Toramana appreciation thread

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Why should one say 'well I dont know'. I say God/allah/jesus or the holy goat/cow, what ever is ones fancy, ,has absolutely no say, in the affairs of two consensual adults (i am talking about a man and a woman of sound age and not trying to stir your homosexual fantacies) engaged in what ever healthy activity they so desire.

allah and his holy book, gita and the holy cow, or what ever you are reading at the moment, what has that got to do with it.

This stupid logic of dragging allah into everything has caused 10s of thousands of poor women jailed on idiotic charges of sexual impropriety in pakistan in the name of Islam. Think about them for just one second. Even the children of these women live in jails with them. Chanting Allah is great does not wash the stain on our collective consciousness of these horrific atrocities.

Do we want to see these things in the name of islam in pashtoon land. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12344959

So I had previously asked you to learn to write in standard English when you made a fool of yourself elsewhere. It appears that you ignored this advice. As a result, you maintain an inability to communicate effectively and convey your point.

1. You confuse two concepts: religious belief and being legally disenfranchized. The latter can happen in any society, even a secular one. In fact, I am sure you can find jails in Turkey filled with people that are imprisoned without either due process or with evidence that is ambiguous. To add to this, here in the US the Innocence Project, under Barry Scheck has made waves when it comes to utilizing DNA evidence to overturn capital punishments. You might be correct in saying that someone perverting the word of God to punish others unjustly is worse than a secular agreement that violates religious morals. However, that is not how you convey this with your verbage (garbage).

2. The statement is circular because you repeatedly point out that God has no place to pass judgement on two consenting adults having sex. However, a believer of a particular faith will disagree because that is his belief system. You are basically asking him: "why should God care about people having sex?" He answers: "look, I believe in a higher power and that higher power decided that premarital sex is a sin." So you basically waste your time and ours with such frivolous concerns about religion.

3. You have an ethical dilemma in your brain. You promote homosexuality as an equivalent and recognizable lifestyle, yet you use homosexual as an insult/slander. You seem to enjoy throwing the term around. What I have found in my life is that people who have an inferiority complex or are closet homosexuals themselves (Reverand Tim Haggard) act this way. Perhaps you ought to have some internal dialogue regarding what your fascination is with homosexuality.

4. Just as you wish us to bless two consenting adults go about their private business, we wish for you to take a crash course on reality. For example, one ought to have the right to free speech. However, when John Lennon said that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus Christ, the southern bible belt of America was on fire (subsequently Lennon was killed by a Christian fundamentalist). So this odd notion that executing an ideology automatically detaches you from reality shows how little you know about life in general and about human response to stimuli.

5. With 4 in mind, and with you wanting us to give you your blessing to have as much consentual sex as possible, lets take this further. When you are older and have a daughter, are you going to be OK with her having consensual sex? What about her deciding to become a pornographer? How would you feel if a male came off the street and said "Begum, I want to have consensual sex with your daughter or sister... she agreed and we are planning on this at 6 pm tonight."

This is not to bait you or insult you, its to get you to step into someone elses shoes. Many men, even American men would be furious. In fact, there was recently a case in the news here in Connecticut where a cop assaulted a boy for doing just that with his daughter. He has a very human response based on his moral ideologies.

For that matter, many mothers would disappointed with their sons or daughters should such actions take place.

[Alchemist]

^ isnt "Begum" urdu for mistress?
I think baygham is female
you know "i feel shackled by my culture..uff i wanna show off some" ....
you know it's all about yin yang psychology. Females are nurturing and submissive, giving and caring ...which is why it is generally expected of them to be "gay" and not as much frowned upon as on men. So that could explain the homosexuality bit...don't you think barakzai?

[randolph85]

i am going to go ahead and guess that bay has at least 3 std's and blames the unsightly bumps on his lips as well as the burning sensenation when he urinates on religion.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

^ isnt "Begum" urdu for mistress?
I think baygham is female
you know "i feel shackled by my culture..uff i wanna show off some" ....
you know it's all about yin yang psychology. Females are nurturing and submissive, giving and caring ...which is why it is generally expected of them to be "gay" and not as much frowned upon as on men. So that could explain the homosexuality bit...don't you think barakzai?

