Toramana appreciation thread

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Dear BA, heed the advice of your fellow chakra inspired alchemist, run run for beygham may eat you alive, he is a big "baww". His sister dates americans, how scary. And he would kidnap all your roommates, and put them on guard duty in waziristan.

Oh I forgot, in reality land you will need a compass for your anti lmoonzoona LOL. Preferably a real one, not a fictional one.

[Baygham]

Sorry to ruin yet another fiction generated storyline that you started. Seriously, you must write these down as you could collect a short story book out of them. This can be about a doctor that you suspect is madhabi salafi with a long flowing beard who wears a koofi to work and yet has taken many loans and yanks at the paaryaan tombaan of the devotees as they line up for prayer.

The reality is, my friend, my tuition was free as I was educated through a physician scientist/MSTP pathway my friend! So by God's grace, I have $0.00 loan debt.

His family has served in the military since the confederacy and he had no fear whatsoever of going.

The issue though is that you have not served or ever fired a pistol... are you ready to be air dropped into Wana? Are you ready to quit emulating Rumsfeld kaka who would doing what you do and sending others to hunt Fazlullah and Hakimullah down for you?

I can see it now... a dusty Waziristan day and a helicopter overhead... Mazlum Yaar Massed is a little slow so he doesnt deploy his parachute on time. The last two members of the C-Team, Toramana and Baygham must brave the elements to catch two rogue mullahs and save Khybar Pashtunkhwa.

bia khu mazee dhi peera, chi dharla aw clinic ba kandahar ki koolaw koo, sa khyal dhi dhay,

As for hunting fazlullah and hakimullah or for that matter allah, rumsfield kaka knows who to call, if he wanted them silenced.
Khair kho pa dhee ki dhay, chi ghuubal garam wee, no dha tooloo kar rawan wee. Unfortunately I did not make a single penny in this war. I have to stay contend with just seeing some talib ass whipping, hoping one day rumsfield chacha will oblige and have a soap opera / action movie run in pakthunkhwa. keeday chi dha waziristan sa zanawar insanan shi, darwin would be astonished at that rate of progress.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Dr. Abdali,
Every time I read this bayghairat's opinion I feel sick to my stomach.
It is such an unsettling feeling to know that there exists an Afghan who has been so subjugated and indoctrinated by the enemies of his forefather, that he would rather kill his own than tarnish the "highest achievement of humanity". He must be referring to the colonial prowess of Americans as they efficiently exterminated the indigenous, used negros for their plantations, and made war in other countries and keeps the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons. Oh yeah, but those damn arabs...they brought Islam which is the what causes him nightmares...and you sit there dabbling with this fool like his opinion is valuable?
This fool watches his sister date americans...it goes without saying that he wants america to run afghanistan. When did the arabs ever rule over afghanistan? You are talking about 300 years ago ..this fool is ranting about 1400 years ago...he hates islam, he hates the fact that 99% of Pashtuns are muslims so why do you keep taking the stick and stirring his b.s? Please doc ... you are causing more harm than good this way.

Dont worry brother, its hardly harmful... folks see that he connects dots to straight lines instead of other dots, inserts opinion into fact, and has an agenda that even he admits is in the abysmal minority at home. The latter admission on his part is a success.

Also, I feel that he could become the next Stephen King and really write some good story lines. As his Pashtun brother I want him to develop this skill further and am helping him to do so. Thus far he has generated a novella about a Santa Clause like Superpower that trots the globe giving out Manhattan Financial districts to poor countries that it occupies, a short story about Arabs turned termites infesting the trees of Pashtunistan, and a classic story about a young nationalist living abroad but so wanting to bring that highest achievement of humanity to his father's doorstep that he will start a team of rogue nationalists that will fight their own war from now on.

Finally his fascination with homosexual innuendo and dont ask dont tell show that he has some issues to work out ala Tim Haggard. But thats his own thing.

