Toramana appreciation thread

[Baygham]

Well I guess thats a fair question, but you have to allow for a fair answer. The problem is that historically, exploitation follows attempts at harnassing what those corporate interests want in the third world. Japan appears to be an exception to the rule and its case study is one that I need to read up on (it had no riches to exploit though). However, I refer you to the issues in Nigeria:

"Oilmen looking for an alternative to the politically troubled oil fields of the Middle East think they see one beneath the waters off West Africa. The bad news is that the arc of nations stretching along the shore of the Gulf of Guinea from the Ivory Coast to Angola looks as politically testing as Arabian ones," Paul Maidment wrote March 10, 2003, in Forbes.

"the BBC reported that MEND was fighting for "total control" of the Niger Delta's oil wealth, saying local people had not gained from the riches under the ground and the region's creeks and swamps."[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...he_Niger_Delta

So I think at times what you are seeing when you read our posts is that you bunch us together and assume that this has even 10% to do with religion. Even amongst ourselves, Alchemist, SXEdge, and I have divergent views.

Much of my motivation comes from historical precedent. In fact, if you read a lot of what I wrote, my understanding of the Quran and sunnah is cursory and based on self study. But as I noted, you assign a God motivation to each of my thought processes that just doesnt exist. My education and knowledge of history, of Tecumseh the Brave, of Wallace and Bruce, of Guevara, or our own revolution, of Simon Bolivar... these are my reference points as much as my faith.

In fact, here is an interesting story to show you that religion only plays a part of the role in this conflict, some of it is personal, some of it is has to do with resources, and a bunch of it has to do with the fact that Pashtuns view land as being a sacred commodity. Go try to buy land in Qandahar... they ask you where your family is from, what clan you derive from, where your father is buried etc.:

http://freedomsyndicate.com/fair0000/times0045.html

Japan had amassed resources (most still unaccounted and reportedly distributed among the conquerors what some now call Old money if you count opium trade money to china and the clipper ships with it) from its torching of large swathes of asia prior to the war. Just looting eastern china could fill a few floors of the federal reserve in New york. Now I do understand that Yama****a's gold may be a mythical concoction, but Japan still pays a lot of the costs of a gringo force in asia, is that not more than any reported treasure chest. Who do you think is building new Kabul city, are the japenese so generous, its uncle sam chacha's guiding hand.

BTW the known mineral wealth in afghanistan (mostly pashtoon areas) over a trillion dollars. Peera we know what is at stake, everyone knows its about resources here in this world, everyone except the kamakal pashtoon masses. Forever exploited by a call to honor, almost always by outsiders at our expense and their profit. How very stupid.

[ScimitarXEdge]

This is your impression SX, things on the ground are different, I am privy to the best economical reports of the area, long before americans came there. Americans are not in pakhtoon land to help us become better human beings. They have their internal reasons with global geopolitical repurcussions. Pashtoons are not part of that debate, our dicisions are being done for us by Tajiks and punjabies because we dont talk to the 600 pounds gorilla in the room, we have the gazillion pound God on our side. Such rubbish makes us one of the most exploited nation in the world. All I wish for is a direct channel with the 600 pound gorilla so we can soothe its desire for what ever and go back to growing and selling chewing tobacco (naswar). since this is a big service for the 600 hundred pound gorilla, we may be able to emulate what happened in South korea or war ravaged germany and japan. The gorilla is here, why not turn our fate, its just that simple, why let a million corporations and outsiders profit from our misery, why not aim for some progress ourselves, under the circumstances.

And I dont understand why you got so irked by my "evening with friends", you know we are not even allowed to gather peacefully without having 10 guards on the look out for suicide children pumped up by zeolots for outsiders to shun us from a debate. I am not talking about a night out with dancing girls and wiskey, I am talking about a private gathering to discuss our fate.

Well my supposition wasn't to deny that the Pakistani establishment (I won't say Punjabis, because poor rural Punjabis rarely see the benefits of their wealthier Elite); didn't somehow have it rigged in their benefit and Pashtunkhwah's detriment. What I am saying is that the American involvement galvanized it and are there to make sure that the institution which is a vehicle for it remains galvanized.

The Pakistani establishment however is a product of the British/Imperial enterprise, of which United States has been a long ally and byproduct of, despite the whole revolutionary drama of 1776. So while we may argue that America was not the culprit, their Capitalist agenda is; and Britain and America are merely two wings of the same flying demonic beast that operates it.


