Toramana appreciation thread

[ScimitarXEdge]

Pashtoon nationalist is your label, not mine. Persiwans are our brothers and neighbours. We will find a way to live in harmony with one another. We do not have such relations with say the chinese or the arabs or nubians in africa. We wish them well and only are upset if they interfere in our affairs by exporting deadly ideologies. If iran is doing the same to parsiwans and that causes more turmoil than shame on that too. Pakistan has been doing the same for decades.

In the end we will have to live with each other and that requires that we stop dying for outsiders. Since most of the turmoil is religious, stop dying for arabs first, than iran, than others. There are sunni parsiwans too, they wont want iranian hegemony over them.

In any case things in pakhtunkhwa are a touch different. we have a lot more structure and capacity to integrate globally. as things stand this american presence can be pure Gold for us. Now a little change of kaaba and we will be all set.LOL

You missed my point entirely; my argument wasnt against Persians or Persian culture, nor was it based on some farcical sectarian conflicts between Sunni and Shi'a. I adore much of Persian culture, especially during the Islamic Era when Persian society really shined in it's intellectual life in comparison to their persistent humiliation in the Achamenid and Sassanid era. I have relatives who are parsiwan.

I used the term Persian Nationalist for these Perso-Centric thinking individuals such as Parsistanti, take a good look at his arguments, both on this forum and outside of the forum on the internet, as others on this forum who is familiar with the propaganda of this character. He wishes for extermination of Pashtoons. Their heros are individuals under whom the Pashtoons had not perceived conflicts with as you view with Arabs, but defacto conflicts where they sought by explicit policy to eradicate Pashtoon society on every level. I too see the possibility of living in harmony with Persians, I do not buy into these Iranian Hegemony or Arab Hegemony deal based on Shi'ism or Sunnism; that's all Imperialist smoke and mirrors. My point was this false victimization of Persian- Nationalists was used by their Rulers against Pashtoons historically. did you forget the Safawids and Qajars?

We not only have relation with Arabs, we're more similar to Arabs than we are Persians, in so much our customs and lifestyle is concerned, because we lived a similar lifestyle of Nomadism historically. The only agenda that thinks the "American presence" is pure gold is one that seeks the imperialism of the European. If that's your Ka'aba, then you're enemy of mankind nevermind Pashtoons.

[Baygham]

You missed my point entirely; my argument wasnt against Persians or Persian culture, nor was it based on some farcical sectarian conflicts between Sunni and Shi'a. I adore much of Persian culture, especially during the Islamic Era when Persian society really shined in it's intellectual life in comparison to their persistent humiliation in the Achamenid and Sassanid era. I have relatives who are parsiwan.

I used the term Persian Nationalist for these Perso-Centric thinking individuals such as Parsistanti, take a good look at his arguments, both on this forum and outside of the forum on the internet, as others on this forum who is familiar with the propaganda of this character. He wishes for extermination of Pashtoons. Their heros are individuals under whom the Pashtoons had not perceived conflicts with as you view with Arabs, but defacto conflicts where they sought by explicit policy to eradicate Pashtoon society on every level. I too see the possibility of living in harmony with Persians, I do not buy into these Iranian Hegemony or Arab Hegemony deal based on Shi'ism or Sunnism; that's all Imperialist smoke and mirrors. My point was this false victimization of Persian- Nationalists was used by their Rulers against Pashtoons historically. did you forget the Safawids and Qajars?

We not only have relation with Arabs, we're more similar to Arabs than we are Persians, in so much our customs and lifestyle is concerned, because we lived a similar lifestyle of Nomadism historically. The only agenda that thinks the "American presence" is pure gold is one that seeks the imperialism of the European. If that's your Ka'aba, then you're enemy of mankind nevermind Pashtoons.

Safawids, qajars, mughals, even colonial british have nothing to do with things as they stand today. Secondly there may be nomads roaming around in small groups, the majority of pashtoons are and have been for a very long time neither nomads nor have the nomad mentality. We love our land and stick to it for dear life.

Just like egypt the new leadership coming out of pakhtunkhwa will be globally oriented and not kaaba centric. This is not wishful thinking or some colonial scheme, its just the way thing are.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Safawids, qajars, mughals, even colonial british have nothing to do with things as they stand today. Secondly there may be nomads roaming around in small groups, the majority of pashtoons are and have been for a very long time neither nomads nor have the nomad mentality. We love our land and stick to it for dear life.

Just like egypt the new leadership coming out of pakhtunkhwa will be globally oriented and not kaaba centric. This is not wishful thinking or some colonial scheme, its just the way thing are.

On the contrary, they have everything to do with the way things stand today; because it was the events established and solidified by these groups which are why we are experiencing the things we. Do you honestly believe that the Imperialist societies are where they are because of hard work? No, it was through corruption, crooked practices and destroying the natural balances of life which exist for people across the world that they were able to acquire this immoral status of exploitation.

Nomadism plays a central role in Pashtoon society and always have even as Pashtoons have became sedentary; the customs, practices and ideals have basis our nomadic experiences. Much like Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula have adopted sedentary lives but still retain their roots in nomadism. The actual practice of Nomadism amongst Afghan Pashtoons is ostensibly high, to regard this as merely some narrow margin is just evidence that one either is not familiar/apart of Pashtoon culture or simply in denial. Also, the love of the Earth and the land is precisely rooted in the nomadic relationships; not exclusive from it; denying this while claiming to "Love land for dear life" is purely disingenuous without being able to identify this trait and such notions are born of lacking familiarity.

This bizarre dichotomy played out with fabricated terminology such as "Ka'aba Centric" and "Globally Oriented" is something purely manufactured by Imperial rhetoric and orientalism; also capitalist Neocolonalism known today as "globalisaion". The entire paradigm of what defines this strata is imperial at it's core. To say it isn't is merely out right lying. Like I said before ; the only agenda which wishes these Euro-manufctured modes of what progres is; are not those who want to benefit humanity or Pashtoons, but the corrupt destruction of our planet and the dignity of human life at the hands of Europeans.

[Baygham]

On the contrary, they have everything to do with the way things stand today; because it was the events established and solidified by these groups which are why we are experiencing the things we. Do you honestly believe that the Imperialist societies are where they are because of hard work? No, it was through corruption, crooked practices and destroying the natural balances of life which exist for people across the world that they were able to acquire this immoral status of exploitation.

