Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[akbarkhan]

Nazia,

Their sole aim is to bash Islam, this whole 'human rights' stuff is just a pretext otherwise these users would be on "Human rights violations, precendents and circumventions" thread instead.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias, Would it be hard to say they are not Muslim and lets label them there own form of religion?

It would not be hard -- but it would also be false. They feel that they are part of Islam.

If Islam says they promote peace, Then they are not Muslim if they kill innocent people right?

Nope, they are just not *YOUR* form of Islam.

[ozymandias]

Nazia,

Their sole aim is to bash Islam,

I assume the 'they' you speak of is me. Please show how my sole aim is to bash Islam, and not improve it, or learn about it, and it's members, before making these accusations.

this whole 'human rights' stuff is just a pretext

Again, please provide evidence to justify this claim.

otherwise these dimwits would be on "Human rights violations, precendents and circumventions" thread instead.

Please refrain from the name calling and insults. Perhaps the reason I am not commenting on that thread is that I simply did not know it existed -- the only threads I follow outside of the Religion forum are those that people *request* I comment on. I don't have time to follow all the threads on this forum, let alone defend the west against your attacks and bashing everywhere.

Now that I *KNOW* about this thread, I can look it over, and see if it is worth posting on, or if it is just another masturbatory thread you created to congratulate yourself on your unjustified bigotry, bias, and ignorance.

[ozymandias]

Akbar lala, wh is that people think they have to be Muslims. Obviously if someone wants to kill every human on sight for NO REASON they are not Muslim.

That is not what these people are doing. They are murdering people according to the rules they think Islam lays out for them.

It is a fallacy to overgeneralize this instance to the point of absurdity like that.

Am I wrong?

Quite. These people follow what they feel are the teachings of Islam, and are acting in the name of Islam, and can justify their actions and beliefs with their versions of Islam, and their interpretation of the hadiths and Koran.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias, How well do you know Islam my dear brother?
There is not a single verse in the Quran that says murder innocent people. That is exactly what these people are doing, SINCE they are doing it. They are not full abiding Muslims.

Do you agree with me?

No. You might think that your religion does not justify the murder of innocent people, but these people *DO*. Just ask Ahkbarkhan and Sangar -- they used hadiths to justify the murder of innocent people, and did so for a fairly long thread that eventually got shut down by the moderators.

I do not believe the bible states the Earth is only 6,000 years old, but those that believe it does are still Christian. There is *NOTHING* in the definition of Christianity or Islam that requires a follower to be *right* -- an honest belief is all it really takes. At worst, they are 'bad' Muslims -- but they are still Muslims.

In fact, they would likely argue that *you* are the bad Muslim, and they can, and do, point to verses to back that up.

[akbarkhan]

Please show how my sole aim is to bash Islam, and not improve it, or learn about it, and it's members, before making these accusations.

In my line of work I come across people like yourself on daily basis, as much I want to treat you as individual I can see a very visible pattern in your rhetoric, a pattern that all Islam bashers share in common!

It is very arrogant and ignorant of you to state that you want to 'improve Islam', Islam is not a man made religion that you could 'improve'. Islam is a perfect religion, now you might say 'thats silly, Akbar only says that because he is biased' but if you study Islam the scientific/academic way, you will be surprised how detailed it is in every aspect i.e who would have thought that flies carry viruses and their antidotes? or the exact stages of embryo formation? infact Keith L Moore makes references to Quranic verses in his book Clinically Oriented Anatomy.

Furthermore, if you really wanted to learn Islam then you would study it first, study it in detail and understand the full context of Sharia law and its precendents.

I don't blame you for the things that you say, purely because you have been subliminally indoctrinated although you would like to argue otherwise. If you sincerely care about human rights and the human race then it is your duty to learn and understand the creed, laws and system that 1.6 billion have signed up to.

If you are into films then I suggest you watch The Message, if you are into books I recommend Muhammad by Martin Lings - this would be a good starting point. You will not learn anything from teenagers here who don't even understand why they are Muslims and what it means to be a Muslim let alone its laws.

[ozymandias]

In my line of work I come across people like yourself on daily basis, as much I want to treat you as individual I can see a very visible pattern in your rhetoric, a pattern that all Islam bashers share in common!

It appears that you are simply stereotyping anyone that has criticisms, no matter how valid, into one type cast.

Please do not spread misinformation about me regarding your poor stereotyping.