Dont worry, I shall sleep now, but I look forward to his next big attempt at actually writing something that is fact based or evidence based.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Dr. Abdali,
Every time I read this bayghairat's opinion I feel sick to my stomach.
It is such an unsettling feeling to know that there exists an Afghan who has been so subjugated and indoctrinated by the enemies of his forefather, that he would rather kill his own than tarnish the "highest achievement of humanity". He must be referring to the colonial prowess of Americans as they efficiently exterminated the indigenous, used negros for their plantations, and made war in other countries and keeps the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons. Oh yeah, but those damn arabs...they brought Islam which is the what causes him nightmares...and you sit there dabbling with this fool like his opinion is valuable?
This fool watches his sister date americans...it goes without saying that he wants america to run afghanistan. When did the arabs ever rule over afghanistan? You are talking about 300 years ago ..this fool is ranting about 1400 years ago...he hates islam, he hates the fact that 99% of Pashtuns are muslims so why do you keep taking the stick and stirring his b.s? Please doc ... you are causing more harm than good this way.

is this part factual; or are you extrapolating that from his writings?

[ScimitarXEdge]

unfortunately for you, people and their interests or lack of it has nor ever will concern me.

there is a lot more to a person's being before their being of a man or a woman. i am many things before i am a woman.. that is something they forget about themselves as well as others. once again, it doesn't bother me.

Yet you came here not for the debate, but specifically for a few off comments in the thread;but no that's simply curiosity, not concern at all right?

And yet even in your own rhetoric, you contradict yourself, now if anything were characteristic of female argument/fighting strategy, self contradiction is it. Males tend to stay consistent in their positions.

I think you need a good vacation, not just from forums, but people in general , some soul searching should do you good. You need to learn to be able to simply step back and not view everything as a threat to your identity.

[IamDZJ]

Yet you came here not for the debate, but specifically for a few off comments in the thread;but no that's simply curiosity, not concern at all right?

And yet even in your own rhetoric, you contradict yourself, now if anything were characteristic of female argument/fighting strategy, self contradiction is it. Males tend to stay consistent in their positions.

I think you need a good vacation, not just from forums, but people in general , some soul searching should do you good. You need to learn to be able to simply step back and not view everything as a threat to your identity.

my identity? i was simply bored so i clicked on the thread and that is what i saw. i am not taking anything as a threat to myself nor does my soul need searching for. i could use the vacation though.
that thing that you call consistency is a form of idleness to me. and your habit of suggesting the vacation, dullness of your character. would you have been able to make your point with out the latter?
women like shortcuts. men are too stubborn to give their brain a break.
good day to you sir..

[Alchemist]

is this part factual; or are you extrapolating that from his writings?

factual:

he is beghairat and beynomoose.

And zohra, the more you argue with her the more opinionated and dramatic she gets. It's like watching you argue with a 5 year old that likes to tease and taunt her elders for attention and recognition. What has been her argument? That she was right and you were wrong? LOL tell her she won...let her have this one Scimitar...don't be a meanie.


Dr. Abdali,
baygham a novelist?
You need imagination and creativity to play that part. But all he is capable of doing is regurgitate what his uncle rumsfeld fed of excuses for bombing his folks in waziristan ..."for their own good". The fool thinks taliban are some alien beings that have invaded waziristan from beyound the moon... and worse off he thinks he is american. It's more like you are working with a patient suffering from severe psychosis ...no he aint no Autistic Savant he is just a white washed wannabe. Hardly deserves any recognition...
What has been his argument so far? That he is scary? LOL
that we fear him and his secular ideology? pffftt.....And all that aside, I seriously doubt he is a he. He sounds so much more like a she after I read her ridiculous blog entries about mothers, as if the only thing he understands is the matriarchy. The dude is confused ...stop embarrassing him.

[ScimitarXEdge]

factual:

he is beghairat and beynomoose.
.

so did he openly admit that his sister does this or that he would allow it if it happened?