Nomadism plays a central role in Pashtoon society and always have even as Pashtoons have became sedentary; the customs, practices and ideals have basis our nomadic experiences. Much like Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula have adopted sedentary lives but still retain their roots in nomadism. The actual practice of Nomadism amongst Afghan Pashtoons is ostensibly high, to regard this as merely some narrow margin is just evidence that one either is not familiar/apart of Pashtoon culture or simply in denial. Also, the love of the Earth and the land is precisely rooted in the nomadic relationships; not exclusive from it; denying this while claiming to "Love land for dear life" is purely disingenuous without being able to identify this trait and such notions are born of lacking familiarity.

This bizarre dichotomy played out with fabricated terminology such as "Ka'aba Centric" and "Globally Oriented" is something purely manufactured by Imperial rhetoric and orientalism; also capitalist Neocolonalism known today as "globalisaion". The entire paradigm of what defines this strata is imperial at it's core. To say it isn't is merely out right lying. Like I said before ; the only agenda which wishes these Euro-manufctured modes of what progres is; are not those who want to benefit humanity or Pashtoons, but the corrupt destruction of our planet and the dignity of human life at the hands of Europeans.

I just came from pakhtunkhwa two weeks ago, met with over a 100 small scale to large scale wheelers and deelers, I saw not a single nomad. Not only that none of their immediate ancestors were nomads. Now if in the thirteenth century some idiot was grazing sheep, than so be it. But the majority and that is greater than 99% in KP are not and have never been nomads. We do not have nomadic ideology or even minuscule preferences that we would share with such. Get over this nomad kinship with arabia.

None cared if the kaaba faced north or south, they were simple people and wanted a God acceptable to kin and family and to make a living. They found themselves trapped in an abyss and most had no clue how to climb out. They were ready for change, good, bad, ugly anything but something. They had been exploited by friends and foes alike and they were exhausted.

All they want is a decent living, relevance in a changing world, better standard of living and less exploitation. Arabian honor was on none of their minds. All would be OK with a less toxic fabrication of Gods and hurs that does not hinder the other more mundane things.

I did not see a form, like the one in Eygpt, that requires a lot more education and a lot more disposable cash, none yet prevalent in KP, but it is changing in that direction. And afghanistan will follow.

Pashtoons understand might is right, they lived by exploitation and mayhem for centuries. We were not some humanistic earth loving greens in harmony with the ecosystem. We were and sometimes still are savages by any account. It served us well when other bigger savages come to conquer, but is now a hinderance. Like the Samurai its time to go and change cultural dependence on that.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I just came from pakhtunkhwa two weeks ago, met with over a 100 small scale to large scale wheelers and deelers, I saw not a single nomad. Not only that none of their immediate ancestors were nomads. Now if in the thirteenth century some idiot was grazing sheep, than so be it. But the majority and that is greater than 99% in KP are not and have never been nomads. We do not have nomadic ideology or even minuscule preferences that we would share with such. Get over this nomad kinship with arabia.

None cared if the kaaba faced north or south, they were simple people and wanted a God acceptable to kin and family and to make a living. They found themselves trapped in an abyss and most had no clue how to climb out. They were ready for change, good, bad, ugly anything but something. They had been exploited by friends and foes alike and they were exhausted.

All they want is a decent living, relevance in a changing world, better standard of living and less exploitation. Arabian honor was on none of their minds. All would be OK with a less toxic fabrication of Gods and hurs that does not hinder the other more mundane things.

I did not see a form, like the one in Eygpt, that requires a lot more education and a lot more disposable cash, none yet prevalent in KP, but it is changing in that direction. And afghanistan will follow.

Pashtoons understand might is right, they lived by exploitation and mayhem for centuries. We were not some humanistic earth loving greens in harmony with the ecosystem. We were and sometimes still are savages by any account. It served us well when other bigger savages come to conquer, but is now a hinderance. Like the Samurai its time to go and change cultural dependence on that.

The reason you didn't see any nomads is because Pakhtunkhwah is not located in the UK, Canada or the U.S. it's located on the fringe of South Central Asia. Nomads are all over the region and even have political representation in Afghanistan. Powanda/Kuchi are stilll, highly present, there are something like 3 Million Pashtun/Pakhtun Nomads in Afghanistan alone. That's nearly 1/3rd of Pashtuns there. Your lack of knowledge of this is because you're from a culture completely alien not only to Pashtoons but to the Middle East and Central Asia as well.

The point here wasn't to embrace this fascination for Nomadism; personally I think Nomads live the most ecologically sensible lifestyle, but I digress. What my point was is to demonstrate how these arbitrary lines you draw are totally false. While I do see parallels with Persian cultures and Pashtoons, for obvious linguistic connections, the dress and behavior of a Yemeni Arab, including dances and customs, moral ideals and simply way of life in general are more analagous with Pashtoons and vice versa than Pashtoons are with Persians. In fact very little of Pashtoon society has analog with Persian culture. Yemenis have their own type of "Pashtoonwali" based on similar lines. This isn't due to an Arab invasion or cultural subjugation; but just natural relationships with the ecological order. Granted there are ethic groups who share comparable degrees of affiliation, such as Kurds, Lurs, Balouch, Qashqai (possibly related to Ghilzai Pashtuns); but the point was to demonstrate is the Middle East and Central Asia have been so historically interwoven and has had such a high degree of cross cultural infiltration over centuries; that everyone from Marrakesch to Kashgar are bonded our brethren. That's just how it is.