If I misinterpreted your "evening with friends" remark then I retract my statement; you have to understand in the North American context, an "evening with friends" has a different connotation. With your smirking commentary about American intrusion I wasn't sure if that was what you were referring to .

Your assessment in my understanding is a bit misdirected, maybe even misguided; you believe that Tajiks and Punjabis are somehow a benefitting populace at our expense and are in collaboration with the "600 lbs Gorilla" and since we aren't we can't get a piece of that pie. We're not a Germany, a Japan or a South Korea. However, that's not the case, Pakistan is a vestige of colonial rule; so is modern India and most current Arab States. It wasn't a "negotiation" with the 600 lbs gorilla that brought them; but rather the strategic and deliberate organization of the games pieces, not by an 800 lbs gorilla but a many headed hydra. They raise one group and pit them against the other, then when that other group is expended they pit group B against group A. That's what happened with Kurds and Arabs in Iraq. Examine Pakistan, the level of U.S. support and intervention; especially during Pakistani atrocities in Bangladesh. Pakistan was deemed an ideal ally, yet did they ever become a Japan or Germany? No, because the purpose of each serves a different role. The Agenda for the Middle East and Central Asia is different than the agenda for East Asia and Europe. Germany share important economic ties that they need to maintain their order, Japan is their outpost in the pacific and market for consuming their junk. There is no hope of a better tomorrow here, regardless of how things turn out.

So why cow tow this 7 headed Hydra posing as a Gorilla?

[Baygham]

Well my supposition wasn't to deny that the Pakistani establishment (I won't say Punjabis, because poor rural Punjabis rarely see the benefits of their wealthier Elite); didn't somehow have it rigged in their benefit and Pashtunkhwah's detriment. What I am saying is that the American involvement galvanized it and are there to make sure that the institution which is a vehicle for it remains galvanized.

The Pakistani establishment however is a product of the British/Imperial enterprise, of which United States has been a long ally and byproduct of, despite the whole revolutionary drama of 1776. So while we may argue that America was not the culprit, their Capitalist agenda is; and Britain and America are merely two wings of the same flying demonic beast that operates it.


If I misinterpreted your "evening with friends" remark then I retract my statement; you have to understand in the North American context, an "evening with friends" has a different connotation. With your smirking commentary about American intrusion I wasn't sure if that was what you were referring to .

Your assessment in my understanding is a bit misdirected, maybe even misguided; you believe that Tajiks and Punjabis are somehow a benefitting populace at our expense and are in collaboration with the "600 lbs Gorilla" and since we aren't we can't get a piece of that pie. We're not a Germany, a Japan or a South Korea. However, that's not the case, Pakistan is a vestige of colonial rule; so is modern India and most current Arab States. It wasn't a "negotiation" with the 600 lbs gorilla that brought them; but rather the strategic and deliberate organization of the games pieces, not by an 800 lbs gorilla but a many headed hydra. They raise one group and pit them against the other, then when that other group is expended they pit group B against group A. That's what happened with Kurds and Arabs in Iraq. Examine Pakistan, the level of U.S. support and intervention; especially during Pakistani atrocities in Bangladesh. Pakistan was deemed an ideal ally, yet did they ever become a Japan or Germany? No, because the purpose of each serves a different role. The Agenda for the Middle East and Central Asia is different than the agenda for East Asia and Europe. Germany share important economic ties that they need to maintain their order, Japan is their outpost in the pacific and market for consuming their junk. There is no hope of a better tomorrow here, regardless of how things turn out.

So why cow tow this 7 headed Hydra posing as a Gorilla?

SX, it doesnt really make a difference if it is a hydra or a gorilla, if it is 7 headed or two, if it started eating us 10 years ago or a 100. It is what it is and is as real as the ozone layer, global warming, water scarcity, it is just another misfortune. We have to see it just as such. by going out every day and killing each other wont stop holes in the ozone layer or global warming. But organizing ourselves, modifying our behaviour like say better water management will get us through a whole lot better.

I am not an advocate of any imperialism including pashtoon. What we do with minorities is also atrocious (eg tur kafar, if you followed the discussion above). America will do what ever it wishes, we have to do what we need to. Right now in my humble opinion, fighting with america and beating ourselves publicaly and shouting america tyrant america tyrant is helping other stake holders and not us.

