Toramana appreciation thread

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Except a few discussions I had with LZ and Dust, most of the secular moderate atheists here, including Baygham, rarely present arguments that are intellectually stimulating. Much of it, if I may say, is hot steam build up over years of personal frustration looking for relief. Some of the arguments presented by Baygham hurt his position more then help it. As a civilized, moderate, humanist atheist, I called him out on his homophobic tendencies before:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...phy-laws-5777/

Ironic, that he is asking ScimitarXEdge to "melt in the melting pot" while all along a as evolved Pukhtoon atheist he wishes to acclimatize the entire Pukhtoon society to his own newly found, non-Pukhtoon, mostly Western, ideologies. If anyone should just give up and melt in the meltinqug pot, as I suggested before, are these atheists. Particularly who wish to enforce cultures and social norms complete alien to Pukhtoons. You have evolved, you have found a new way of life, good for you. Move on, don't let nostalgia hold you back.

Oh, for that Baygham had an excuse as well, he said that the world won't let him. That's why he remains to be a Pukhtoon and chooses to associates with them. The Western world? As far as I know, in the West, aka the melting pot, no one cares about your race, sex or origin. You choose to hold on to your ethnic baggage, and now wish to drag the whole of your ethnic populace with you into your new understandings. And how does he do it? He says that they, most of them, majority of them, suffer from a diseases called "Islam". His own words.....It's like that saying....the village laughs at the idiot, and the idiot laughs at the village.

Sort your complexes out. Let go.

I think that you were trying to give them a Jon Stewartesque style wake up call to the contradictions inherent in their positions, but they used that against you and attacked your form of delivery. I made that hard for them when I utilized Ahmad Shah Baba... all they could say was that Islamacized someone who had previously Islamacized himself. Wait, gulalai is an athiest? Not that it matters, but am I reading this right?

[Baygham]

So if I come over to your house and sleep with any female member with her consent ... you wouldn't mind even if it was your wife?


just answer ..yes or no...

your avatar amply shows that the energy in your sacral chakra is way out of whack(red- too hot). Before coming to my house, visit your mom/sister so the chakras balances out.

Afterwards you are welcome. Remember I wont make decisions for others (ie a wife, in case I had one, i wont make decisions for her). If she chooses you, she is free to leave me. I dont need chains to tie her down. Know my place and will apply the same moral principles to my behavior when it comes to me sleeping around.

[Admin Khan]

I think that you were trying to give them a Jon Stewartesque style wake up call to the contradictions inherent in their positions, but they used that against you and attacked your form of delivery. I made that hard for them when I utilized Ahmad Shah Baba... all they could say was that Islamacized someone who had previously Islamacized himself. Wait, gulalai is an athiest? Not that it matters, but am I reading this right?

We have two Gulalais.

-Gulalai = Muslim
gulalai= Atheist, since she attends an Ivy-league, she is busy with school.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

your avatar amply shows that the energy in your sacral chakra is way out of whack(red- too hot). Before coming to my house, visit your mom/sister so the chakras balances out.

Afterwards you are welcome. Remember I wont make decisions for others (ie a wife, in case I had one, i wont make decisions for her). If she chooses you, she is free to leave me. I dont need chains to tie her down. Know my place and will apply the same moral principles to my behavior when it comes to me sleeping around.

Great hedging answer.

I read that back and forth with Wrayun way back when. Do you live on some Pashtun colony on Mars comprised of folks that have lost complete touch with reality?

What kind of sick nut case are you? Oh right, the kind that somehow ignores American, Russian, and every other nation's textbooks on Najib and somehow turns a ******* into a saint.

People like you ought to be airdropped right into the middle of Kandahar so you can see how long you last when you mouth your filth in the open. That, my friend, would be the ultimate real world test of your ideology.

See how long you last in any village chowk with a loud horn when you say what you do. At least your colleague Osho had enough sense to admit that the Pashtun majority think of you guys as depraved automatons mouthing the same rhetoric as if you read off the same script.

[Baygham]

Was this written out of irony or self deluded stupidity? It appears you're more eager to melt Pakhtun society and culture into the European Hegemonistic Melting pot of Neocolonial enterprise, than anyone else here. Hence this clearly Northern European concocted model of sexual politics.

And please don't pretend you're some "Sada Asle Pakhtun" from Pakhtunkhwah; your idioms, semantics and value structure reek of thorough acculturation to mores completely alien to Pakhtuns, i.e. colonized mentality by the hands of Europeans; you were clearly raised somewhere outside of Pakhtunkhwah/Afghanistan or the like, if you are Pakhtun that is which is rapidly coming into doubt the more you blather

All the typical staple errorneous rebuttal tactics like "Arab Folklore" something traditionally peddled by completely uneducated Orientalists are employed as the usual scapegoats. Anyone learned on the matter is familiar between the vast distinctions between the folklore of Arabs and the Islamic Ideology.

