Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[Master Khan]

Wow the thread's still going on..

When you attack black people, they call it racism. When you attack Jewish people, they call it anti-semetism. When you attack women, they call it sexism. When you attack homosexuality, they call it intolerance. When you attack your country, they call it treason. When you attack a religious sect, they call it hate speech. But when you attack the Prophet peace be upon him, they want to call it freedom of speech!

Deer khasta post di oko.
Khaney khor preeda, dai tool la khair zaman dy.

[ozymandias]

mispost

[ozymandias]

Wow the thread's still going on..

When you attack black people, they call it racism. When you attack Jewish people, they call it anti-semetism. When you attack women, they call it sexism. When you attack homosexuality, they call it intolerance. When you attack your country, they call it treason. When you attack a religious sect, they call it hate speech. But when you attack the Prophet peace be upon him, they want to call it freedom of speech!

Please, are you really that dense? *EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE YOU GAVE IS FREE SPEECH*. Period. They can both be free speech and those other things. Just because something is bigoted does not mean it cannot be free speech, and just because something is free speech does not mean it cannot be bigoted.

That is your problem. You look at these issues, and ignore the fact that every single example you gave is defended as free speech. You are either deliberately ignoring that, as it undermines the point you are trying to make, or you are bigoted. If you are accidentally ignoring these issues, you are woefully uneducated and uninformed about current events and international news.

Either way, you are the one with a double standard and are not acknowledging facts that do not coincide with your skewed world view.

[ozymandias]

In Kandahar, The Taliban asked Hindus to wear a tag to show they are Hindu so they won't be reprimanded for eating in Ramadan, not praying and etc.

France and USA said Taliban are racist. How can they discrimate?

Now in France they ban the Burka cause they want Muslims to become tissue papers like they already have such as having 20 girls in the past.

How do you explain that? Double standards?

I have no idea what you are asking here.

[ozymandias]

Well, depends on how you look at it. You are pretty much categorizing freedom fighter as a terrorist.

Once *again* No. I am not. I have *REPEATEDLY* stated the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. The two terms have *vastly* different definitions.

Anyone who dislikes the U.S.A is a terrorist? I am asking you.

Once again *NO*. Please read what I say:

I not only support your right to dislike any group -- including America. I encourage you to address what you hate -- with appropriate measures. A terrorist is one who attacks non-military targets, typically through a method designed to accomplish a goal by creating fear and terror. This often includes unconventional tactics such as crashing a civilian airliner into civilian businesses, or bombing a civilian bus depot.

Terrorism does not mean 'disagrees with what I support', nor do I unconditionally support the US actions. A terrorist is the **** that kills innocent non-combatants, either deliberately, or through callus disregard for their safety.

A freedom fighter is a military group (typically not part of the in-power government) attempting military goals through military means -- killing the opposing military, destroying strategic resources, and not engaging in crimes against humanity. Freedom fighters will not blow up a bus full of civilians to kill one military target. They will not try to achieve their goals through terror. To do that would be to become a terrorist.

It's really not all that complicated, despite the number of times I have to address this very question.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias, many of your posts I agree with I hold the same view as another member here.

but what you don't understand is the timimg. This is a time where the community is already under attack and feels threatened and others go as far as insulting the one thing left for them which there faith.

I am sorry, both that you feel that the actions taken to defend free speech from your fellow Muslims is an attack, and that your fellow Muslims have made that defense necessary.

I am sorry that you feel that these people forced the timing to be when you feel that you are already under attack.

I am sorry that you feel that being treated as an equal, and not given special treatment is an attack.

I am sorry that many of your faith do not understand modern society or fit into modern civilization.

I am sorry that you do not understand that these 'attacks' are only a defense against the actions of your fellow Muslims.

I am sorry that I am unable to bridge the cultural divide and help you become aware that this is the result of your own indifference to those that do things in the name of your religion.

The free world is not 'guilty' for defending free speech, just as Islam is not guilty for defending the honor of your prophet. The guilt lies on those that 'defend' his honor by doing terrible deeds in his name -- and those that refuse to reprimand them.

The free world is not 'guilty' of poor timing -- the free world was not given a choice in timing. An attack was made on core civil liberties, and the defense has to happen now -- because tomorrow, next week, next year it is already too late and you have lost those freedoms.

nice to have you here ozy.

And you, as well.

[ozymandias]

Wait so according to you insulting Islam is freedom of speech?

Insulting anything is free speech. Any race, color, quality, creed, ethnicity, idea, theory, plan, family club, religion, group, hobby, book, place, or lifestyle.

The fact that they are insulting Islam is irrelevant.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias brother I agree suicide bomb is not the right response death of civilians is not the right response.



but you can explain to me intentionally making fun of someones belief is freedom of speech? If I come up to you and tell you and your wife some very dirty things or talk about someone you really love you would just smile at me?

Simple: It is. By definition mocking anything is covered by free speech.

I am not saying you have to *LIKE* what they say. To the contrary, I have stated time and time again, that you have every right to be offended. Free speech does not mean you have to listen to what they say, or have to like it, or even approve of the content of what they say. It simply says that no matter how stupid, ignorant, or bigoted what they are saying -- they have the right to say it.

If you do not like what they are saying, use appropriate methods to address it. Talk with them. Use legal means to address slander and libel. Use free speech to *correct* what they say. Speak calmly, rationally, and sanely to make them look foolish. Boycott them and their businesses. Picket them. Protest them -- but what ever you do, do so NON-VIOLENTLY.