BTW your point about the commoner is right, the commoner punjabi is actually more subjugated than a KP pakhtun and yes we do have a lot of ethnic pashtoons in the establishment.

Such complex situations require dynamic solutions, on the go, Solution A today, discarded tomorrow, go to B. Static ideologies, imported from outside and forced through the barrel of a gun by other stake holders are not a solution.

[ScimitarXEdge]

SX, it doesnt really make a difference if it is a hydra or a gorilla, if it is 7 headed or two, if it started eating us 10 years ago or a 100. It is what it is and is as real as the ozone layer, global warming, water scarcity, it is just another misfortune. We have to see it just as such. by going out every day and killing each other wont stop holes in the ozone layer or global warming. But organizing ourselves, modifying our behaviour like say better water management will get us through a whole lot better.

I am not an advocate of any imperialism including pashtoon. What we do with minorities is also atrocious (eg tur kafar, if you followed the discussion above). America will do what ever it wishes, we have to do what we need to. Right now in my humble opinion, fighting with america and beating ourselves publicaly and shouting america tyrant america tyrant is helping other stake holders and not us.

BTW your point about the commoner is right, the commoner punjabi is actually more subjugated than a KP pakhtun and yes we do have a lot of ethnic pashtoons in the establishment.

Such complex situations require dynamic solutions, on the go, Solution A today, discarded tomorrow, go to B. Static ideologies, imported from outside and forced through the barrel of a gun by other stake holders are not a solution.

Your assessment of why and what and how it's doing things is wrong; it's not benefitting one state or another, it's merely using everyone as pawns. Once it's through with a pawn it just discards it and moves on to the next. Iraq is a perfect example. These are classical divide and rule tactics.

The analogy of global warming and ozone layer depletion is as paradoxical as it is inaccurate. Paradoxical because it's that institution of industrial capitalist enterprise which engendered the situation and inaccurate in the sense that such realities are only consequential if we allow them to be. Letting them dominate you and exploit you is not the solution for exploitation by their stooges.

Iraq in the 70's and 80's as a mantle of the Modern Middle East; then it went to pieces and it's in a fragmented condition. The nation of Iraq itself was carved out by the British, and in turn this fragmentation As for fighting with America, it's not America we are fighting, America is merely vessel; what we're fighting is bigger than the smokescreen of Nation-States; it's that nation state thinking that bogs us down and keeps us diverted from core matters and addressing problems. You and I agree on one thing that we must do what we need to do; but what we disagree on is what it is we need to do. We don't need to cow tow to this Gorilla/Hydra/Demon; we need to liberate ourselves from it. I don't see how your plan will liberate, it will only maintain our state of constant subservience. and that is why I address it as a colonized mentality.

[Baygham]

Your assessment of why and what and how it's doing things is wrong; it's not benefitting one state or another, it's merely using everyone as pawns. Once it's through with a pawn it just discards it and moves on to the next. Iraq is a perfect example. These are classical divide and rule tactics.

The analogy of global warming and ozone layer depletion is as paradoxical as it is inaccurate. Paradoxical because it's that institution of industrial capitalist enterprise which engendered the situation and inaccurate in the sense that such realities are only consequential if we allow them to be. Letting them dominate you and exploit you is not the solution for exploitation by their stooges.

Iraq in the 70's and 80's as a mantle of the Modern Middle East; then it went to pieces and it's in a fragmented condition. The nation of Iraq itself was carved out by the British, and in turn this fragmentation As for fighting with America, it's not America we are fighting, America is merely vessel; what we're fighting is bigger than the smokescreen of Nation-States; it's that nation state thinking that bogs us down and keeps us diverted from core matters and addressing problems. You and I agree on one thing that we must do what we need to do; but what we disagree on is what it is we need to do. We don't need to cow tow to this Gorilla/Hydra/Demon; we need to liberate ourselves from it. I don't see how your plan will liberate, it will only maintain our state of constant subservience. and that is why I address it as a colonized mentality.

Its easy to condemn from the comforts of western luxury, I do it all the time. Was Gandhi's non voilent movement a product of colonized mentality was bacha khan a coward. Is it an eternal doctrine, should the Jews have adopted it in Germany and in Isreal. The answer is no.