Once again all that is being peddled here are these false dichotomies and shallow attempts at emotional anecdoting. What does the direction of the Ka'aba have to do with the simplicity of life of people? Surely people from Marrakesch to Kashgar have for the most part lived simple lives and still knew of the direction of the Ka'aba. It's not something that required extensive sophistication. IN fact Islaam was a people's movement from the get go, it was based on the principle of a simple life. This portrayal of "simple people" and other symbolic mnemonics here seems to be nothing other than an emotive ploy; but one which is extremely transparent. As if somehow it was to trying to feign legitimacy by saying "look see, even the simple people want imperial culture, they need the Handsome Blond Haired Blue eyed Hero depicted in Hollywood films to come and rescue them from the tyranny of their obscure and archaic religion and culture. This is an age old tactic of Orientalist mythology; and yet you accuse others of relying on fairy tales? You can't smokescreen this under the seemingly ambiguous rhetoric of change, we know what paradgm you're referriing to when you say "change"; a destructive, dysfunctional capitalist one. We all want a decent standard of living; but does decent standard of living mean having food and hygiene or a cyborg driven Sci Fi Technocratic wet dream that you seem to endorse? The distnctions need to be made here. Loosely veiled remarks like "relevance in a changing world"; are almost always said in context to cow towing mainstream Global Capitalist Framework; because let's be honest here any global disparity that exists today is intrinsically tied to displacement and disruption of people's natural ecological and economic relationships which has manufactured these issues; what else would they promote than than compliance to capitalist norms as a knife around people's throats to be alleviated. And hence why your gleeful comments celebrating Capitalist Hegemoni vis' a vis America/NATO etc, with your loins tingling over their reward for your services is evidence that Pashtoons were never your concern in the first place; serving the agenda of Northern Europeans is.

I think you fail to understand the revolution in Egypt; the Egyptians are rejecting the Capitalist Paradigm, not embracing it, and this is what is happening globally. No one wants technocracy, why would they? It violates all of our natural instincts and faculties. It's an unsustainable modus operandi which has only succeeded in creating a dysfunctional civilization. As someone who lives in the belly of the beast ; I don't see how your hallucination of Afghanistan or Pakhtunkhwah for that matter becoming a bastion for Ferangi enterprise will come to pass; if the ferangi order itself is falling apart from within, the likliness of what you want to come to pass, is slim to none. Sorry to break the news to you.

Environmentalism and Ecology has nothing to do with some Commercially friendly status quo endorsed conception of being "green" as you seem to think. Ecosystems are rarely ever "humanistic"; they're based on cycles which incorporate broader relationships than only that. However a lack of humanism is not tantamount to exploitation. Pashtoons were "green" as you seem to portray; but the concept of green here is not the domicile flaccid imagery you're steeped in. Pashtoons never destroyed or impaired the ecological relationships or environment of the planet, Pashtuns simply embroiled in the world with rival forces the way which was normal for most of our Earth's geological history; no ecological balances were disrupted. That's what disntinguishes the neocolonial approach from Islam or the pashtoon one. and why the later have legitimacy and the prior doesn't.

Were these" simple people" ...whispering voices in your head by any chances? I believe that might be where your error lies.

[ScimitarXEdge]

SX I am impressed. I appreciate such well written position statement from you. Just a correction, I was born and raised in Pakhtunkwha and you can safely put me in the blessed in USA. Never have I ever been put down by anyone in america or pakhtunkhwa, and no my repulsion of religion as practiced in pakhtunkhwa does not come from being sodomized in a madrassa (like countless of my pashtoon brothers) but because of the suffocation it has created in watan, and yes I was a victim of that suffocation.

This is a useless forum, of no meaning what so ever, in the lives of even one pakhtoon. I know guys like me dont roam the streets of peshawar in droves, but to think that they dont even exist is equally erroneous.

You have as much of a right to see your version of the world as I have to see mine.

Beliefs are the foundation of our cognition. Every second I make an assumption as to how the next moment will be. And if it is not, I adjust my predicting paradigm. The problem arises when a whole nation engages in behavior where the assumptions are unverifiable but the cost of its enactment is over overwhelmingly burdensome. If it was a mere 10-15 % in a monastery one could let it go, but when the whole culture is paralyzed in a future fantasy that never shakes them up as it is unverifiable, the folly goes on and on.

Now if you saw your whole family in such a strange state, would you not wish to shake them up a little so they wake up, enjoy the morning sunrise, smell the roses, cuddle with a loved one, enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm( a tedious exercise mind you something akin to catholic guilt rather than human compassion).

And since when is being present in the moment and having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verifiable events in life get western ownership. Every animal that ever roamed the earth has such sense. Our own culture is full of short statements that emphasize some such nuggets of wisdom.

A very touching and emotive response; but sadly that's all it was. There's too many internal contradictions that it can't be intellectually meritable other being some desperate emotional appeal.

According to you resentment towards Islam is not due to being sodomized, but somehow youn made it a point to use that and symbols of Islamic societal institutions in relation to each other. Almost as if to insintuate that pederastry is product of Islamic doctrines; nevermind the fact that you find such incidences a non religion inclined place like a chaikhana, and happens cross culturally, most notably into your Ideological Holy Lands where Imperial Cultures reside. I would figure someone who

The means by which you measure "folly" and in turn your feelings of "suffocation" are based precisely on the false assumptions you wrongly perceive in what's around you. You act as if no Pashtun male who practices Islam, kisses and cherishes his wife and treats her as his beloved, or that somehow smelling roses and enjoying the morning sunrise are somehow loathesome to Muslims and Islam; a theory which has no basis even in the most austere interpretations of Islamic doctrines. Then it becomes clear what the actual central theme of your message is when you wrote;

"enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm".

That perplexed me for a moment, I thought, why would something as innocent as merely spending an evening with friends somehow be deemed loathesome in the Islamic eye? Then it struck me, that an evening with friends is a veiled description for other activities. As vague and abstract the language; logic, social awareness and common sense can give accurately verifiable models of what's being alluded to here. From what that can be extrapolated,it's apparent that this is the attempt equate the Natural and Healthy ways of expression such as love, celebrating nature, with dysfunctional ones for the sake which you portray yourself as "victim" of some Islamic rendition of "catholic guilt" because it inhibits or censures it, as if it feigns legitimacy for why you resent Islaam..

The problem here however isn't Islaam, but rather whatever it is that motivates you to seek your dysfunctional indulgences; you want so badly to believe otherwise. And this Islaamic version of "catholic guilt" you experience isn't because Islaam imposes something that deprives happiness and contentment; it's this desperation to rationalize and deny what your condition. This would clearly create cognitive dissonance; the inner conflict you experience must be immense.

This whole theatrics of the verifiable vs. the unverifiable isn't what's at play here. In Islam , in so much as life and human social order and dealings millenia of anthropological foundations establish what defines and motivates it's principles and framework. Not the nebulous realm of lacking verfiability that you'd like to portray. What's at play is what you perceive as "having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verfiable evens in life"; is something manufactured and fabricated by the Capitalist Hegemonic Framework; and not something which has any intrinsic analog to life except in the form of some deviated instinct. Your "Suffocation" isn't because of Islaam; but much like I said before, the product of letting some artificial construct of progress define your worth in life and driving this discontent. If you want to break free, that's where to start.