[ScimitarXEdge]

my identity? i was simply bored so i clicked on the thread and that is what i saw. i am not taking anything as a threat to myself nor does my soul need searching for. i could use the vacation though.
that thing that you call consistency is a form of idleness to me. and your habit of suggesting the vacation, dullness of your character. would you have been able to make your point with out the latter?
women like shortcuts. men are too stubborn to give their brain a break.
good day to you sir..

well it's idleness to you because stagnancy is the only consistency you can relate to; for me consistency just means having cohesive ideas operating over how you address different matters. Women like short cuts, on which planet? One needs only look at the exorbitant cravings that women generally possess to know the falsity of the notion, just look at the wedding threads and you'll see what I mean. If the idea of you taking a vacation alludes to the dullness of character, than I am guilty as charged, I'd rather be dull than waste myself away with vapid "curiosities".

[Baygham]

so did he openly admit that his sister does this or that he would allow it if it happened?

You can ask me directly SX, and I meant what I said in my private post. I respect your position, but you see you are an apostate to them just like me. In pakistan they have and will kill you for what you believe in. It is not even a matter of right or wrong, but about a fundamentaly more basic question. Do we as humans even have the right to believe what we think is right or not. I say we do. The beliefs that you have in a western country where you are not threatened for them, cannot be kept in Pakhtunkhwa, my experiment is unfolding on that other thread as we speak.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...arxedge-13489/

As far as my sister dating a kafir or musalman gringo, If she is 18 and settled in life, my love and support for her will not change, regardless of whether she chooses to become a mutazali, or an atheist, whether she dates a negro or a gringo. I hope that she will carry herself with dignity and honor because I believe she will, if she chooses not to, goes and becomes a topless dancer, something I dont endorse for anyone, I will be disappointed and will show my disappointment by voicing it and not by violence.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. This is an anonymous forum and here my name is Baygham. Some say I am a doctor, I never said that. I am from Swabi KP. Just visited the damn place. I have never set foot in kandahar or kabul, have friends and family that do business there and I do interact with them almost on daily basis. I have no political or economic aspirations in watan. Uncle sam kaka has been kind and I do OK in USA.

My impressions of pashtoo and pashtoons is many from KP, a little from Quetta which i have visited quite a few times, some friends from FATA and some visits there, mainly khyber. Nothing else.

Nomads I have seen I must confess, here and there, I dont think anyone in the next 100 years will ask them for what to do in PK. They have no role to play in the making of any sort of social or political movement in KP. Hence there irrelevance. I am not sure if they wield more power in afghanistan, may be they do, God bless you guys then, if they do. We are a little far away from having a 'koochi' sardar as our boss.

More pashtoons are killed by fellow pashtoons in pakhtunkhwa than are killed by americans. I dont have absolute statistics but can safely say that if we count all the murders in KP that occur daily, from family clashes, domestic violence, tribal friction, suicide bombing, taliban killing and vise versa, the total is probably a lot more than NATA killing of afghans on a daily basis.
since you like facts, here is one calculated murder rate in peshawar (22.9/100,000/ year)http://www.ayubmed.edu.pk/JAMC/PAST/...ar%20MArri.pdf
extrapolate to the whole KP/FATA the rate comes to 4400-5500/ year. The study was in 2002, a year of no talib voilence as MMA was in power, now you can imagine what it is.
compared to civilian deaths by NATO is less than a few hundred Afghanistan civilian casualties: year by year, month by month. Visualised data | News | guardian.co.uk


We have way bigger problems than who is pumping karzai and dha cha pa moor sook ****** dhi. Our culture is in decay, economic activity is at a stand still, social order is disintegrating, and nobody knows what to do.

Ka pa sijdoo dha sizoona sameeday noo thar hussa ba 'mars' tha las zalla thalee oo.

These references listed here detail a very sad and disheartening picture of what happens in Peshawar, none the less they only deal with Peshawar and more over the scalar distribution of the but let's turn the argument around on it's head. More Americans are killed every year by more Americans than by Muslims/Middle Easterners/Pashtuns, every year. In fact the Sept 11 which killed 3000 people, was not the leading cause of violent death in 2001. Yet regardless, the U.S. took it as an initiative to go into combat and entrench themselves into the South Central Asian region for nearly a decade now. Not attempting to compare our motives with America's. The point is what happens between ourselves are internal issues issues we must address amongst ourselves, what happens due to a foreign military power is no longer an internal issue but an external problem imposed on the population.