To you in New York or London, going after the head of the hydra may be feasible, you do so, but for the millions dying sandwiched between a rock and a hard place, it is not feasible. Sometimes you amputate a limb to spare the whole. Sometimes the whole takes a chance and keeps a limb. Churchill pulled the trigger or Bush did or they did it with Allahs consent or without Allah, is irrelevant. We should adopt the most appropriate strategy for the right time and space. What that may be will change moment to moment. Shouting for arabian honor, with bare feet and sunken bellies is just plain foolish, like a famous pashtoon who years ago, wrapped his patoo (a warm wrap around/ a shawl) and put it in the nozzle of a British cannon, well you know what happened to him. Advocating we all do the same will only prolong the raj and its local cronies. Sometimes Gandhi making salt in defiance, on a desolate beach, is mush more powerful.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Its easy to condemn from the comforts of western luxury, I do it all the time. Was Gandhi's non voilent movement a product of colonized mentality was bacha khan a coward. Is it an eternal doctrine, should the Jews have adopted it in Germany and in Isreal. The answer is no.

To you in New York or London, going after the head of the hydra may be feasible, you do so, but for the millions dying sandwiched between a rock and a hard place, it is not feasible. Sometimes you amputate a limb to spare the whole. Sometimes the whole takes a chance and keeps a limb. Churchill pulled the trigger or Bush did or they did it with Allahs consent or without Allah, is irrelevant. We should adopt the most appropriate strategy for the right time and space. What that may be will change moment to moment. Shouting for arabian honor, with bare feet and sunken bellies is just plain foolish, like a famous pashtoon who years ago, wrapped his patoo (a warm wrap around/ a shawl) and put it in the nozzle of a British cannon, well you know what happened to him. Advocating we all do the same will only prolong the raj and its local cronies. Sometimes Gandhi making salt in defiance, on a desolate beach, is mush more powerful.

Its much more complex and the history of Indian revolution from british rule requires more thought, because Ghandi's movement was going on side by side with Muhammad Jauhaar's militant movement. This is very similar to how Malcom X's movement was going on side by side with Martin Luther King's movement. Back in engineering school I had a good, but poor friend from Detroit that grew up near where Ben Carson grew up. His name was John and I asked John why the establishment, like Spike Lee notes in his timeless classic on Malcolm X, wants him and his people to forget Malcom X. John avoids politics, but remains ever astute and said, "BA, they want their docile n@#$#Q@rs." He went on to note that informed blacks place a lot of emphasis on how Malcom's threats of violent revolution played a major role in the directors of society (i.e. the elites) realizing that they had to relent in order to maintain stability and save face about claiming America was the pluralistic society that it claims. Moreover, Bacha Khan's movement was going along side by side with Taurangzai and Faqir e Ipi's militant revolts as well as Mullah Powindah's revolt.

Finally I give you quote from Che Guevara:

"A revolution without guns? It will never work."

[faye]

astute hackers might be better armory, in this day and age.

[Alchemist]

Its much more complex and the history of Indian revolution from british rule requires more thought, because Ghandi's movement was going on side by side with Muhammad Jauhaar's militant movement. This is very similar to how Malcom X's movement was going on side by side with Martin Luther King's movement. Back in engineering school I had a good, but poor friend from Detroit that grew up near where Ben Carson grew up. His name was John and I asked John why the establishment, like Spike Lee notes in his timeless classic on Malcolm X, wants him and his people to forget Malcom X. John avoids politics, but remains ever astute and said, "BA, they want their docile n@#$#Q@rs." He went on to note that informed blacks place a lot of emphasis on how Malcom's threats of violent revolution played a major role in the directors of society (i.e. the elites) realizing that they had to relent in order to maintain stability and save face about claiming America was the pluralistic society that it claims. Moreover, Bacha Khan's movement was going along side by side with Taurangzai and Faqir e Ipi's militant revolts as well as Mullah Powindah's revolt.

Finally I give you quote from Che Guevara:

"A revolution without guns? It will never work."

The recent Egyptian revolution was by means a "peaceful" one.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The recent Egyptian revolution was by means a "peaceful" one.