I think part of the core issue is that people around here have no understanding of what free speech is. I have been asked variations of this question many many times, and I have replied many, many times on this forum, yet still people are confused, either through woeful lack of education or a deliberate unwillingness to understand.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias,
So the ban of facebook and Youtube in a Pakistan a nation with nearly 200million is unaccetable?

I feel it is unacceptable as it is a limit to free speech. The internet users should be allowed to make the decision themselves if they wish to view those videos and images. To say that YouTube or Facebook is unacceptable to view because it has images of Mohammad is not only censoring, but it is imposing religious rules on those that have a right not to be of that religion.

That said, censorship being better or worse than violence is debatable. On one hand, at least no one died, on the other, free access to information and education has been restricted.

Ozy, you must understand that there is a difference between ausing offence and doing something intentnionally as compared to freedom of speech.

Not at all. Causing offense is still part of free speech. I, and everyone else on this planet, have the right to speak our opinions, no matter how offensive them may seem. Not a single person on this planet has the right to not be offended.

just like how your country clearly differentiated between freedom of speech we Muslims do as well.

I'm not sure what you mean.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias why can't they just respect our religion?

They respect your religion every bit as much as they respect any other religion. You are not asking for respect, you are asking for special treatment.

[ozymandias]

When I saw this image, I had to laugh, and think of this thread:

WARNING: CONTAINS AN IMAGE OF MOHAMMAD

http://www.keshertalk.com/images/blogpix/Mohammed.gif

With all the people screaming and carrying on about the Jews and feeling the need to drag them into the conversation just to insult them....

[ozymandias]

No we are not.

Yes. You are.

Take this image for instance:



This is is part of the South Park portrayal of religious figures. Buddah did coke. Jesus watched Internet porn. Joseph Smith is the focus of an entire episode, and has the theme song 'Dumb dumb dumb'. Mohammad? Not even depicted, let alone mocked -- and death threats still occurred.

To ask for *better* treatment of your religious icon is exactly that -- special treatment. Incidentally it is this request for special treatment that makes people feel the need to defend the freedom of speech. If Islam respected other's rights to freedom of speech, and did not demand special treatment from the end of a gun, this would not be an issue.

Terrorists are not Muslims.

Some clearly are.

We respect you. we expect respect back.

You may respect free speech -- but not all of Islam does. Unfortunately there is no way to defend free speech in this case that will selectively target the disrespectful, so until those attacking free speech are stopped, you will have to suffer the consequences of the abuses of your religion.

Helping solve the problem and eliminating the bad Muslims would get the result accomplished much quicker -- ignoring the issue and pretending they are not Muslim will make it take longer.

Aiding them makes you deserve to be offended, in my opinion, as you would be a despicable human being, not deserving of respect or decency.

We say the word peace be upon him everytime we hear the name of any Prophet and that is what we get back in return?

Nope. You are inaccurately equating a positive behavior of *some* of you -- (and it's positiveness is debatable) with a negative reaction, when the two are unrelated. You get 'this' in return for some of you attacking universal human rights, like free speech.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias,
We respect other religions as well.

So this is what we do. We give you special treatment. we expect it back in return. fair enough?

Once again, you are getting confused -- just because *you* (an individual) may respect other religions does not mean *you* (a religion as a whole) does.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Once again, you are getting confused -- just because *you* (an individual) may respect other religions does not mean *you* (a religion as a whole) does.

You call Muslims as Terrorists over acts by a few
Yet you ignore the crimes the Israeli Khazar Jews are doing to palestinians.

I am still puzzled as what is your purpose here on this Pashtunforum?

Are trying to brainwash us not to question Jews by saying its bigotry but its okay to insult Muslims and Islam?

Ozzzzy just admit you are Jewish.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Yes. You are.

Take this image for instance:



This is is part of the South Park portrayal of religious figures. Buddah did coke. Jesus watched Internet porn. Joseph Smith is the focus of an entire episode, and has the theme song 'Dumb dumb dumb'. Mohammad? Not even depicted, let alone mocked -- and death threats still occurred.

To ask for *better* treatment of your religious icon is exactly that -- special treatment. Incidentally it is this request for special treatment that makes people feel the need to defend the freedom of speech. If Islam respected other's rights to freedom of speech, and did not demand special treatment from the end of a gun, this would not be an issue.



Some clearly are.



You may respect free speech -- but not all of Islam does. Unfortunately there is no way to defend free speech in this case that will selectively target the disrespectful, so until those attacking free speech are stopped, you will have to suffer the consequences of the abuses of your religion.

Helping solve the problem and eliminating the bad Muslims would get the result accomplished much quicker -- ignoring the issue and pretending they are not Muslim will make it take longer.

Aiding them makes you deserve to be offended, in my opinion, as you would be a despicable human being, not deserving of respect or decency.



Nope. You are inaccurately equating a positive behavior of *some* of you -- (and it's positiveness is debatable) with a negative reaction, when the two are unrelated. You get 'this' in return for some of you attacking universal human rights, like free speech.

Where is the Jewish cartoon figure on the line?

You see Ozzy, We are not so naive.We know Jews pull the strings here to stir trouble, just like you, spending your whole day insulting muslims and islam and stiring a debate up on how bad muslims are, but never speak against or speak about the Jewish faith or their talmud.

You are a Hipocrite.