It is very arrogant and ignorant of you to state that you want to 'improve Islam', Islam is not a man made religion that you could 'improve'.

But it is -- unless you are stating that these interpretations are all handed down from a god, and that the murder of innocent civilians is not just a man-made interpretation of Islam.

Additionally, the way members of Islam present it to the world can easily be improved -- terrorism is not a very good way to make converts.

Islam is a perfect religion, now you might say 'thats silly, Akbar only says that because he is biased' but if you study Islam the scientific/academic way, you will be surprised how detailed it is in every aspect i.e who would have thought that flies carry viruses and their antidotes? or the exact stages of embryo formation? infact Keith L Moore makes references to Quranic verses in his book Clinically Oriented Anatomy.

Furthermore, if you really wanted to learn Islam then you would study it first, study it in detail and understand the full context of Sharia law and its precendents.

Here you go assuming that I have made no study of these things again -- simply because I came to a separate conclusion than you did.

I don't blame you for the things that you say, purely because you have been subliminally indoctrinated although you would like to argue otherwise. If you sincerely care about human rights and the human race then it is your duty to learn and understand the creed, laws and system that 1.6 billion have signed up to.

Funny -- that is one of the reasons I have stated I am here -- to learn the 'people' side, and not just the 'book' side. Having clinical knowledge is one thing, seeing how other people in the world interpret and apply those facts is another.

If you are into films then I suggest you watch The Message, if you are into books I recommend Muhammad by Martin Lings - this would be a good starting point.

It *was* a good starting point, but it leaves out much of the detail that I am here trying to fill in.

You will not learn anything from teenagers here who don't even understand why they are Muslims and what it means to be a Muslim let alone its laws.

I disagree. I will learn about the teenagers, and the culture they live in and the interpretations they have on the rules. Knowing what the Koran says is all well and good, but that should not impact my life -- it is the beliefs of the followers that actually makes a difference in this world, and on my life. You are advocating that I only look at one aspect of what Islam is, and ignore any part of it that may be less than flattering. That's a simplistic look. A religion is not just what a book teaches, but includes what the followers believe.

Are you not the one that looks at the (illegal) acts of individuals from 'the west' and tries to discredit the government and policies of the west? At least when I look at the actions and beliefs of Muslims, I am only looking at those acts that they believe are justified and sanctioned, and not criminal acts discouraged by Islam. By your own logic, you should only be looking at the constitutions, the laws, and the declarations of the UN, and not the acts of a few criminal mercenaries. This analogy is vastly flawed, however, because in the case of 'the west' these acts are despised and criminal, and even the perpetrators know that -- so their actions are an even more poor reflection of the laws.

[akbarkhan]

Just ask Ahkbarkhan and Sangar -- they used hadiths to justify the murder of innocent people

Excuse me? Where and when?

[Nadir Shah]

In my line of work I come across people like yourself on daily basis, as much I want to treat you as individual I can see a very visible pattern in your rhetoric, a pattern that all Islam bashers share in common!

It is very arrogant and ignorant of you to state that you want to 'improve Islam', Islam is not a man made religion that you could 'improve'. Islam is a perfect religion, now you might say 'thats silly, Akbar only says that because he is biased' but if you study Islam the scientific/academic way, you will be surprised how detailed it is in every aspect i.e who would have thought that flies carry viruses and their antidotes? or the exact stages of embryo formation? infact Keith L Moore makes references to Quranic verses in his book Clinically Oriented Anatomy.

How is Islam a perfect religion? What exactly is a perfect religion? Even if Islam is a perfect religion, it is just a religion after all, a set of dogmas, mythological plagiraisms and Arabized morality.

I don't blame you for the things that you say, purely because you have been subliminally indoctrinated although you would like to argue otherwise. If you sincerely care about human rights and the human race then it is your duty to learn and understand the creed, laws and system that 1.6 billion have signed up to.

Malgariya, Is it just about numbers? 3/4th of the humanity is non-Moslem. Even among Moslems there are hidden Pagans and people who have massive doubts about their faith but cannot speak for the fear of prosecution or social stigma. And Islam and Human Rights! What an oxymoron.

If you are into films then I suggest you watch The Message, if you are into books I recommend Muhammad by Martin Lings - this would be a good starting point. You will not learn anything from teenagers here who don't even understand why they are Muslims and what it means to be a Muslim let alone its laws.

