Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[ozymandias]

Ozy, you have to remember that Islam is pretty much the last place where anti-semitism and conspiracy theories related to that are accepted. Not all muslims believe in that stuff, no doubt, but a lot of islamic pundits and groups expouse propaganda that mirrors the Nazis and Henry Ford.

Seriously? Where do they think all the people killed in the Holocaust went? Spaceship to Mars?

I digress.

[ozymandias]

Dear ozymandias,

Dear friend, your answer hints at the fact that you do believe Islam is a violent religion. Not everything is a logical fallacy. Just because someone cannot comprehend that 2+2=4, does not mean that 2+2 does not equal to 4.

Agreed -- but the definition of math, and addition is pretty rigidly defined, and it is possible to use logic to prove 2+2=4 using purely logical methods.

In much the same fashion, Islam is defined -- and no where in that definition is the phrase 'and agrees with so-and-so'. The definition of Islam is fairly well defined, but the particular beliefs of Islam are less well defined. To say that a person is not Muslim simply because you do not agree with them is fallacious.

Fair enough!



Thank you! It will take a while before I properly acquaint myself with the whole forum.

I find a lot of contradictions in the second part of your statement. How have you concluded that Islam condones violence when you have peaceful friends, and to top it out, you are fighting for our cause?

Let me clarify a few things.

Again, I have never said that Islam is a violent religion, simply that violent people can and do use Islam, and these people condone violence in the name of Islam. My peaceful friends are not among those that support violence, and actually oppose it on religious grounds. The world would be a better place if they did represent all of Islam. Sadly, they do not. Lastly, I am not so much supporting your cause, as I am supporting a particular *method* of supporting your cause. It is not your religion or even your goals that I support when I go to these peaceful rallies -- it is the use of peaceful rallies to achieve your goals that I support.

I go to these rallies in an effort to support non-violence, and the use of free and open speech to obtain goals. I support education, not Islam.

I think, based on this statement, that you have trouble with religion as a whole and not specifically Islam. If my assumption is true, then hopefully I will try my best to help you to reconcile this.

I am an open, and notorious Agnostic Atheist, and am quite comfortable with this.

Correct, but this does not make religion bad. Religion would not be needed if people did not have shortcomings by nature.

I agree more than you would think -- but maybe not for the reasons that you think.

Perhaps I have, and this is only due to the fact that I am new here.

Welcome -- not that I have been here very long myself.

If someone claims to be Muslim and commits acts that are not widely accepted, Muslims, who disagree with his or her actions, cannot call him or her a non-Muslim.

Agreed -- and this is what I have been pointing out.

Muslims can say that his actions are not Islamic.

Agreed -- but one can preform actions that are not representative of a group, but still maintain association with that group, in some cases. For example, you could say that *ANY* sin is not Islamic, correct? Or at least sins, after a certain point, right? But that does not mean a sinner is not a Muslim -- at worst, it means they are a bad Muslim.

And if this is not enough for those who insist that his actions are a reflection of Islam, then the onus lies on them to prove it.

Every religion can be distorted -- the proof is written all over history.

The reason being is that you have one Muslim who is peace loving, and you have another who is not. They both cannot be right.

I agree -- but not all Muslims will agree.

Besides, being right does not matter. The definition of Muslim is not 'one who follows the *CORRECT* version of Islam' -- it is 'one that follows the teachings of Islam', to paraphrase. Just because a teaching that they follow is wrong, once all is said and done, does not mean they failed to follow it.

So, if you are going to conclude that the action of the non-peace-loving Muslim is a true reflection of Islam, then you would have to show why.

I'm not saying anything about Islam as a whole -- other than it can and has been abused, just as any other religion has been -- and that those that follow the 'true' Islam (as you put it) need to be more vocal and try and inform these 'false' (as you label them) Muslims of their errors -- and not ignore them, and say "well, they are not Muslim, so it's not my problem". You, as a follower of a faith close to their own, stands the best chance of turning them back from using your religion as a tool to justify evil, and you also have even more cause to do so -- to protect the name and image of your faith.

[ozymandias]

ozymandias fails to answer who he concludes that terrorist are religion when Islam does not support innocent killing.

I try to answer *every* post directed to me that I see, and *every* post in the threads that I frequent, such as this one. I also try and read *every* reply in the threads I post in.

If I start ignoring people, I make it very clear why, well before I start ignoring them, and I usually reply to the posts they make, and state what it will take to get me to reply. If I find a poster unbearably rude, bigoted, or hateful, I will often tell them "If you rephrase this I will reply", or in the case of a poster that insists on discussing the wrong topic in the wrong thread, I will tell them to start a new thread. This was the case recently on a forum I frequent where a user insisted on turning every discussion into one on racism, and trying to derail every thread into that topic.