[Baygham]

A very touching and emotive response; but sadly that's all it was. There's too many internal contradictions that it can't be intellectually meritable other being some desperate emotional appeal.

According to you resentment towards Islam is not due to being sodomized, but somehow youn made it a point to use that and symbols of Islamic societal institutions in relation to each other. Almost as if to insintuate that pederastry is product of Islamic doctrines; nevermind the fact that you find such incidences a non religion inclined place like a chaikhana, and happens cross culturally, most notably into your Ideological Holy Lands where Imperial Cultures reside. I would figure someone who

The means by which you measure "folly" and in turn your feelings of "suffocation" are based precisely on the false assumptions you wrongly perceive in what's around you. You act as if no Pashtun male who practices Islam, kisses and cherishes his wife and treats her as his beloved, or that somehow smelling roses and enjoying the morning sunrise are somehow loathesome to Muslims and Islam; a theory which has no basis even in the most austere interpretations of Islamic doctrines. Then it becomes clear what the actual central theme of your message is when you wrote;

"enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm".

That perplexed me for a moment, I thought, why would something as innocent as merely spending an evening with friends somehow be deemed loathesome in the Islamic eye? Then it struck me, that an evening with friends is a veiled description for other activities. As vague and abstract the language; logic, social awareness and common sense can give accurately verifiable models of what's being alluded to here. From what that can be extrapolated,it's apparent that this is the attempt equate the Natural and Healthy ways of expression such as love, celebrating nature, with dysfunctional ones for the sake which you portray yourself as "victim" of some Islamic rendition of "catholic guilt" because it inhibits or censures it, as if it feigns legitimacy for why you resent Islaam..

The problem here however isn't Islaam, but rather whatever it is that motivates you to seek your dysfunctional indulgences; you want so badly to believe otherwise. And this Islaamic version of "catholic guilt" you experience isn't because Islaam imposes something that deprives happiness and contentment; it's this desperation to rationalize and deny what your condition. This would clearly create cognitive dissonance; the inner conflict you experience must be immense.

This whole theatrics of the verifiable vs. the unverifiable isn't what's at play here. In Islam , in so much as life and human social order and dealings millenia of anthropological foundations establish what defines and motivates it's principles and framework. Not the nebulous realm of lacking verfiability that you'd like to portray. What's at play is what you perceive as "having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verfiable evens in life"; is something manufactured and fabricated by the Capitalist Hegemonic Framework; and not something which has any intrinsic analog to life except in the form of some deviated instinct. Your "Suffocation" isn't because of Islaam; but much like I said before, the product of letting some artificial construct of progress define your worth in life and driving this discontent. If you want to break free, that's where to start.

Dear SX, to you every thing is a Capitalist Hegemonic Framework, I told you we in KP dont give two hoots about Capitalist Hegemonic Framework, or punjabic hegemonic or arabian / iranian or whoever elses model or framework.

We are taking of our own framework, what is in our head and what should be in our head, that will make our environment a little better than it is, not the environment in Newyork, not in mecca or palestine, in KP and the surrounding pashtoon areas, that is it. A very narrow area of focus.

Certain frameworks in the head of a pashtoon in KP are not aligned with this basic one step at a time approach to progress in this world, again not in janatul-firdos or other imaginary places like harry potter land, here in the time and space of KP/21st century.

Lastly I would just add one thing, that those growing up in secular countries with freedom of religion sometimes think that their great religious experience is the same for every one else.

As they say in pashto, the difference is
ookhrai and dhak sha,
An islamic ritual in Newyork is akin to 'ookhrai', the same experience in KP is 'dhak sha'. The two are fundamentally different. We just want our experiences to be that of 'ookhrai' too. For that we are willing to tolerate a little bit of baggage that comes with it, for 'dhak sha' is just not in the pashtoon DNA.

[Baygham]

The reason you didn't see any nomads is because Pakhtunkhwah is not located in the UK, Canada or the U.S. it's located on the fringe of South Central Asia. Nomads are all over the region and even have political representation in Afghanistan. Powanda/Kuchi are stilll, highly present, there are something like 3 Million Pashtun/Pakhtun Nomads in Afghanistan alone. That's nearly 1/3rd of Pashtuns there. Your lack of knowledge of this is because you're from a culture completely alien not only to Pashtoons but to the Middle East and Central Asia as well.

The point here wasn't to embrace this fascination for Nomadism; personally I think Nomads live the most ecologically sensible lifestyle, but I digress. What my point was is to demonstrate how these arbitrary lines you draw are totally false. While I do see parallels with Persian cultures and Pashtoons, for obvious linguistic connections, the dress and behavior of a Yemeni Arab, including dances and customs, moral ideals and simply way of life in general are more analagous with Pashtoons and vice versa than Pashtoons are with Persians. In fact very little of Pashtoon society has analog with Persian culture. Yemenis have their own type of "Pashtoonwali" based on similar lines. This isn't due to an Arab invasion or cultural subjugation; but just natural relationships with the ecological order. Granted there are ethic groups who share comparable degrees of affiliation, such as Kurds, Lurs, Balouch, Qashqai (possibly related to Ghilzai Pashtuns); but the point was to demonstrate is the Middle East and Central Asia have been so historically interwoven and has had such a high degree of cross cultural infiltration over centuries; that everyone from Marrakesch to Kashgar are bonded our brethren. That's just how it is.

