economic equations. It is no longer economically feasible or necessary to have an Islamic reason for exploitation to further resources for the pashtoon. Other much more efficient and less destructive methods will yield us much more worldly gains.

The Islam 'gatta' aw 'tawan' is not my concern and the need for it to exploit some poor soul, I consider beghaarathi and below the honor worhty of a pakhtoon.

As far as disagreement with toramana, we are free thinking people,sometimes he will be right some times I will be, I am not offended if he is and he is I am sure not when I am. If evidence falls in his favor I change my opinion to his and hope he does the same. In a few years of posting here and there we have never come across an insurmountable obstacle where death was wished on the other.LOL

[ScimitarXEdge]

I dont see why it should concern either one of you.

I dont see why our concern should concern you

and by the way it's not concern, it's jest.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Zama grana wrora, I may be a simpleton but even the village idiots know that what is happening in KP and larger pakhtunkhwa is anything but straight forward.

Your opposition to america is not based on whether it is economically a good or bad thing. You call them 'sur kafir' and wish them the same as your forefathers wished (and carried forth) for the 'tur kafir' (Siah-Posh Kafirs) in your beloved Afghanistan.

Was that an economically good thing, you bet it was for the King, he got some more land, was it good for the tur kafir citizens of afghanistan, I dont think you can sell me that they are better off. The king justified his actions by calling them enemies of Islam (as the name implies) and hence justified his loot.

To me these are economic equations. It is no longer economically feasible or necessary to have an Islamic reason for exploitation to further resources for the pashtoon. Other much more efficient and less destructive methods will yield us much more worldly gains.

The Islam 'gatta' aw 'tawan' is not my concern and the need for it to exploit some poor soul, I consider beghaarathi and below the honor worhty of a pakhtoon.

As far as disagreement with toramana, we are free thinking people,sometimes he will be right some times I will be, I am not offended if he is and he is I am sure not when I am. If evidence falls in his favor I change my opinion to his and hope he does the same. In a few years of posting here and there we have never come across an insurmountable obstacle where death was wished on the other.LOL

No wrrore,

You are no simpleton, that is why your views are so abysmally sad. Emotional arguments do not correlate with intelligence level or whether you have a dearth of knowledge are not. That was not my intention to portray you that way. I am merely taking apart your interpretation of the events/data.

Regarding the usage of the term sur kafir: the point here was not to degrade Matthew Hoh, Michael Scheuer, or any of my American colleagues. Rather my point was to show you that someone with no investment in the Pakistani establishment, a marine commander with a conservative track record, an the head of the Afghan study group, a Christian without any support of Pan Islamism take the data you analyzed and comes to a completely different conclusion than you. Moreover, hypothesis that subseqeuntly were put out by him prove true again and again because his interpretation provides a dynamic ground level model for which to predict outcomes.

In medicine, we have blinded studies. That is done so that say, if I invent a device/new drug and I want to test it, I cannot bias the results to benefit myself. So when my device/new drug is tested, physicians and patients will be unaware (blinded) as to which treatment group they are in (experimental new cure vs placebo). In this same way, the closest we come to a blinded interpretation of the results with an agendaless/no gain analysis is from the likes of Matt Hoh and Michael Scheuer. Contrast this with the neoconservatives, which appear to have Osho in their ranks... they have a democracy spreading obsession/agenda and see all data through those eyes.

Finally, your charges, commonly touted by the secularist/nationalist faction of ANP and others are in massive folly and baseless. They are as follows:

1. Pan Islamists hate Americans and want them to suffer the fate of the "kafir": Hardly... the U&M polling shows that the Muslim world, Arab and nonArab alike admire Americans and their work ethic but detest American governmental policies that are interventionist in their world.

In fact, one of Osama Bin Ladin's video tapes, per Scheuer's new book, initiates a conversation with the American people, indicating that they allow themselves to be yolked by neoconservatives with a fifth column agenda and that he bears no ill will to malice toward them. Instead, the Pan Islamist strategy appears to have shifted toward viewing attacking the "far enemy" that props up the "near enemy" as a more appropriate strategy. It has little to do with hate.