What then about Fitna and Ayan Hirsi Ali? Why dont you accord them the same respect as the makers of the Message. If their are non-Moslem admirers of Muhammad SAW and Islam, there are Moslems who do not consider Islam and Muhammad SAW the quintessential human icons.

[ozymandias]

Where was this?

*Multiple* places on the 'Death penalty for leaving Islam' threads.

So if someone drinks, Pre-marital sex, Takes interests you would still consider them a devoted Muslim?

First of all, religion is not an absolute. One can make mistakes and still be religious. They can make even serious mistakes, and still be religious, so that is a simple question to answer.

These are all cases where the people doing the actions know (presumably) that they are against their religion, however we are talking of people that think what they are doing is supported or even demanded by Islam, so these are all poor examples.

That is silly.

No more silly than you playing the 'No True Scotsman' card.

[ozymandias]

You are taking them out of context. But let's leave that out for now.

How is pointing out *exactly* what they stated 'out of context'? You stated that Islam and Muslims do not support killing innocent people, ever. I pointed out that some do. Not only is that the full context, based on your claim, the context does not matter. You made an absolute statement that Muslims *never* support killing innocents, and I provided a concrete counterexample -- and one from these very forums. This opens up a whole interesting can of worms -- I would love to watch you explain to these posters how they are not *really* Muslims, since they don't agree with your interpretation of your religion.

Well, It depends on the intentions. Same goes with them. They are on purpose killing civilians. They are aware of what they are doing. And you are here, calling them pure Muslims.

Sure, they are aware of what they are doing. They are doing exactly as their religion demands of them -- but that is not what I was pointing out. A man can have pre-marital sex and still be a Muslim, or a Christian. One mistake, even with full knowledge, does not reject you from a religion -- it just means you are flawed.

In the case of these people, however, they are not making a 'mistake' and violating their religious teachings -- they are doing exactly what they think their religion teaches them. How is that *any* different than a woman wearing a head scarf? She is only doing what she feels her religion calls her to do. Right or wrong, she believes it.

I'm not sure why you find this concept so difficult.

Let me ask you a question, If someone rapes your wife, shoots your child. What would you do? Have in a mind, In a country where there are NO JUSTICE SYSTEMS. And the people who have committed this crime, are people who have UNLAWFULLY(If you want to discuss if the USA lawfully invaded Afghanistan, Akbar khan I am sure will discuss this with you)but just know they have invaded.

Please don't change the topic like this. We were discussing the article about Muslims in *SOMALIA* killing people for watching soccer on TV. In *THIS SPECIFIC* case, there are no invaders. There are no Christians, or if there are, that is irrelevant to the story. People are being murdered regardless of their religion.

While your arguments might make *some* sense in the case of Afghanistan, we were not talking about that country for the time being. That said, assuming we *were* talking about Afghanistan, and *NOT* Islam, I would point out that citizenship is even easier to define than religious affiliation. I would also point out that it is one thing to take justice into your own hands, and it is another to attack innocent people, or suicide bomb, or bomb public spaces, or even ignore the guilty people entirely and take up terrorist attacks against innocent people that simply share a nationality with the presumed guilty.

Furthermore, don't whine about the lack of a justice system. That's part of 'not acting like barbarians'. Set one up -- that's part of why the US is *IN* Afghanistan, to help quell the civil unrest and establish a fair and just government and legal system.

What would you do to the invader? Smile and say give me justice when he does not merely give a crap about you or what just happened?

I am guessing since you are blurring the issues so much, you either have no retort to the fact that those Somalians were Muslim, or don't even realize that Islam has spread beyond your little country.

[/quote]

Better yet, They try to open Christian schools?[/QUOTE]

I would send my children to those schools. At least they exist and are based on a tried and true system of education. I would monitor what they teach, and I would take personal involvement in my children's lives and provide balance for all the religious teaching they receive. At least they would be getting something of an education. Since you are claiming that no justice system exists at all, it ought to be safe to assume that the educational system is even more poor. Combine that with the fact that Afghanistan has so many poor and poorly educated, that seems a fairly safe assumption. What I would *NOT* do is commit acts of terrorism, or try and violate basic human rights to free speech.

[ozymandias]

Because they meant in a way that has SPECIAL CONDITIONS associated with it.