As to my brief absence, it's been a busy few days. I drove a friend to the airport yesterday, and today I had minor dental surgery and have not been around a computer.

[ozymandias]

I dont want to bombard him with questions so Ill wait till he replies to others.

Fire away.

If needed, we can start a new thread -- but if it is on topic here, post it here.

I'll do my best to reply soon ;-)

[ozymandias]

Anyone who kills people and says he is Muslim. Is NOT A MUSLIM.

Perhaps it would be more correct to say that a Muslim that kills innocent people is not your sort of Muslim?

Or ... is a bad Muslim?
Or ... is not acting like a Muslim?
Or ... is a different sort of Muslim than you? Perhaps they are a 'radical' Muslim?

[/quote]

P.S

I hope you are doing well now Ozy.[/QUOTE]

Much better now, thanks.

[ozymandias]

No, Anyone who commits terrorism, is just not a Muslim nor meets the definition of it.

We can create our own definitions now/

Ah, but then you cannot be upset when people still use the 'old' definition of a word.

[ozymandias]

Islam and terrorism has nothing in common. They don't go together.

The minute you support terrorism, you are not Muslim.

Funny. I can point to Muslims that will say that if you are unwilling to resort to terrorism to honor the memory of Mohammad, and to spread the message of Islam, you are not Muslim.

[ozymandias]

To terrorism?

Those are bootleg Muslims, or probably the CIA faking to be Muslims to demonize the community.

There you go automatically discrediting them with no basis.

Once again, even if you disagree with them, or their philosophy, you cannot simply label them as non-Muslim.

[ozymandias]

Anyone who encourages innocent killing is not Muslim


The Quran says killing one is like killing Mankind, saving one is like saving Mankind.

3 seconds with google shows how easy it is for someone to take another opinion:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98


On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161


Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216


But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89


When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5


Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29


O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73


Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. 9:123


When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4



Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9


Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame


I am the *first* to admit that these are out of context, and possibly subject to poor translation (it *was* a quick google, after all), but they still serve as examples as to how different Muslims can come to different conclusions as to what the Koran teaches than you do.

[Punjabi]

You are quoting out of context dude.

Refrain from that please.


Muslims condemn terrorism.

[ozymandias]

You are quoting out of context dude.

Refrain from that please.

That was pretty much the point.

Muslims condemn terrorism.

Some do, yes.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Dear ozymandias,

I think you just want to have a field day. You don't care about being enlightened. You just like arguing for the its sake. I might be wrong, but you are purposely taking verses out of context and bluntly admitting it is good enough reason to conclude this. Further, in your response to my previous post on this thread, it is clear that you are resorting to semantics.

Anyhow, if you wish to really be impartial and understand why things are the way they are then I am at your service.

Just a word of advise from someone humble who does not have the caliber of knowledge you have, don't play devil's advocate and don't disturb the peace of Muslims on purpose. If you disagree with us, then so be it, but don't please don't distort our beliefs.

[ozymandias]

Dear ozymandias,

I think you just want to have a field day. You don't care about being enlightened. You just like arguing for the its sake. I might be wrong, but you are purposely taking verses out of context and bluntly admitting it is good enough reason to conclude this. Further, in your response to my previous post on this thread, it is clear that you are resorting to semantics.

I think you completely missed my point.

It's pretty simple. If I can find evidence in under 3 seconds to even lay the groundwork, what do you think a person deliberately looking, and spending time and effort, can do to twist the meanings of the Koran?

The point is that the Koran *CAN BE TWISTED* to support these terrorists. It wasn't even that hard to do.

I am not saying that *I* find these arguments convincing -- in fact I pointed out that I do not. This does not mean that no one on the planet would find them convincing.

I find it interesting from a psychological stand point that so many are simply willing to dismiss the possibility rather than address the problem.

Anyhow, if you wish to really be impartial and understand why things are the way they are then I am at your service.

Just a word of advise from someone humble who does not have the caliber of knowledge you have, don't play devil's advocate and don't disturb the peace of Muslims on purpose. If you disagree with us, then so be it, but don't please don't distort our beliefs.

I think the language barriers are getting old. I not once stated that this is what Islam (as a whole) teaches, I am simply trying to show you not only how some Muslims can *EASILY* twist their own faith to justify what they wish -- and that this is a serious problem that you cannot just ignore.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

It does not matter how someone can twist something--anything can be twisted, anything--it matters how someone is capable of seeing beyond the smearing campaign. Islam has always been a target of smearing campaign. All the verses you pointed out are beautiful verses, full of wisdom. Islam has nothing to hide.

[Master Khan]

Yaara day la akka araam dy, Zama khayal day lewany dy.
preeda mana, sok daala dy no, ado ba khabara pio gi na.