Once again all that is being peddled here are these false dichotomies and shallow attempts at emotional anecdoting. What does the direction of the Ka'aba have to do with the simplicity of life of people? Surely people from Marrakesch to Kashgar have for the most part lived simple lives and still knew of the direction of the Ka'aba. It's not something that required extensive sophistication. IN fact Islaam was a people's movement from the get go, it was based on the principle of a simple life. This portrayal of "simple people" and other symbolic mnemonics here seems to be nothing other than an emotive ploy; but one which is extremely transparent. As if somehow it was to trying to feign legitimacy by saying "look see, even the simple people want imperial culture, they need the Handsome Blond Haired Blue eyed Hero depicted in Hollywood films to come and rescue them from the tyranny of their obscure and archaic religion and culture. This is an age old tactic of Orientalist mythology; and yet you accuse others of relying on fairy tales? You can't smokescreen this under the seemingly ambiguous rhetoric of change, we know what paradgm you're referriing to when you say "change"; a destructive, dysfunctional capitalist one. We all want a decent standard of living; but does decent standard of living mean having food and hygiene or a cyborg driven Sci Fi Technocratic wet dream that you seem to endorse? The distnctions need to be made here. Loosely veiled remarks like "relevance in a changing world"; are almost always said in context to cow towing mainstream Global Capitalist Framework; because let's be honest here any global disparity that exists today is intrinsically tied to displacement and disruption of people's natural ecological and economic relationships which has manufactured these issues; what else would they promote than than compliance to capitalist norms as a knife around people's throats to be alleviated. And hence why your gleeful comments celebrating Capitalist Hegemoni vis' a vis America/NATO etc, with your loins tingling over their reward for your services is evidence that Pashtoons were never your concern in the first place; serving the agenda of Northern Europeans is.

I think you fail to understand the revolution in Egypt; the Egyptians are rejecting the Capitalist Paradigm, not embracing it, and this is what is happening globally. No one wants technocracy, why would they? It violates all of our natural instincts and faculties. It's an unsustainable modus operandi which has only succeeded in creating a dysfunctional civilization. As someone who lives in the belly of the beast ; I don't see how your hallucination of Afghanistan or Pakhtunkhwah for that matter becoming a bastion for Ferangi enterprise will come to pass; if the ferangi order itself is falling apart from within, the likliness of what you want to come to pass, is slim to none. Sorry to break the news to you.

Environmentalism and Ecology has nothing to do with some Commercially friendly status quo endorsed conception of being "green" as you seem to think. Ecosystems are rarely ever "humanistic"; they're based on cycles which incorporate broader relationships than only that. However a lack of humanism is not tantamount to exploitation. Pashtoons were "green" as you seem to portray; but the concept of green here is not the domicile flaccid imagery you're steeped in. Pashtoons never destroyed or impaired the ecological relationships or environment of the planet, Pashtuns simply embroiled in the world with rival forces the way which was normal for most of our Earth's geological history; no ecological balances were disrupted. That's what disntinguishes the neocolonial approach from Islam or the pashtoon one. and why the later have legitimacy and the prior doesn't.

Were these" simple people" ...whispering voices in your head by any chances? I believe that might be where your error lies.

Dear SX you have a preconceived notion to which your world must conform. Islam is divine and Allah/Islam is absolute truth.

There is nothing wrong with that assumption, my Dad had similar views. The problem lies in what happens next. Now you must conform reality to fit this paradigm. And there you lose all validity. Any sensory perception not fitting the paradigm is given a negative mark, so as to maintain the delusion. Any small whiff of a favorable sign is amplified beyond recognition. In the end the brain filters out what it cannot absorb and heightens what it likes. And your delusions become your reality.

Dont waste your life in science, with that assumption above, you will never unearth any truth. You can only be a good technician, a good follower of flowcharts, original thinker you will never be.

Original thoughts come on clear canvas, not one painted with a scene. Your canvas is not clean.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Dear SX, to you every thing is a Capitalist Hegemonic Framework, I told you we in KP dont give two hoots about Capitalist Hegemonic Framework, or punjabic hegemonic or arabian / iranian or whoever elses model or framework.

We are taking of our own framework, what is in our head and what should be in our head, that will make our environment a little better than it is, not the environment in Newyork, not in mecca or palestine, in KP and the surrounding pashtoon areas, that is it. A very narrow area of focus.

Certain frameworks in the head of a pashtoon in KP are not aligned with this basic one step at a time approach to progress in this world, again not in janatul-firdos or other imaginary places like harry potter land, here in the time and space of KP/21st century.

Lastly I would just add one thing, that those growing up in secular countries with freedom of religion sometimes think that their great religious experience is the same for every one else.

As they say in pashto, the difference is
ookhrai and dhak sha,
An islamic ritual in Newyork is akin to 'ookhrai', the same experience in KP is 'dhak sha'. The two are fundamentally different. We just want our experiences to be that of 'ookhrai' too. For that we are willing to tolerate a little bit of baggage that comes with it, for 'dhak sha' is just not in the pashtoon DNA.

The problem is the lense by which you analyze "okhraai" and "Dhak Sha" are wholly defined by Capitalist Hegemonistic Variables; even your understandings of things being "Arab" or "Iranian" are otherwise are products their orientalist arguments which stemmed from their Imperial ventures. No matter how hard you try to represent yourself as some unofficial spokesperson of Pakhtunkhwah and act as if you speak on the ground level; this is the basis for your paradigm. So to claim that you "don't care about their hegemony", either indicates you're so horribly brainwashed and mentally enslaved that you cannot even recognize the nature and relationships which gave birth to your ideological views, or that you're merely being deceitful and are intentionally disingenuous. Since you seem to emulate the typical characteristics of an inferiority complex driven Easterner; something very common in the post-colonial/neo-colonial era due with this need to cope with subservience to the Imperial Paradigm, I will presume that the former.

It's become a standard cliche' to argue off some tangential claim that those raised in Capitalist Societies and yet retain value for their hereditary and religious identity/value system, speak from a position of convenience and therefore their vision is naive and lacks credibility. Firstly even if that is true, the rules of Logic indicate that that does not discredit their position. Secondly; it ignores the details of migration and what motivate it and in turn make the errorneous conclusions that Muslims or any other generally Non-Northern European stock people in European-based/Capitalist/Secularist societies disparage it out of petty anger, and not a deeper assessment beyond surface level variables . Such a shallow assessment of things too is a product of Capitalist Models of Perception and this applies for issues of religious experience and ideology as well. For many people's values, ideas and religious is rooted emotive inpulses, for others it's intellectual.

Although you pretend to have hold on a rational and logical framework for why you embrace a technocratic paradigm of globalized world economic and scientific progress, your motivations for it are emotional and driven by anxiety. While you view my defense of Islaam and it's values and it's merit as based on emotional attachment to antiquated views; in actuality are derived from intellectual analysis, a comparison of evidence and the fortitude to address problems accurately. However, much like you seem to project on me; this assesment is based on be ordained biases by which anything outside of that lense you don't account as it would be cognitive dissonance to your culturally enslaved sense of reality.