'Tis not complete. the apex of power rests in Omar Suleiman and Tantawai's hands now. Mubarak was 80 or so and likely to croack soon enough. Thanks to Assange, we now know that Suleiman was the preferred choice for imperial/israeli interests in terms of a transition. For the revolution to complete itself the people must truly erect a government that reflects the will of the people. Otherwise, what has happened is similar to the revolt that I read about recently where Ayuub Khan across the border from us was overthrown via a "revolution" only to be replaced with Zul Fikaar Bhutto or more recently, Musharraf with Zardari.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

- Mullah Thomas Jeffersonzai Baba

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The recent Egyptian revolution was by means a "peaceful" one.

That being said, the people deserve out our sympathies. However, as an American I shall do exactly as John Quincy Adams told us to do and:

"Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."
John Quincy Adams

Therefore, I shall stake a consistent stance on this and note that I wish the Egyptians well and my prayers are with them, but as an American, I urge that not a single dollar nor a single American life ought to be spent to secure Egypt's freedom. To balance, this not a single dollar or life ough to go towards their military regime or ought to have gone there in the first place. The Egyptians have to earn the right of a nation state to exist and flourish and they appear to be doing that right now. We have the right to generally stay silent and out of their affairs.

As a Muslim American the best thing I can do for my people around the world is encourage noninterventionalism. This allows an intellectual reconciliation of my Islamic mindset and the oath I took as an American doctor to save and not destroy life; as I yearn for my fellow religion men and women to flourish but I also yearn to protect the lives and liberties of Americans here.

This reconciliation is found in the ayaahs that urge Muslims to sue for peace should the aggressor (in this case the US and the Western imperial powers) sue for peace. These ayaahs meet John Quincy Adam's and Washington's exhortations at a healthy middle ground. If, as an American Muslim I can help this nation sue for peace than a balance can be reached between these adopted people and the traditional Muslim lands.

More likely the cycle of empire shall continue as empires have risen and fallen before this one. So my ideals are tempered with pragmatism.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Its easy to condemn from the comforts of western luxury, I do it all the time. Was Gandhi's non voilent movement a product of colonized mentality was bacha khan a coward. Is it an eternal doctrine, should the Jews have adopted it in Germany and in Isreal. The answer is no.

To you in New York or London, going after the head of the hydra may be feasible, you do so, but for the millions dying sandwiched between a rock and a hard place, it is not feasible. Sometimes you amputate a limb to spare the whole. Sometimes the whole takes a chance and keeps a limb. Churchill pulled the trigger or Bush did or they did it with Allahs consent or without Allah, is irrelevant. We should adopt the most appropriate strategy for the right time and space. What that may be will change moment to moment. Shouting for arabian honor, with bare feet and sunken bellies is just plain foolish, like a famous pashtoon who years ago, wrapped his patoo (a warm wrap around/ a shawl) and put it in the nozzle of a British cannon, well you know what happened to him. Advocating we all do the same will only prolong the raj and its local cronies. Sometimes Gandhi making salt in defiance, on a desolate beach, is mush more powerful.

The response you're giving is called Circumstantial Ad-Hominem. It's true that I was born and raised in the U.S, but that's not the essence of our discussion. But don't you see? Living in the so called "Western Luxury" is exactly what makes our position all the more credible. We have an intimate familiarity with it's workings, it's faults, it's merits it's vulnerabilities. We're not beguiled by the illusion of this mountain of Gold with streets lined with pearls as many "over there" are lead to believe (I'm making a hyperbole on purpose by the way). We know what makes the culture what it is and understand what it represents and the cost of subscribing to it's pathology of pacification and intoxication. You seem to have some misgivings about my position;my ambitions are not local,they're not about Arabian Honor, Pashtun Honor, Tajik Honor, Ferangi Honor or any ready-made rhetoric being used here. I'm not fighting the West, nor am I defending the East. I'm up against a georaphically amorphous institution,although historically rooted in Western society, is not restrained to it, so therefore my objectives are pertinent anywhere relevant. It's not the nation state or geographically defined culture that we're up against but the institution that constructs the idea of nation states. For me the stakes are global and therefore not about battling the West, but freeing the world from the condition this technoindustrial institution from it's clutches. You see a mere gorilla, I see a leviathan, what differs here is what we're doing or intending on doing about it. What I seek is not for a certain group of people,but for mankind and laugh if you want, animal kind too and most of all my beloved planet Earth. So long as we remain compliant the cycle continues,it wont matter if it's the Raj and his cronies, they're replaceable; the dominion of this institution is my concern. The raj and the cronies are it's manifestations, nothing more.