They support murdering innocent people. No matter the special conditions, the core facts remain: I presented an example of Muslims (from this very forum), that support the murder of innocent people. As long as those core fact remain true, I have provided concrete examples of your belief that Muslims do not suppor tthe murder of innocents is naive and wrong.

I still stand by it.

Feel free to stand by it. It's still been proven wrong, no matter how much you stand by it. Standing by it does nothing. Feel free to prove to everyone how Sangar and Akbarkhan are not Muslim, though.

Once again, They do not support the death of innocent people.

Then why have *THEY* posted statements showing that they *DO*?

I know Akbar Khan and Sangar, They would not run around with an Ak47 shooting everyone on sight.

That does not matter -- no one is claiming that they are. I am simply pointing out that your claim that no Muslim would kill, or support the killing of, an innocent person is false. Whether they use an AK47, a stoning , or even the lethal injection, they support the murder of innocent people, and they have gone to great lengths to explain that not only does Islam excuse these murders, but supports and calls for them.

All I needed to show was Muslims supporting murder of innocent people to prove you wrong. I have done so.

There is only a special occasion where death is permitted, which is if he/she is a threat to the Muslim ummah.

Let's see. Is Sangar Muslim? Yes. Does he support murdering innocent people, ever? Yes. Does this provide a counter example to your claim? Yes. Does this prove your statement false? Yes.

That's as simple as I can make it.

If you want to get complicated, the terrorists only support killing innocent people only in special occasions. They even argue that they only support murder of innocents with the victim is a threat to the Muslim ummah, too. I think you either forget this fact, or ignore it.

If a man is doing all that, He might as well drop the Muslim tag. What difference is there between him being a Muslim and not being Muslim. When you proudly say you are a Muslim there is a responsibility that comes a long with it.

Sure, and that responsibility is to try and follow that religion, and to try and follow the teachings. Making a mistake, deliberate or accidental does not change the fact that they are trying.

There is a reasoning behind everything a Muslim does. A Muslimah does not wear a scarf because her religion just says so. She wears it cause she feels and understands there is something that comes with it, which is modesty. There is a reason why many ladies in the west are converting to Islam.

And the terrorist Muslims murder innocent people because they think that the innocents are violating or attacking their religion, and their religion and the 'virtues' it supports needs to be protected. They don't kill just because their religion calls them to, but because they support what they think it teaches.

How is this difficult for you to understand?

And that is what I call is extremism. I do not support it at all. As a Pashtana, Its not something I'd support.

Whether you support it or not, it is still something you should be morally obligated to address -- members of your religion committing horrific crimes in the name of your religion. You should not be simply turning your back on it and ignoring it.

That made me smirk a smile, the US is there to "build" a justice system. They are actually there cause Afghanistan is a country that possess trillions of dollars worth of mineral resources. They are not there to help us. Why dont they go help Somalia.

U.S. Aiding Somalia in Its Plan to Retake Its Capital - NYTimes.com

They are. You just ignore that fact. The US has been working in Somalia for quite some time. There are less terrorists and organized resistance in Somalia. Instead of organized groups of international terrorists, Somalia is plagued mainly by smaller, poorer, criminal groups and thus have fewer resources to attack with.

Somalian criminals can barely afford a handful of weapons and a boat, and are so disorganized they are typically either attacking people locally, or single boats too close to shore, rather than committing international acts of terrorism. Thus they are both a lower priority, and they are also less newsworthy. When a small time criminal in Somalia is arrested, it is no big deal, when the leader of an international terrorist organization is arrested, it makes the news.

[quote]

Why did Alexander the great invade Afghanistan?(He failed too, read my sig)
Why did USSR Invade Afghanistan(They failed miserably as well)

Afghanistan actually had a sense of peace, Yes it was not perfect. But no doubt it was working for improvement, Now? No thanks to our very own American they are being pushed to the stone age.

Just last week Americans attacked a wedding and killed 50-60 people. Now you tell me, what kind of nonsense justice is that?


Again, like I clarified above. I AM AGAINST INNOCENT DEATHS! I do not consider them Muslim.

[quote]

And, as I have pointed out, you are wrong.

Explain "True" system of Education.

The phrase is 'tried and true'.

tried-and-true: Definition from Answers.com
(trīd'ən-trū')
adj.
Tested and proved to be worthy or good.