Beg (male)/Begum (female) --> turkic titles also in vogue in Persia. For example, Ahmad Shah Abdali's mentor was known as Nadir Shah Afshar Qoli Beg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Shah

Freudian slip on my part.

His ^ name means Bay (devoid of) Gham (care) or carefree in Pashto.

Because of my mother's time in Kabul and the fact that my father and her derive from different areas, I mix the Yusufzai/Kabul and Shin dialects and usually end up speaking a sort of fusion dialect with some farsi mixed in. So Ill say pishqaab for plate and paryaan/tumbaan instead of the standard Pashto words, confusing some folks.

Now with a Wazir wife, its getting even more complicated and folks will likely not be able to pinpoint exactly where my kids have derived from. So my wife's family says "eblaa pshaay" for bare foot as an example and they refer to each other's wives as "zarra".

[Admin Khan]

And I thought doctors might get along. :-)

[ScimitarXEdge]

Be happy in in your culture, buddy. Get melted in the great melting pot, like the millions of Europeans and others, there is no role for lost generations coming back to father land in pakhtunkwha. If you feel alienated with your present circumstances and fascinated with arabic folklore, than go apply for saudi nationality or join an islamic center and be happy about it. This venom is not welcomed in Pashtoon land. It may be good business, I agree, but not needed. Kind of like, cigarettes, good for the farmers of Swabi, but not for the people of pakhtunkwha.

I wrote that post on Zina in 2003, now I dont have TV and dont get my medical and forensic updates from CSI, but am sure that was not popular back than and what I wrote was known in the public domain long before.

Belief is a personal preference, like the color of a shirt I may like. To impose and kill humans for it is sick. Whether those humans are pashtoon or jews, it is equally sick to me. If it is not to you, than go visit a competent psychiatrist, for you do need help.

To be honest I rather have 20 years of economic stagnation like Japan than what is presently happening in pakhtunland. Even mentioning the two in the same sentence is hogwash. 'chartha toothi lal, aw chartha lal dha badhakhshan".

Was this written out of irony or self deluded stupidity? It appears you're more eager to melt Pakhtun society and culture into the European Hegemonistic Melting pot of Neocolonial enterprise, than anyone else here. Hence this clearly Northern European concocted model of sexual politics.

And please don't pretend you're some "Sada Asle Pakhtun" from Pakhtunkhwah; your idioms, semantics and value structure reek of thorough acculturation to mores completely alien to Pakhtuns, i.e. colonized mentality by the hands of Europeans; you were clearly raised somewhere outside of Pakhtunkhwah/Afghanistan or the like, if you are Pakhtun that is which is rapidly coming into doubt the more you blather

All the typical staple errorneous rebuttal tactics like "Arab Folklore" something traditionally peddled by completely uneducated Orientalists are employed as the usual scapegoats. Anyone learned on the matter is familiar between the vast distinctions between the folklore of Arabs and the Islamic Ideology.

How pathetic to see you claiming yourself as some official spokes person of Pakhtuns when every viewpoint you hold is opposed and rejected by Pakhtun values, principles and and sociocultural norms. If you haven't checked the overwhelming majority of Pakhtuns identify with Islam, those who don't are conventionally not Pakhtun, or from some poor South Asian society who's culture being wrought by European colonization, have been reduced to suffering an inferiority complex due to historical attempts at conditioning the populace have deludedly identified European cultural norms as a model of life. You seem to fit into the later category. The hubris you have to imply Islam is a poison or something alien to Pakhtuns when it's had centuries to assimilate and interweave itself into the Pakhtun societal matrix, all the while promoting self destructive modes of sexual behavior which have created dysfunctional sociocultural norms in Industrial/Capitalist/Imperialist societies. The cigarette analogy seems to be more befitting in your case here; especially considering how huge such industry the industry of deviant forms of sense gratification which go against their evolutionary functions are in Capitalist cultures.