Actually yes Gandhi's movement was a product of the colonized mentality and to a certain degree Bacha Khan was not as brave as he's made out to be, although I wouldn't call him a coward as much as mislead. Nothing a colonizer wants than easy to manage subjects, a passive entity is more agreeable than a nonpassive one, and sitting around holding signs alone did not remove the British from India. The devastations of World War II did, the idea of managing an international colony was no longer feasible for the British, none of the protests in the world had dented the British, but the banking of British level pounds in the hands of their brown skinned subjects was too much for the Queen's Court to take, after all there were at that time nearly 500,000,000 Hindustanis sahibs, and 30,000,000 Brits, it's better to just keep sahibs as workers, constantly leaping for the carrot, whether as migrants or distance market dependents in their over run lands; also let's prop one group against the other to exacerbate animosities so they could make it so their subjects never really become self sufficient. The Stage was set and Britain got out scot free, and now India is a prized destination for sex tourists, Pakistan a Mujra dance capital of the world, and Bangladesh is about to be flooded into the Bay. Pakhtoons/Afghanistan/Pakhtunkhwah is somehow stuck being dragged down in the ensuing muck. Thanks Gandhi?

British orientalists like William Muir derived terms like/similar to "Arabian Honor" in reference to Islaam, such arguments are exactly the divide and rule schemes being used used against us. However even with Al-Qaeda, Salafist Mujahideen and Medeival Islaamic history; I have never seen or heard of an Arab even during the Ummayad dynasty claiming an Afghan area or territory as the vestige and prize exclusively of the Arabs; and they were known for their ethnocentrism, the fact is regardless of what you feel about Islaam as being some trojan horse of Arabian conquest, a few thousand Arabs could not overrun a massive Empire of Iran without the help of the people; there was no Arabian honor here, just Justice of Islaam, it never would have succeeded otherwise. The British used to call Pershawar the "Queen's Dominion" and such. We've been suffering for years due to their colonial scheme, no scheme of Arabian Honor has ever harmed so much as this. My point being this is all a red herring, one which only seeks us to fight amongst ourselves with Arabs and Punjabis, pitting one group against another, and diverting us from our real enemies, and paying tribute to their ambitions. It's time we wake up.

[Toramana]

Actually yes Gandhi's movement was a product of the colonized mentality and to a certain degree Bacha Khan was not as brave as he's made out to be, although I wouldn't call him a coward as much as mislead. Nothing a colonizer wants than easy to manage subjects, a passive entity is more agreeable than a nonpassive one, and sitting around holding signs alone did not remove the British from India. The devastations of World War II did, the idea of managing an international colony was no longer feasible for the British, none of the protests in the world had dented the British, but the banking of British level pounds in the hands of their brown skinned subjects was too much for the Queen's Court to take, after all there were at that time nearly 500,000,000 Hindustanis sahibs, and 30,000,000 Brits, it's better to just keep sahibs as workers, constantly leaping for the carrot, whether as migrants or distance market dependents in their over run lands; also let's prop one group against the other to exacerbate animosities so they could make it so their subjects never really become self sufficient. The Stage was set and Britain got out scot free, and now India is a prized destination for sex tourists, Pakistan a Mujra dance capital of the world, and Bangladesh is about to be flooded into the Bay. Pakhtoons/Afghanistan/Pakhtunkhwah is somehow stuck being dragged down in the ensuing muck. Thanks Gandhi?

British orientalists like William Muir derived terms like/similar to "Arabian Honor" in reference to Islaam, such arguments are exactly the divide and rule schemes being used used against us. However even with Al-Qaeda, Salafist Mujahideen and Medeival Islaamic history; I have never seen or heard of an Arab even during the Ummayad dynasty claiming an Afghan area or territory as the vestige and prize exclusively of the Arabs; and they were known for their ethnocentrism, the fact is regardless of what you feel about Islaam as being some trojan horse of Arabian conquest, a few thousand Arabs could not overrun a massive Empire of Iran without the help of the people; there was no Arabian honor here, just Justice of Islaam, it never would have succeeded otherwise. The British used to call Pershawar the "Queen's Dominion" and such. We've been suffering for years due to their colonial scheme, no scheme of Arabian Honor has ever harmed so much as this. My point being this is all a red herring, one which only seeks us to fight amongst ourselves with Arabs and Punjabis, pitting one group against another, and diverting us from our real enemies, and paying tribute to their ambitions. It's time we wake up.