The measure of variables in human misery is not simply death, although that is the most apparent; Numerous variables and measure of the grotesque impact of American Intrusion/Occupation military aggression are having far outreaching consequences on Pashtoons than any Phantom Boogeymen Arabs or murders in Peshawar can account for.

Take for example Socio-Economics, American intervention has affected Khyber Pakhtunkwah adversely; their supply to the Pakistani Army/Military has allowed them to impose themselves against the population which curtails the economic functions and relationships in the local region and arrests their day to day lives, just to serve the American agenda. Local resources are being allocated to serve American geopolitical interests. And this is simply the impact of surface military activities; the impact of Capitalism on a global scale and it's hegemonistic interference with the natural economic relationships of a people is far reaching and accounts of why there is destitution in Asian states who have experienced the brunt of Capitalist/Industrial attritions.

Environmentally and Public Health; America has used Depleted Uranium in Eastern Afghanistan; I describe these things as being a form of Radioactive Genocide. What sort of health and environmental consequences would such a a situation have? Creating multitudes of genetic illnesses, completely debilitating large segments of the population; where merely living itself becomes incapable The impact is far reaching and affects millions. At least with deaths in Peshawar, Pashtoons can have potential and capability to survive; the consequence crimes such as these, that will be robbed completely.BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Afghans' uranium levels spark alert

No Arab, Mullah or such has done such, in fact outside of suicide attacks the actual damage or threat to Pashtoon culture and people has been extremely miminal. People still speak Pashto, dance Attan, have a chance to survive and retain their dignity despite those; but the case isn't true in the opposite situation, Capitalist Imperialism. if you're willing to "tolerate the impacts" of American/Capitalist intrusion, then the priorities you have is more against your people than for it.


Your angst with Islaam is levied upon the fulcrum of "a night out with friends without the worry of unverified variables"; and this outweighs your concern for the detriment to life of the average Pashtoon that Imperialism in it's historical and contemporary form...when you examine things without selective reference of facts and realities.

[Baygham]

These references listed here detail a very sad and disheartening picture of what happens in Peshawar, none the less they only deal with Peshawar and more over the scalar distribution of the but let's turn the argument around on it's head. More Americans are killed every year by more Americans than by Muslims/Middle Easterners/Pashtuns, every year. In fact the Sept 11 which killed 3000 people, was not the leading cause of violent death in 2001. Yet regardless, the U.S. took it as an initiative to go into combat and entrench themselves into the South Central Asian region for nearly a decade now. Not attempting to compare our motives with America's. The point is what happens between ourselves are internal issues issues we must address amongst ourselves, what happens due to a foreign military power is no longer an internal issue but an external problem imposed on the population.


The measure of variables in human misery is not simply death, although that is the most apparent; Numerous variables and measure of the grotesque impact of American Intrusion/Occupation military aggression are having far outreaching consequences on Pashtoons than any Phantom Boogeymen Arabs or murders in Peshawar can account for.

Take for example Socio-Economics, American intervention has affected Khyber Pakhtunkwah adversely; their supply to the Pakistani Army/Military has allowed them to impose themselves against the population which curtails the economic functions and relationships in the local region and arrests their day to day lives, just to serve the American agenda. Local resources are being allocated to serve American geopolitical interests. And this is simply the impact of surface military activities; the impact of Capitalism on a global scale and it's hegemonistic interference with the natural economic relationships of a people is far reaching and accounts of why there is destitution in Asian states who have experienced the brunt of Capitalist/Industrial attritions.

Environmentally and Public Health; America has used Depleted Uranium in Eastern Afghanistan; I describe these things as being a form of Radioactive Genocide. What sort of health and environmental consequences would such a a situation have? Creating multitudes of genetic illnesses, completely debilitating large segments of the population; where merely living itself becomes incapable The impact is far reaching and affects millions. At least with deaths in Peshawar, Pashtoons can have potential and capability to survive; the consequence crimes such as these, that will be robbed completely.BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Afghans' uranium levels spark alert

No Arab, Mullah or such has done such, in fact outside of suicide attacks the actual damage or threat to Pashtoon culture and people has been extremely miminal. People still speak Pashto, dance Attan, have a chance to survive and retain their dignity despite those; but the case isn't true in the opposite situation, Capitalist Imperialism. if you're willing to "tolerate the impacts" of American/Capitalist intrusion, then the priorities you have is more against your people than for it.