Addressing belief, sexual mores; Theyr'e not only Allah(swt)'s buisness, they're society's business too. Beliefs and ideas determine everything from the allocation of resources, the application of resources and their directives to social interactions and dealings. Everything depends on beliefs and principles and ideas. to Equate them to such casual things like shirt choice is like comparing eating a candy bar to eating nourishing food. Yes they're both choices; but one is needed, the other is negligible. Society has always developed such rules of those to regulate it by those who are compatible with it's mode of operations and those who are not, the "nots" are those who are expunged, whether by death or ostracization; this is an anthropological reality; to deny this is only to live in the Fairy Tale and Folk lore of Europeans. What's done in the "name of Islam" and what's Islamic teachings are not the same. Anyone can falsely use a name to scapegoat under, this however does not make it ratified under Islam. Islam is free of blame, it is only those who attempt to falsely represent it who are called into account. It's no surprise that those who do unislamic things in Islam's name, are not following Islam.

Here's my analysis, you're dysfunctional, and have a tendency to endorse self destructive behaviors; this is all a tragic byproduct of feeling like a lesser form of life compared to Northern Europeans. I mean why wouldn't you? You've had them tell you day in and day out of your upbringing in Canada that their environmentally destructive, resource wasting way of life is the pinnacle of human progress and advancement; you never questioned it because they imposed this standard standard upon every aspect of life. So here you are with this complex, this persistent anxiety which cannot be tamed. You hate your own existence, and life itself and want so bad to desecrate it in whatever way possible to appease this resentment; you're ostracized by Pakhtuns, people you want so badly to be apart of because of the historical prestige of resisting Europeans, all the while wanting them to succumb to Europeans to compensate this feeling of inadequacy. You're a tortured soul, with mental illness. Are you sure it's not you who needs a competent psychiatrist here?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

And I thought doctors might get along. :-)

I dont have an issue with him. Its sort of similar to what you felt about Sangar's post the other day. Its that this fellow physician makes these statements that, if they were rephrased, might actually get him a target audience. Instead, he makes obsolete arguments that are one way and more opinion pieces than even arguments of logic.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

And I thought doctors might get along. :-)

I mean how do you answer the monumentally stupid question that equates to: why do people with a monotheistic/abrahamic belief system think that premarital consensual sexual intercourse is illicit?

I dont even think Richard Dawkins would appreciate his style as Dawkins at least understands that, for instance, asking Francis Collins: "Hey Francis, though you are a believing Christian, whats your deal with believing that Jesus wouldnt endorse lieing, I mean you gotta lie sometimes right? " would make Dawkins look dumb beyond measure. The answer is right in front him: because Collins is a Christian and has accepted the precepts of Christianity.

Its like when Osho and others say: Hey why dont you all just change that part of the Quran that says the stuff about Soddom and Gomorrah and inheritance law. What kind of retarded jacked up logic is that in a discussion? I am not a scholar on Sikhism or Hinduism, but I know enough that if I asked an Indian Mundaar Priest: "Hey buddy, you know that whole Gita verse thing and the Rama and Sita story? Well yeah, so they kinda of dont make sense and do you wanna get rid of them?" If I am fairly certain that the Hindu believes his scripture derives from Brahman and that he also believes its not man made... what makes me think that he is just going to go "ho hum, sure lets delete this part here and add a section about Romeo and Juliet instead."

Why would anyone entertain such absurd suggestions when an article of the oppositions faith says: see this book, you know the thing between two covers... it all comes from an all knowing all seeing omnipotent being. I know evangelicals that tell me, contrary to many mainstream Christians: Yep, every word of the New Testament is verbatim the word of God. Where do I think I would get in discussion if I said: yeah so you know that part that talks about Christ throwing the money lenders out of the temple: lets delete that. They would look at me like I missed half of the conversation with them.