How pathetic to see you claiming yourself as some official spokes person of Pakhtuns when every viewpoint you hold is opposed and rejected by Pakhtun values, principles and and sociocultural norms. If you haven't checked the overwhelming majority of Pakhtuns identify with Islam, those who don't are conventionally not Pakhtun, or from some poor South Asian society who's culture being wrought by European colonization, have been reduced to suffering an inferiority complex due to historical attempts at conditioning the populace have deludedly identified European cultural norms as a model of life. You seem to fit into the later category. The hubris you have to imply Islam is a poison or something alien to Pakhtuns when it's had centuries to assimilate and interweave itself into the Pakhtun societal matrix, all the while promoting self destructive modes of sexual behavior which have created dysfunctional sociocultural norms in Industrial/Capitalist/Imperialist societies. The cigarette analogy seems to be more befitting in your case here; especially considering how huge such industry the industry of deviant forms of sense gratification which go against their evolutionary functions are in Capitalist cultures.

Addressing belief, sexual mores; Theyr'e not only Allah(swt)'s buisness, they're society's business too. Beliefs and ideas determine everything from the allocation of resources, the application of resources and their directives to social interactions and dealings. Everything depends on beliefs and principles and ideas. to Equate them to such casual things like shirt choice is like comparing eating a candy bar to eating nourishing food. Yes they're both choices; but one is needed, the other is negligible. Society has always developed such rules of those to regulate it by those who are compatible with it's mode of operations and those who are not, the "nots" are those who are expunged, whether by death or ostracization; this is an anthropological reality; to deny this is only to live in the Fairy Tale and Folk lore of Europeans. What's done in the "name of Islam" and what's Islamic teachings are not the same. Anyone can falsely use a name to scapegoat under, this however does not make it ratified under Islam. Islam is free of blame, it is only those who attempt to falsely represent it who are called into account. It's no surprise that those who do unislamic things in Islam's name, are not following Islam.

Here's my analysis, you're dysfunctional, and have a tendency to endorse self destructive behaviors; this is all a tragic byproduct of feeling like a lesser form of life compared to Northern Europeans. I mean why wouldn't you? You've had them tell you day in and day out of your upbringing in Canada that their environmentally destructive, resource wasting way of life is the pinnacle of human progress and advancement; you never questioned it because they imposed this standard standard upon every aspect of life. So here you are with this complex, this persistent anxiety which cannot be tamed. You hate your own existence, and life itself and want so bad to desecrate it in whatever way possible to appease this resentment; you're ostracized by Pakhtuns, people you want so badly to be apart of because of the historical prestige of resisting Europeans, all the while wanting them to succumb to Europeans to compensate this feeling of inadequacy. You're a tortured soul, with mental illness. Are you sure it's not you who needs a competent psychiatrist here?

SX I am impressed. I appreciate such well written position statement from you. Just a correction, I was born and raised in Pakhtunkwha and you can safely put me in the blessed in USA. Never have I ever been put down by anyone in america or pakhtunkhwa, and no my repulsion of religion as practiced in pakhtunkhwa does not come from being sodomized in a madrassa (like countless of my pashtoon brothers) but because of the suffocation it has created in watan, and yes I was a victim of that suffocation.

This is a useless forum, of no meaning what so ever, in the lives of even one pakhtoon. I know guys like me dont roam the streets of peshawar in droves, but to think that they dont even exist is equally erroneous.

You have as much of a right to see your version of the world as I have to see mine.

Beliefs are the foundation of our cognition. Every second I make an assumption as to how the next moment will be. And if it is not, I adjust my predicting paradigm. The problem arises when a whole nation engages in behavior where the assumptions are unverifiable but the cost of its enactment is over overwhelmingly burdensome. If it was a mere 10-15 % in a monastery one could let it go, but when the whole culture is paralyzed in a future fantasy that never shakes them up as it is unverifiable, the folly goes on and on.

Now if you saw your whole family in such a strange state, would you not wish to shake them up a little so they wake up, enjoy the morning sunrise, smell the roses, cuddle with a loved one, enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm( a tedious exercise mind you something akin to catholic guilt rather than human compassion).

And since when is being present in the moment and having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verifiable events in life get western ownership. Every animal that ever roamed the earth has such sense. Our own culture is full of short statements that emphasize some such nuggets of wisdom.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

We have two Gulalais.

-Gulalai = Muslim
gulalai= Atheist, since she attends an Ivy-league, she is busy with school.

Thanks for the clarification. Ill see you guys in a few days... I'm off to Atlanta tomorrow. Till then Edge, you can take care of these automaton clowns. After all, its the same script they read from... it was communism in Abdul Samad Achekzai's day when he was all over Lenin's crotch junk and now booom, its secularism. Next its going to be bangra-ism with India's rise (after all they simultaneously endorse a pashtun state yet are a part of Pakistan's government). I think they manufacture these guys at a factory outside of Quetta. At the end of the assembly line, they emulate the building of an ice cream sundae. On the ice cream sundae they put that maraschino cherry on top... these guys wear get some kind of goofy red cap.