Your angst with Islaam is levied upon the fulcrum of "a night out with friends without the worry of unverified variables"; and this outweighs your concern for the detriment to life of the average Pashtoon that Imperialism in it's historical and contemporary form...when you examine things without selective reference of facts and realities.

This is your impression SX, things on the ground are different, I am privy to the best economical reports of the area, long before americans came there. Americans are not in pakhtoon land to help us become better human beings. They have their internal reasons with global geopolitical repurcussions. Pashtoons are not part of that debate, our dicisions are being done for us by Tajiks and punjabies because we dont talk to the 600 pounds gorilla in the room, we have the gazillion pound God on our side. Such rubbish makes us one of the most exploited nation in the world. All I wish for is a direct channel with the 600 pound gorilla so we can soothe its desire for what ever and go back to growing and selling chewing tobacco (naswar). since this is a big service for the 600 hundred pound gorilla, we may be able to emulate what happened in South korea or war ravaged germany and japan. The gorilla is here, why not turn our fate, its just that simple, why let a million corporations and outsiders profit from our misery, why not aim for some progress ourselves, under the circumstances.

And I dont understand why you got so irked by my "evening with friends", you know we are not even allowed to gather peacefully without having 10 guards on the look out for suicide children pumped up by zeolots for outsiders to shun us from a debate. I am not talking about a night out with dancing girls and wiskey, I am talking about a private gathering to discuss our fate.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

This is your impression SX, things on the ground are different, I am privy to the best economical reports of the area, long before americans came there. Americans are not in pakhtoon land to help us become better human beings. They have their internal reasons with global geopolitical repurcussions. Pashtoons are not part of that debate, our dicisions are being done for us by Tajiks and punjabies because we dont talk to the 600 pounds gorilla in the room, we have the gazillion pound God on our side. Such rubbish makes us one of the most exploited nation in the world. All I wish for is a direct channel with the 600 pound gorilla so we can soothe its desire for what ever and go back to growing and selling chewing tobacco (naswar). since this is a big service for the 600 hundred pound gorilla, we may be able to emulate what happened in South korea or war ravaged germany and japan. The gorilla is here, why not turn our fate, its just that simple, why let a million corporations and outside profit from our misery, why not aim for some progress ourselves, under the circumstances.

And I dont understand why you got so irked by my "evening with friends", you know we are not even allowed to gather peacefully without having 10 guards on the look out for suicide children pumped up by zeolots for outsiders to shun us from a debate.

Well I guess thats a fair question, but you have to allow for a fair answer. The problem is that historically, exploitation follows attempts at harnassing what those corporate interests want in the third world. Japan appears to be an exception to the rule and its case study is one that I need to read up on (it had no riches to exploit though). However, I refer you to the issues in Nigeria:

"Oilmen looking for an alternative to the politically troubled oil fields of the Middle East think they see one beneath the waters off West Africa. The bad news is that the arc of nations stretching along the shore of the Gulf of Guinea from the Ivory Coast to Angola looks as politically testing as Arabian ones," Paul Maidment wrote March 10, 2003, in Forbes.

"the BBC reported that MEND was fighting for "total control" of the Niger Delta's oil wealth, saying local people had not gained from the riches under the ground and the region's creeks and swamps."[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...he_Niger_Delta

So I think at times what you are seeing when you read our posts is that you bunch us together and assume that this has even 10% to do with religion. Even amongst ourselves, Alchemist, SXEdge, and I have divergent views.

Much of my motivation comes from historical precedent. In fact, if you read a lot of what I wrote, my understanding of the Quran and sunnah is cursory and based on self study. But as I noted, you assign a God motivation to each of my thought processes that just doesnt exist. My education and knowledge of history, of Tecumseh the Brave, of Wallace and Bruce, of Guevara, or our own revolution, of Simon Bolivar... these are my reference points as much as my faith.