These people initiate discussions with nonstarter commentary that borders on absurd.

[Alchemist]

Beg (male)/Begum (female) --> turkic titles also in vogue in Persia. For example, Ahmad Shah Abdali's mentor was known as Nadir Shah Afshar Qoli Beg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Shah

Freudian slip on my part.

His ^ name means Bay (devoid of) Gham (care) or carefree in Pashto.

Because of my mother's time in Kabul and the fact that my father and her derive from different areas, I mix the Yusufzai/Kabul and Shin dialects and usually end up speaking a sort of fusion dialect with some farsi mixed in. So Ill say pishqaab for plate and paryaan/tumbaan instead of the standard Pashto words, confusing some folks.

Now with a Wazir wife, its getting even more complicated and folks will likely not be able to pinpoint exactly where my kids have derived from. So my wife's family says "eblaa pshaay" for bare foot as an example and they refer to each other's wives as "zarra".

That is so interesting.

In farsi baygham also means without worries, but I didn't think it to be also a pashto word so I was confused. Especially so when beygham was being critical of Scimitar for not picking a pashto name instead. Typically gham also is used in Urdu, but I figured originally it is dari. Then again we also use words like bayaqil, baysharaf, bayghairat...again ..aqil and sharaf and ghairat have an arabic origin...which goes to show that really we are a mix and we shouldn't be too confused over that fact.
It's really sad that some afghans choose to pick up on the negative aspects of western society and totally miss out on the more pragmatic and functional values. Such as the fact that if you ever ask an american or a canadian where are you from, they will say "america" or "canada" respectively, even if they are one or two generation migrants of germany or england or Ireland. People like baygham and tormana instead want to define pashtun nationalism on some vague and obtuse super race that doesn't exist. Still subconsciously they are advocating debunked socialist darwinian ideologies that clever minds like adolph and yosif couldn't realize. They suffer from their myopic gaze and fail to visualize a world at peace otherwise they would never agree to the whole sale rape of both Afghanistan and Pakistan by the colonial forces. If the people are fighting it is because they want sharia law to prevail. Instead what the global conspirators, the proponents of free market economy who have sworn to enslave the masses, have successfully implanted the idea that people ought to be coerced into democracy for their own good.
When this fool talks about "consensual" sex, what he really means to say is that cuckoldry and promiscuity favours a society in which individuals have complete autonomy over their own existence, in other words, people are gods...they can do whatever they want...without worry of consequence or anything at all...bay gham...girl gets pregnant? It's ok ...get an abortion. They are the type for whom technological advancements (like the creation of latex) becomes a disservice to their souls as they are too lazy to control their wanton desires.

Anyway .... I carry this conversation here with you as you expressed that you'd like this thread to run for much longer..so I'll await for your thoughts

[Admin Khan]

I dont have an issue with him. Its sort of similar to what you felt about Sangar's post the other day. Its that this fellow physician makes these statements that, if they were rephrased, might actually get him a target audience. Instead, he makes obsolete arguments that are one way and more opinion pieces than even arguments of logic.

Oh,what I said was meant to be a joke. Since Baygham is a doctor, and you are a doctor, I figured I'd throw that in there.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

That is so interesting.