Fairly interesting how they claim that a Pashtun born abroad cannot understand their struggle... yet David Petreus can gaze deep into Baygham's eyes and see what Baygham and his village want and need. They somehow understand what the Qandahar villager wants more than the villager himself:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...ior-to-karzai/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112104570.html


riiiiiight. My hope is that with their skewed sense of reality we can line these guys up and ask them to jump up. Since in their bizarro world right is left and down is up they might do us a favor and fall into a ravine or gully somewhere.

[Wrayun]

I think that you were trying to give them a Jon Stewartesque style wake up call to the contradictions inherent in their positions, but they used that against you and attacked your form of delivery. I made that hard for them when I utilized Ahmad Shah Baba... all they could say was that Islamacized someone who had previously Islamacized himself. Wait, gulalai is an athiest? Not that it matters, but am I reading this right?

Yeah, I got a lot of slack for that, particularly from the highly moral atheists.. lulz..... how dare I blaspheme?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

SX I am impressed. I appreciate such well written position statement from you. Just a correction, I was born and raised in Pakhtunkwha and you can safely put me in the blessed in USA. Never have I ever been put down by anyone in america or pakhtunkhwa, and no my repulsion of religion as practiced in pakhtunkhwa does not come from being sodomized in a madrassa (like countless of my pashtoon brothers) but because of the suffocation it has created in watan, and yes I was a victim of that suffocation.

This is a useless forum, of no meaning what so ever, in the lives of even one pakhtoon. I know guys like me dont roam the streets of peshawar in droves, but to think that they dont even exist is equally erroneous.

You have as much of a right to see your version of the world as I have to see mine.

Beliefs are the foundation of our cognition. Every second I make an assumption as to how the next moment will be. And if it is not, I adjust my predicting paradigm. They problem arises when a whole nation engages in behavior where the assumptions are unverifiable but the cost of its enactment is over overwhelmingly burdensome. If it was a mere 10-15 % in a monastery one could let it go, but when the whole culture is paralyzed in a future fantasy that never shakes them up as it is unverifiable, the folly goes on and on.

Now if you saw your whole family in such a strange state, would you not wish to shake them up a little so they wake up, enjoy the morning sunrise, smell the roses, cuddle with a loved one, enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm.

And since when is being present in the moment and having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verifiable events in life get western ownership. Every animal that ever roamed the earth has such sense, that I believe is before western hegemony. Our own culture is full of short statements that emphasize some such nuggets of wisdom.

Easy answer. Interventionalism does nothing of the sort. It breeds reactionary mentalities. Take a look at the development of the Massachussetts bay colony. It was a theocracy under the great grandfather of nathaniel hawthorne. The Puritans practice strict Christian theocracy to the point of killing droves of women for being witches. Left alone, it progressed to the point that Hawthorne the younger is constantly apologizing for the actions of his ancestors in nearly all his writings.

All your interventionalism does is undo whatever idiotic gains you think you will garner by forcing your "paradigms" on a people. What is sickening is that you use American boys and girls to do this at the barrell of the gun without being able to do a damn thing yourself.

[randolph85]

show me an example of the watan without islam. i am not talking about this new wave of foreign influenced extremism, but any history or form of our culture which was no influenced or driven by islam.

its ironic, if u dislike islam, then u must really hate pashtunwali.

besides afghan communists or pashtun nationalists within the confines of their mansions, ur ideas would be deemed as hostile to pashtuns.

[Wrayun]

You know what's interesting...most of these guys (secular atheists) were around when all the theists here were Quran and Hadith quoters. They were having a blast with them, as anyone would...even I do. Now that we have a few thinkers...I don't see them around.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

show me an example of the watan without islam. i am not talking about this new wave of foreign influenced extremism, but any history or form of our culture which was no influenced or driven by islam.

its ironic, if u dislike islam, then u must really hate pashtunwali.

besides afghan communists or pashtun nationalists within the confines of their mansions, ur ideas would be deemed as hostile to pashtuns.

See you in a few days. Just refer to every other rehashed argument these guys have used and abused in the past. At least he and Osho are beginning to crack and admit that they comprise a minority subsegment of the greater whole at best. Thats progress.

[Parsistani]

I think Islam has been Arabized and it\'s not what it is today. If you read our Persian history you can see what these Arabs did under the context of bringing Islam.

[randolph85]

I think Islam has been Arabized and it\'s not what it is today. If you read our Persian history you can see what these Arabs did under the context of bringing Islam.

how does a religion, which has been the same since day 1 become arabized?

[randolph85]

See you in a few days. Just refer to every other rehashed argument these guys have used and abused in the past. At least he and Osho are beginning to crack and admit that they comprise a minority subsegment of the greater whole at best. Thats progress.

i like these guys, they keep me on my toes and give me something to do. take care and see u later.

[Parsistani]

how does a religion, which has been the same since day 1 become arabized?

You Pashtuns just don\'t get it.