Hence we have Islam being equated to standard Capitalist manufactured icons and symbols of Harry Potter and some absurd notions of what constitutes the drives hardwired within Pashtoon DNA; whether this or that is hardwired into pashtoon DNA isn't the matter however, the fact your "ookhraai" is nothing more than the result of a Capitalist imposed inferiority complex is.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Dear SX you have a preconceived notion to which your world must conform. Islam is divine and Allah/Islam is absolute truth.

There is nothing wrong with that assumption, my Dad had similar views. The problem lies in what happens next. Now you must conform reality to fit this paradigm. And there you lose all validity. Any sensory perception not fitting the paradigm is given a negative mark, so as to maintain the delusion. Any small whiff of a favorable sign is amplified beyond recognition. In the end the brain filters out what it cannot absorb and heightens what it likes. And your delusions become your reality.

Dont waste your life in science, with that assumption above, you will never unearth any truth. You can only be a good technician, a good follower of flowcharts, original thinker you will never be.

Original thoughts come on clear canvas, not one painted with a scene. Your canvas is not clean.

If my canvas is not clean then your canvas would be tantamount to a toxic waste site; on such a stage nothing meritable will ever result from it. It wouldn't merely be trying to paint upon an already existing scene, it would be like using a broken brush on an eroded surface.

If what you're saying was true; I'd advocate Talibani style Islaam, or Wahhabism or Deobandism, things which discourage any intellectual or cognitive activity both within a scope dealing with technical matters of religious and outside of it. I would have little to no regard for any other reality outside of it, nor would I try to measure it's relevance, accuracy or validity with anything, why would I? It would be true because I think it is, or rather was told it is. However, this isn't the case. And my motives for being Muslim are much more nuanced and based on my own intellectual convincing than you would give credit to.


Your assessment of my scientific competence is peculiar and absurd given that in nearly every response; you use the typical Emotionalized rants, false appeals and fail compose a Logically Consistent argument. Just irrelevant ploys in and out. It's hard to imagine how someone who's such a strong advocate of rational and scientific assessment of reality make such errors persistently, but I can answer that puzzle easily.

The question of religion over science is not a question of competing ideas ; it's a question of epistemology. Science is an apparatus. not a philosophy (although there is a philosophy regarding the relevance of that apparatus, it's not the same as science itself). That apparatus has certain range of scope with which it can ascertain information, usually things which can be quantifiably observed. Often times it's debated whether certain topics of physics are actually science or philosophy because they do not deal with actual real-world/real-time variables. However, this is where we get into an area of wow we understand something to be True or false and what makes The Truth ....the Truth. And hence the conclusion that one will not "unearth" any truth because they believe in Islaam is an internally self defeating one. For if we understand the process of rationality and logic. Truth is not simply confined to empirical conditions; that would be like assuming that anything True is only things we can derive, and thus subject to our acknowledgement. Truth deals with existences and degrees of existence, and thereby how we determine what exists and what does not? Truth is addressing the attributes of existence and such a thing is too vast for empirical means to encompass; Science is not merely empirical truths, those truths are local truths subsets and derivatives of grander truths, but also the vast aspects of Existence, things which are not always discernable in limited corners of space-time; but holistic inductive and deductive relations. Truth is not just held in a laboratory but in Nature itself. It is that fact where there's an interface of Religion and science, as both ultimately with the same issues, what is reality?

What you advocate isn't science or fact but a type of philosophy that facts are only constrained to moderated variables, things which have limited scope of relevance to a holistic understanding of reality.

It's almost as if that this perception of me advocating Islaam and how you view Islaam's standards and concepts and what you feel regarding them is really based on your own preordained standards; and hence your errorneous conclusions of both my understanding of Islaam and Science and Islaam and Science itself. For me there's no competition with Islaam and Science, but rather Islaam and certain views regarding the application of science. Thus there was never any situation of disregarding any reality in science that didn't fit with Islaam, or vice versa; this was merely your projection; one based on your own set of false unverified assumptions.


and getting back to your analogy of the Canvas, it's hence you who are projecting your own prewritten canvas on others, not the other way around.

In short you're not wrong simply because Islaam says so; I'm saying you're wrong because reality says so, and likewise reality says Islaam is right.

[Baygham]

If my canvas is not clean then your canvas would be tantamount to a toxic waste site; on such a stage nothing meritable will ever result from it. It wouldn't merely be trying to paint upon an already existing scene, it would be like using a broken brush on an eroded surface.

If what you're saying was true; I'd advocate Talibani style Islaam, or Wahhabism or Deobandism, things which discourage any intellectual or cognitive activity both within a scope dealing with technical matters of religious and outside of it. I would have little to no regard for any other reality outside of it, nor would I try to measure it's relevance, accuracy or validity with anything, why would I? It would be true because I think it is, or rather was told it is. However, this isn't the case. And my motives for being Muslim are much more nuanced and based on my own intellectual convincing than you would give credit to.


Your assessment of my scientific competence is peculiar and absurd given that in nearly every response; you use the typical Emotionalized rants, false appeals and fail compose a Logically Consistent argument. Just irrelevant ploys in and out. It's hard to imagine how someone who's such a strong advocate of rational and scientific assessment of reality make such errors persistently, but I can answer that puzzle easily.

The question of religion over science is not a question of competing ideas ; it's a question of epistemology. Science is an apparatus. not a philosophy (although there is a philosophy regarding the relevance of that apparatus, it's not the same as science itself). That apparatus has certain range of scope with which it can ascertain information, usually things which can be quantifiably observed. Often times it's debated whether certain topics of physics are actually science or philosophy because they do not deal with actual real-world/real-time variables. However, this is where we get into an area of wow we understand something to be True or false and what makes The Truth ....the Truth. And hence the conclusion that one will not "unearth" any truth because they believe in Islaam is an internally self defeating one. For if we understand the process of rationality and logic. Truth is not simply confined to empirical conditions; that would be like assuming that anything True is only things we can derive, and thus subject to our acknowledgement. Truth deals with existences and degrees of existence, and thereby how we determine what exists and what does not? Truth is addressing the attributes of existence and such a thing is too vast for empirical means to encompass; Science is not merely empirical truths, those truths are local truths subsets and derivatives of grander truths, but also the vast aspects of Existence, things which are not always discernable in limited corners of space-time; but holistic inductive and deductive relations. Truth is not just held in a laboratory but in Nature itself. It is that fact where there's an interface of Religion and science, as both ultimately with the same issues, what is reality?