Go on bastadising a whole branch (and highest form) of human knowledge aimed at uncovering the truth for that abhorent Camel-agenda i.e., the defence and propomotion of desert interests ...yet call others ethnocenterists...No one is as radically a Pashtun nationalist here as you are a rabbies-bitten Arab chauvinist....Bravo...


An then the claims to be a mutazilaid...an intellectually sub-rated person that without any qualms can prostitute disciplines like Ecology and logic to promote Arabism can be anything but a mutazilaid...

[Alchemist]

That being said, the people deserve out our sympathies. However, as an American I shall do exactly as John Quincy Adams told us to do and:

"Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."
John Quincy Adams

Therefore, I shall stake a consistent stance on this and note that I wish the Egyptians well and my prayers are with them, but as an American, I urge that not a single dollar nor a single American life ought to be spent to secure Egypt's freedom. To balance, this not a single dollar or life ough to go towards their military regime or ought to have gone there in the first place. The Egyptians have to earn the right of a nation state to exist and flourish and they appear to be doing that right now. We have the right to generally stay silent and out of their affairs.

As a Muslim American the best thing I can do for my people around the world is encourage noninterventionalism. This allows an intellectual reconciliation of my Islamic mindset and the oath I took as an American doctor to save and not destroy life; as I yearn for my fellow religion men and women to flourish but I also yearn to protect the lives and liberties of Americans here.

This reconciliation is found in the ayaahs that urge Muslims to sue for peace should the aggressor (in this case the US and the Western imperial powers) sue for peace. These ayaahs meet John Quincy Adam's and Washington's exhortations at a healthy middle ground. If, as an American Muslim I can help this nation sue for peace than a balance can be reached between these adopted people and the traditional Muslim lands.

More likely the cycle of empire shall continue as empires have risen and fallen before this one. So my ideals are tempered with pragmatism.

Do you foresee a revolution in America?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Go on bastadising a whole branch (and highest form) of human knowledge aimed at uncovering the truth for that abhorent Camel-agenda i.e., the defence and propomotion of desert interests ...yet call others ethnocenterists...No one is as radically a Pashtun nationalist here as you are a rabbies-bitten Arab chauvinist....Bravo...


An then the claims to be a mutazilaid...an intellectually sub-rated person that without any qualms can prostitute disciplines like Ecology and logic to promote Arabism can be anything but a mutazilaid...

How can I be an Arab chauvinist when everything I am speaking against ethnic nationalism?

the problem here isn't that I prostitute logic; the problem is you you lack logic in how you address life and as a result are so hell bent on projecting this hallucination of arabism derived orientalist imperialist brainwashing, because you can't bear to think you're under ferangi mind control. You suffer some inferiority complex that's rubbed off from Persian Nationalist circles; Pashtuns have historically never been in conflict with Arabs. Stop diverting focus from the real enemy, your Ferangi slave masters.

I dare you to actually produce one explicit piece of evidence that I'm as you claim.

[Toramana]

How can I be an Arab chauvinist when everything I am speaking against ethnic nationalism?

the problem here isn't that I prostitute logic; the problem is you you lack logic in how you address life and as a result are so hell bent on projecting this hallucination of arabism derived orientalist imperialist brainwashing, because you can't bear to think you're under ferangi mind control. You suffer some inferiority complex that's rubbed off from Persian Nationalist circles; Pashtuns have historically never been in conflict with Arabs. Stop diverting focus from the real enemy, your Ferangi slave masters.

I dare you to actually produce one explicit piece of evidence that I'm as you claim.

I have tested your mantle in many thread...and have witnessed how you prostitute terms, terminologies (e.g. logical fallacies) to win an argument under the illusion that other people are ignorant and don't understand these things ...

Desert interests might be overwhelming you but it is dishomnest as well as counter produtive to *******ise a whole disciplines of knowledge of which you don't have even superficial understanding to force in your point...

First complete your college diploma and then try to understand the things deeply on the basis of which you pretend to make arguments....and then argue...