In farsi baygham also means without worries, but I didn't think it to be also a pashto word so I was confused. Especially so when beygham was being critical of Scimitar for not picking a pashto name instead. Typically gham also is used in Urdu, but I figured originally it is dari. Then again we also use words like bayaqil, baysharaf, bayghairat...again ..aqil and sharaf and ghairat have an arabic origin...which goes to show that really we are a mix and we shouldn't be too confused over that fact.
It's really sad that some afghans choose to pick up on the negative aspects of western society and totally miss out on the more pragmatic and functional values. Such as the fact that if you ever ask an american or a canadian where are you from, they will say "america" or "canada" respectively, even if they are one or two generation migrants of germany or england or Ireland. People like baygham and tormana instead want to define pashtun nationalism on some vague and obtuse super race that doesn't exist. Still subconsciously they are advocating debunked socialist darwinian ideologies that clever minds like adolph and yosif couldn't realize. They suffer from their myopic gaze and fail to visualize a world at peace otherwise they would never agree to the whole sale rape of both Afghanistan and Pakistan by the colonial forces. If the people are fighting it is because they want sharia law to prevail. Instead what the global conspirators, the proponents of free market economy who have sworn to enslave the masses, have successfully implanted the idea that people ought to be coerced into democracy for their own good.
When this fool talks about "consensual" sex, what he really means to say is that cuckoldry and promiscuity favours a society in which individuals have complete autonomy over their own existence, in other words, people are gods...they can do whatever they want...without worry of consequence or anything at all...bay gham...girl gets pregnant? It's ok ...get an abortion. They are the type for whom technological advancements (like the creation of latex) becomes a disservice to their souls as they are too lazy to control their wanton desires.

Anyway .... I carry this conversation here with you as you expressed that you'd like this thread to run for much longer..so I'll await for your thoughts

Well there you go, more persian and arabic finding its way into what I say.

I didn't mean to reinforce its length... I just was embarrassed about the appreciation thread for myself and felt fine with the spotlight on Toramana. However, the gesture by Kakargirl was appreciated as she always has the best of intentions.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Oh,what I said was meant to be a joke. Since Baygham is a doctor, and you are a doctor, I figured I'd throw that in there.

Read up on the Eric Topol and Toby Cosgrove clash. It was like clash of the titans or Hulk Hogan versus Andre the Giant ala Wrestlemania 3. For that matter, read up on Denton Cooly and Michael DeBakey (that was like when Hulk and the Ultimate Warrior went at in Wrestlemania 6). Sorry for the wrestling references... you grow up on that stuff like mayonnaise sandwiches down in dixie.

[randolph85]

baygham specializes in prostrate exams. he does house calls too i hear.

[randolph85]

Read up on the Eric Topol and Toby Cosgrove clash. It was like clash of the titans or Hulk Hogan versus Andre the Giant ala Wrestlemania 3. For that matter, read up on Denton Cooly and Michael DeBakey (that was like when Hulk and the Ultimate Warrior went at in Wrestlemania 6). Sorry for the wrestling references... you grow up on that stuff like mayonnaise sandwiches down in dixie.

u are a regular bobby the brain heenan. u damn humanoids.

[Wrayun]

Except a few discussions I had with LZ and Dust, most of the secular moderate atheists here, including Baygham, rarely present arguments that are intellectually stimulating. Much of it, if I may say, is hot steam build up over years of personal frustration looking for relief. Some of the arguments presented by Baygham hurt his position more then help it. As a civilized, moderate, humanist atheist, I called him out on his homophobic tendencies before:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/future-secular-pukhtoon-state-pornography-laws-5777/

Ironic, that he is asking ScimitarXEdge to "melt in the melting pot" while all along a as evolved Pukhtoon atheist he wishes to acclimatize the entire Pukhtoon society to his own newly found, non-Pukhtoon, mostly Western, ideologies. If anyone should just give up and melt in the melting pot, as I suggested before, are these atheists. Particularly who wish to enforce cultures and social norms complete alien to Pukhtoons. You have evolved, you have found a new way of life, good for you. Move on, don't let nostalgia hold you back.

Oh, for that Baygham had an excuse as well, he said that the world won't let him. That's why he remains to be a Pukhtoon and chooses to associates with them. The Western world? As far as I know, in the West, aka the melting pot, no one cares about your race, sex or origin. You choose to hold on to your ethnic baggage, and now wish to drag the whole of your ethnic populace with you into your new understandings. And how does he do it? He says that they, most of them, majority of them, suffer from a diseases called "Islam". His own words.....It's like that saying....the village laughs at the idiot, and the idiot laughs at the village.

Sort your complexes out. Let go.