What you advocate isn't science or fact but a type of philosophy that facts are only constrained to moderated variables, things which have limited scope of relevance to a holistic understanding of reality.

It's almost as if that this perception of me advocating Islaam and how you view Islaam's standards and concepts and what you feel regarding them is really based on your own preordained standards; and hence your errorneous conclusions of both my understanding of Islaam and Science and Islaam and Science itself. For me there's no competition with Islaam and Science, but rather Islaam and certain views regarding the application of science. Thus there was never any situation of disregarding any reality in science that didn't fit with Islaam, or vice versa; this was merely your projection; one based on your own set of false unverified assumptions.


and getting back to your analogy of the Canvas, it's hence you who are projecting your own prewritten canvas on others, not the other way around.

In short you're not wrong simply because Islaam says so; I'm saying you're wrong because reality says so, and likewise reality says Islaam is right.

The funny thing is SX, that your own interpretation of Islam is a western construct. Its a unique framework that you individually possess, an amalgamation of your western education and emotional need for religion to fill the voids in that understanding. This unique Islam has no value for another pashtoon. To elaborate further, lets design an experiment.

Write down ten basic tenets of this individualized islam and post them here, and we will ask the faithful to comment on them. If by the end of this exercise you are not labeled Kafir by half, I will accept you as 'ghous ul azam'. LOL. Your Islam is just that, yours, it is to soothe your nerves, not provide guidance for the pashtoons on how to live in 21st century as equal and honorable global partners.

Additionally, I am really amused by constant reference to an inferiority complex. Again something common to colonial subjects I guess, but sir, pashtoons by and large were a well documented exception to this identity crises and inferiority complex. Secondly the new generation born way after any colonial interaction has no memory of such. Now if you personally have some colonial anguish (you must be pretty old for that) or some guilt with being from a family of house negros, than that may be so, no such qualms here.

I grew up in PK and have been treated with utmost respect in USA. I dont know of other countries (i havent lived there) so honestly I really cant relate to what you are talking about. I have seen a lot of inferiority complex viz a viz white skin/ gora-kala/ english good accent vs. with a thick accent and such in a lot of indian/pakistani, the need to distinguish them selves from say punjabi sikhs or such with more and more arabized names and so on. But by large I have not seen this behavior that much prevalent in pashtoons. Some do have Khan and non khan or raees, non-raees complexes, again wont know much about that as i don't have any pashtoon pedigree problems.

[Toramana]

Bayghama pa khair...Bacha pa Sawabai kai musam sanga woo? Bailai tha pa kai tlalai wai kana?

Actually, SX is an Arab nationlist. Arabs now-a-days are writhing with rage due to the humuliation they have suffered at the hands of Isreal ... SX has demonstrated the same pathological signs that characterise Arabs....

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Things have changed, look at eygpt. Its 5000+ years history they have never had non authoritarian rule. And what is the demand now in the recent uprising.

Muhammad himself was just one person. When he stood against prevailing pagan doctrines of millenia. So what if the pashtoons were savages once, pashtoons have fought for sikhs, hindus, pagans, iranians, mughals, russians, arabs, punjabis, english, and now americans. Even your name sake abdali was once a ghilzai prisoner and would have died in the gallows if not for persian conquest. Our khushal khan himself was a paid vassal of mughals whom latter turned his own son against him.

so now we take money from this and that, nothing has changed except the world.

The pashtoons are a weak, small but significant group of people in todays world, The world is not going to allow them to maintain there loot and plunder ways of past. You cannot raid india or persia now. Now you work like a dog just like the chinese and indians and compete in global arena, one step at a time.

This is a time to change our ways not pour more gasoline on ourselves so we combust faster.

And having lived amongst the religion wheelers and dealers in pakhtunkhwa, I know how courageous they are and who will sell for what. Essentially the majority have no moral basis of existence (including the ANP leadership). Those that cherish religion truly don't mix it with worldly gains and are innocent bystanders and equally exploited. A very small but alive subset, want a change, away from the use of religion fear mongering, anti western, anti indian bull crap. They had not seen an american in swabi or swat, yet they are exploited worse than those living in jalalabad.

Baygham wrorre,

Lets start over. Tell me a little about yourself as much as you feel comfortable with. So you were born in KP. What region do you hail from? Which Kabayl? I have many friends from Khybar Med now. Did you study there or another Pakistani institute? Are you in residency or fellowship or are you in the field as an attending currently? You may be beyond me at this point, but just know if you ever think that there is anything I can do to help you send me a line. We may be ideologically distant, but I still consider you amongst my brethren and may also end up coming to you for guidance should the need arise.

However, I do want to address your points and will remain as frank and honest as I can:

1. The overwhelming majority of your arguments are anectodal and not evidence based. So when you accuse SXEdge of being unscientific... I think its actually you that suffers from this malady as emotion drives most of your blog posts. So for example you say: Pashtoons take money from others and cite a few prime examples of people that did so and then you supplement this with some absurd statement that we ride the loot train via plunder and have to stop. As a physician and as a scientist you come across as amateurish with these statements because you impose anectode onto the masses. Remember, anecdote based practice is not the stuff of evidence based practice. Heck, even local data can be skewed... for example certain anti hypertensive cocktails in blacks offer different results than those in whites and other races. If one were to live and train in an all black area and prescribe anti hypertensives based on this experience and then believe that what he was giving was applicable to everyone in the US, we would not be conducting evidence based practice.

Another example is your statement on nomadic pashtuns. Per my father in law, a yargu khel elder, his tribe up to his generation still tends lands between Bannu and Wana. It was only recently with military incursions that this age old practice of the Ahmadzai Wazirs is being challenged.

However, as I stated, you imposed anecdote from your personal experiences in the place of evidence.

For that matter, who is Ashraf Ghani? He is the tribal leader of a large segment of Kochiaan. Moreover, the Hazara complain that a large number of Taliban recruits derive from Durrani Kochiaan in the vale of Kandahar during the Spring/Summer campaigns.