In fact, here is an interesting story to show you that religion only plays a part of the role in this conflict, some of it is personal, some of it is has to do with resources, and a bunch of it has to do with the fact that Pashtuns view land as being a sacred commodity. Go try to buy land in Qandahar... they ask you where your family is from, what clan you derive from, where your father is buried etc.:

http://freedomsyndicate.com/fair0000/times0045.html

[ScimitarXEdge]

You can ask me directly SX, and I meant what I said in my private post. I respect your position, but you see you are an apostate to them just like me. In pakistan they have and will kill you for what you believe in. It is not even a matter of right or wrong, but about a fundamentaly more basic question. Do we as humans even have the right to believe what we think is right or not. I say we do. The beliefs that you have in a western country where you are not threatened for them, cannot be kept in Pakhtunkhwa, my experiment is unfolding on that other thread as we speak.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...arxedge-13489/

As far as my sister dating a kafir or musalman gringo, If she is 18 and settled in life, my love and support for her will not change, regardless of whether she chooses to become a mutazali, or an atheist, whether she dates a negro or a gringo. I hope that she will carry herself with dignity and honor because I believe she will, if she chooses not to, goes and becomes a topless dancer, something I dont endorse for anyone, I will be disappointed and will show my disappointment by voicing it and not by violence.

I was reading that thread, and I will say that you have been pretty intellectually dishonest in your use of quotations and even the example that you relied on to support your claim.

First Shimla himself follows an interpretation derived from Salafism, which is a minority stream of thought amongst Muslims in general nevermind Pashtoons. they do not represent mainstream Islam.

Secondly; Sangar and I have known each other for quite awhile. I knew him in times in which if you were to compare who he is now with who he is then, you'd believe you're speaking of two completely different people. In fact you might be surprised to know that he was very similar to you not long ago; who knows maybe you'll end up a Salafi in a few years? Much like you feel this angst for waking up your loved ones; I too am vexed by you, I feel the same towards you as you do with others, I wish I could shake you and wake you up. Your explanation of your moral or lack of a moral attitude here is disheartening.

he never levied takfir on me, but has spoken of my views critically as an abberation. It's important to note that while Islaam does mandate that Allah(swt) is right and that there can be no err; it doesn't however deem certain ways of understanding the truth as necessarily rendering oneself an apostate; much like there are certain criteria as to how Islaam determines it's creed, there are certain standards that determines if someone is outside the creed.

As long as someone believes in the Absoluteness of Allah(swt), that Qur'an is the revelation of Allah(swt) to Muhammad (saw) and the explicit injunctions, that Muhammad(saw) is his final messenger, one is Muslim; everything else is secondary in identifying Muslimhood. So he didn't call me a kafir; the most he did was say my perceptions on certain matters are abberations from the position he endorses. If merely disagreeing on a position itself was enough to expel one from Islam, then Imam Malik, Hanifa, Hanbali and Shafi'i would be deeming each other kufar. There are certain categories on which one must disregard to be a kafir. Which even Sangar and others know I have never crossed.


On the issue of violence and cohesion to social standards; Violence is a serious issue and should not be addressed as a casual matter, the choice of acting upon violence is something which has long standing impact and should be deliberated carefully. However, but I'm not a pacifist. I don't take Adam nd Eve literally, much like you I believe in the Naturalistic interpretation of anthropogenesis; I also believe that humans have an intrinsic faculty which evokes violence but similarly we have a faculty that illicits peace. Anthropologically speaking, I have come to peace with human nature, both the violent aspects and the peaceful and gentle ones; they're both necessary components of the human experience. However, I see both aspects as evolving to serve certain general aims and when either go out of hand they end of causing detriment. Generally societies have applied violence in context to situations which their general access to the means of survival and/or when the behavior of one of it's members is not compatible with the continuity of the societal fabric. I cannot say that I would think the situation described would be compatible with the continuity of Pashtoons or people of our region in general; sometimes dealing such situations swiftly is what's better for us.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Mahmood, its Shamla. Not Shimla. I am not an India city. You az a fellow Ghaljay should know.