2. The literature on etiquettes of jihad itself do not lend itself to your flimsey narrative. The famous story of Ali at Khandaq illustrates that purity of purpose, and not hate, is to drive defensive or offensive jihad. Ali had downed a famous Meccan warrior and was about to strike the death blow when the warrior spit on him. He stepped back and refused then to deliver the blow and the fighting continued. When asked why he did this, Ali responded: "Had I killed him in such a condition, it would be because he had angered me. I therefore waited for my anger to subside so that when I went back to strike him, I knew it would be purely for the sake of Allah."

Moreover, the Quranic ayaahs time and time again affix the phrase: "but if they sue for peace" or "if they cease aggression" then you too must do so.

3. Finally, it appears that those of us who sue for peace and who prefer that America return to the roots her founders laid out for her love our fellow Americans far more than you do. This involves divestment from propping up middle eastern/central asian tyrants and occupying Muslim lands which is in direct contradiction to President Washington's instructions. After all, it was you that exclaimed excitement about sending your fellow Americans to their deaths in your place right here:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/hujra-1...10/index8.html

Here is your own quote referring to the Americans as "slaves"

"LOL, chi nookaran shtaa no khpala sala zan marr koo.LOL."

to non pashto speakers this translates to:

"LOL, if we have slaves around then why would we kill ourselves, LOL."

This behavior, more than anything is unAmerican and does no service to the Pashtuns being killed for an agenda or the innocent Americans being sent to do the dirty work you ought to be doing yourself.

4. The contradiction between you and Toramana in terms of ideology and how to proceed is problematic not because one should have ill will, but rather because it shows the stark divide and lack of promise that your interventionalism holds.

The most common refrain that is ready in your mouths is: The only interventionalism that is problematic is Arab interventionalism... which is another canard to deflect from the above problems in your arguments.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Zama grana wrora, I may be a simpleton but even the village idiots know that what is happening in KP and larger pakhtunkhwa is anything but straight forward.

Your opposition to america is not based on whether it is economically a good or bad thing. You call them 'sur kafir' and wish them the same as your forefathers wished (and carried forth) for the 'tur kafir' (Siah-Posh Kafirs) in your beloved Afghanistan.

Was that an economically good thing, you bet it was for the King, he got some more land, was it good for the tur kafir citizens of afghanistan, I dont think you can sell me that they are better off. The king justified his actions by calling them enemies of Islam (as the name implies) and hence justified his loot.

To me these are economic equations. It is no longer economically feasible or necessary to have an Islamic reason for exploitation to further resources for the pashtoon. Other much more efficient and less destructive methods will yield us much more worldly gains.

The Islam 'gatta' aw 'tawan' is not my concern and the need for it to exploit some poor soul, I consider beghaarathi and below the honor worhty of a pakhtoon.

As far as disagreement with toramana, we are free thinking people,sometimes he will be right some times I will be, I am not offended if he is and he is I am sure not when I am. If evidence falls in his favor I change my opinion to his and hope he does the same. In a few years of posting here and there we have never come across an insurmountable obstacle where death was wished on the other.LOL

Also, regarding the Afghan King you speak of: remember Abdurrahman Khan, aka the Iron Amir, the forefather of the modern opportunist and sloppy politician, "Prince" Ali Seraj was maintained in power by the British and for the British. In Qandahar he devastated the Durrani confederacy and deported many of our tribal members to northern Afghanistan, guaranteeing the outcome we see today in terms of internicine strife. He also endorsed the durand line. What is interesting is that Dost Mohammad and Amanullah, each with a bit more of internal legitimacy, left the Nursitanis and others well enough alone compared to the Iron Amir. So once again, the fruits of western interventionalism were bitter for Afghanistan.

"Abdur Rahman was officially recognized as Amir, granted assistance in arms and money, and promised, in case of unprovoked foreign aggression, such further aid as might be necessary to repel it, provided that he align his foreign policy with the British. The British evacuation of Afghanistan was settled on the terms proposed, and in 1881, the British troops also handed over Kandahar to the new Amir."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdur_Rahman_Khan