Now, as one scientist to another, please provide counter evidence that kochi-ism is dead.

2. The need to throw our red herrings: So you generally throw out red herrings that are refutable and once again nonfactual when investigated or expanded upon. When there is fact, it is intermixed with, once again your anecdotal evidence devoid of the complex interpretations that any student of history or analytical thought out to furnish. Let me provide one example:

Regarding Ahmad Shah Abdali and his imprisonment by Shah Hussein Hotak.... you never finish the thought or tell the rest of the history. Ahmad Shah served Nadir Shah, a sunni that sought to reestablish sunni doctrine in Iran and also roll back the damage the shiah had done under the prior Iranian empires. So it was very easy for him to accomodate being a chieftan in Nadir's fighting force. Otherwise, Abdali and Ghilzai chafed under Shiah rule and Mir Wais was able to rouse enough anti Shiah sentiment to stage his rebellion.

Also the history of the Mughals in Pashtunistan is quiet illustrative. With the exception of a few Safi rebellions and some skirmishes of Khushal Khan plus some attacks on Aurengzaibs army done in that era, when you compare the Pashtun war against Mughal occupation versus the outright bloody rebellions the Afghans staged against the British, the Russians, and the Americans a common theme emerges.

That theme is that the Pashtuns fought a hell of a lot harder against nonMuslim invaders that attempted to impose their ideologies than did they their own Muslim brethren.

Your issue is that you deleted parts of history and glossed an interpretation convenient to yourself over it all.

3. Your view on religion: Once again you throw out red herrings in the millions and mix up cause and effect. So on your blog you devote much emotional ranting to how the Islamically minded devote their resources to the hereafter and cannot benefit the present. Yet there is not a shred of evidence to support that either A) such an approach hinders worldly success vs progress as you define it or B) you ignore actual quranic ayahs that exhort believes to strive with equal vigor for "allahuma rabanaa athinaa wa fid dunyaa"/this life and the hereafter.

Furthermore, in your example on rape and zinaa you ignore the classical discussions on how rape may very well fall under the quranic injunction that commands "women are not to be inherited against their will." Salafist interpretations are in and of themselves in argument of this complex matter.

You note the lack of regard for life amongst religionists and decry their lack of piety. However, why is it that Michael Scheuer has just released a biography detailing that Osama Bin Ladin for instance, lives up to piety par excellence? He provides a corpus of evidence to follow through on this.

So your general answer to why the mujahideen are not "pious" has been to mix up cause and effect, something that a simple Kandahar villager does not even do. In that Post article I gave you, the villager answers quiet pointedly that he understand each death the Taliban inflict is an answer to the fact that NATO troops are occupying Afghan land.

You also mix up the village mullah with an actual informed theologian. That is as dumb as if I were to mix up a Christian Theologian with a small town Baptist preacher.

Regarding your example of how KP Pashtuns that have not seen an American or an Indian. Once again, you take something complex and simplify it to cover up truth. How about that Wazir tribesmen that sees that soldier in his post in Forward Operating Base Shinwar? He appears to see that presence as threatening. For that matter, what about Cameron Munter's own statements that America shall intervene as it seems fit per the bill it foots to keep Pakistan afloat? So interference in the day to day life of a Swaabi or Swaati Pashtun is as complex as interference into the life of a denizen of any country on the border of a nation that it shares links with that is occupied.

So brother, leave behind your emotion and illogical ramblings and provide citations and evidence.

[Baygham]

Bayghama pa khair...Bacha pa Sawabai kai musam sanga woo? Bailai tha pa kai tlalai wai kana?

Actually, SX is an Arab nationlist. Arabs now-a-days are writhing with rage due to the humuliation they have suffered at the hands of Isreal ... SX has demonstrated the same pathological signs that characterise Arabs....

The damn fog, kept every thing pretty much shut down. You could hardly see 10 yards away. But it was lots of fun. Had a couple of days set aside to frolic with the arabs in dubai and that got squashed as well due to weather. Overall was fun. Nice to meet up with old gang.

This SX is some fifth generation god knows what breed (i see a little hubsh in there too), telling us how it is in KP, lol. And that we have inferiority complex. LOL.

BTW I am impressed by the Egyptians, finally some Arabs with spine, I thought they sold that Biatch some centuries ago. The hashimites in Jordan are a little uneasy as well. Cant see a happy ending though, that would take a head on top of the spine.

[Baygham]

Baygham wrorre,.....................

You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. This is an anonymous forum and here my name is Baygham. Some say I am a doctor, I never said that. I am from Swabi KP. Just visited the damn place. I have never set foot in kandahar or kabul, have friends and family that do business there and I do interact with them almost on daily basis. I have no political or economic aspirations in watan. Uncle sam kaka has been kind and I do OK in USA.

My impressions of pashtoo and pashtoons is many from KP, a little from Quetta which i have visited quite a few times, some friends from FATA and some visits there, mainly khyber. Nothing else.

Nomads I have seen I must confess, here and there, I dont think anyone in the next 100 years will ask them for what to do in PK. They have no role to play in the making of any sort of social or political movement in KP. Hence there irrelevance. I am not sure if they wield more power in afghanistan, may be they do, God bless you guys then, if they do. We are a little far away from having a 'koochi' sardar as our boss.

More pashtoons are killed by fellow pashtoons in pakhtunkhwa than are killed by americans. I dont have absolute statistics but can safely say that if we count all the murders in KP that occur daily, from family clashes, domestic violence, tribal friction, suicide bombing, taliban killing and vise versa, the total is probably a lot more than NATA killing of afghans on a daily basis.
since you like facts, here is one calculated murder rate in peshawar (22.9/100,000/ year)http://www.ayubmed.edu.pk/JAMC/PAST/...ar%20MArri.pdf
extrapolate to the whole KP/FATA the rate comes to 4400-5500/ year. The study was in 2002, a year of no talib voilence as MMA was in power, now you can imagine what it is.
compared to civilian deaths by NATO is less than a few hundred http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...zoomed-picture


We have way bigger problems than who is pumping karzai and dha cha pa moor sook ****** dhi. Our culture is in decay, economic activity is at a stand still, social order is disintegrating, and nobody knows what to do.

Ka pa sijdoo dha sizoona sameeday noo thar hussa ba 'mars' tha las zalla thalee oo.