Tested and proved to be worthy or reliable, as in Let me deal with it--my method is tried and true. [Mid-1900s]

Meaning #1: tested and proved to be reliable
Synonyms: tested, time-tested, tried

In this context, the phrase "tried and true system of education" means simply that it is a well established system of education, and has been used for many, many years, in many, many cultures and countries. It dates back *at least* to Plato and ancient Greece, as the term for the modern educational system, 'academia' is based on a Greek word 'akedemeia' which was used to refer to an established school at that time. I vaguely recall that the Chineese even used this system of education in the 20th century BCE -- so this system of education is 22,000+ years old, and while it has faced minor changes, the basic system has withstood the test of time.

While the historical lessons may have had different content and methods, a system of gathering students to be taught by a central teach, who in turn was formally educated on the topics they teach, and is reviewed by fellow teachers for delivery method and content is uniform.

The more modern systems, say for the last 2,000+ years, has also included a peer review and course selection, where the topics taught are selected as acedemically relevant and taught to a pattern tied to a larger whole than a single class or collection of students.

[ozymandias]

Pakistani lawyer petitions for death of Mark Zuckerberg ? The Register

Yet another Muslim making the news. At least this time they are not *completely* taking the law into their own hands. Still a ridiculous case.

On the plus side, the fact that the Pakistani UN rep is asking that it be escalated to the UN court shows that at least one person in this article has some common sense and doesn't want to see this go forward.

[ozymandias]

^They are probably asking for an extradition.

Right -- and I would hope that the UN Rep would be smart enough that the UN would *NEVER* extradite someone to a country with the death penalty for exercising the UN's own universal rights.

That doesn't even bring up the fact that Zuckerberg simple founded/invented FaceBook -- and has *nothing* to do with the content that users place on it.

Charging Zuckerberg would be like charging Admin Khan for a comment *you* made.

[ozymandias]

No it does not remain. When you take out the special conditions. You are taking them out of context. Again, If someone is causing danger to the Muslim ummah by terrorist or violent means, How is he innocent?

By the merit of not having committed a crime, they are innocent. By the merit of being protected by basic human rights, they are innocent.

If you are going to start using your religion to define this man as guilty of a death penalty-worthy crime, you lose all ability to argue that no other Muslims can do the same. If you use Islam to justify the murder of one that most would see as 'innocent' how can you argue that these Somalian's cannot do *EXACTLY* the same thing?

Sangar and Akbar khan are devoted Muslims whom have provided there stances on our discussion here.

Then why are you claiming that they are not Muslim? You have stated *repeatedly* that the willingness to murder an innocent person means you, by *your* definition, cannot be Muslim.

Can you show me where? I asked you several times to show me where Akbar Khan and Sangar support INNOCENT KILLING and all I got in return was a fallacy of composition.

Death penalty for leaving Islam discussion. - Page 2 - worldwide Pashtun community

I only bothered to find the first instance. Read that thread -- their position is made *very* clear, repeatedly.

Again, The Muslim worlds reaction is very simple and straight-forward if you think about it. They want to be integrate, but simply ask people to respect them...

I'll agree with you -- *if* you restate that they are *demanding* special treatment, and not merely asking for it.

Where? Once again, As believers of the Holy Quran if someone is going to mock our religion. Expect a rebuttal, perhaps a fierce one.

I have repeatedly pointed out Sangar and Akbarkhan.

Again, I admit you are knowledgeable but you have yet to back up your claims. Show me where a Muslim supports INNOCENT killing.

I have repeatedly pointed out Sangar and Akbarkhan.

Islam says, Saving one person is like saving Humanity.

Terrorists are a complete different ball game, I doubt you want to get into that. For you to call someone a terrorist, You must be biased toward a certain side. Like they say, One mans freedom fight is another mans terrorist, Right?

Who says that? I have *REPEATEDLY* shown how that statement is false *BY THE DEFINITIONS* of the words. Freedom fighters are a military organization. Terrorists are not. Period.

Again, Terrorism and Islam have no correlation at all. They support what they think with a logical reason. They dont just pick up an Ak47 for no reason.

And this is part of the problem. Until you admit that these **** are part of Islam, how can you root them out?

Hell, how can you be upset when the world looks at Islam and sees the bloody, brutal people acting it it's name, and then look at you refusing to even admit there is a problem?

In Afghanistan, The Taliban kill Americans for a reason. They have a reason for it. They consider them conquerors. They consider the war unjust(without any proof)Afghans had NOTHING to do with 9/11.

May I ask you the same.


Once again. I admit they are horrible people who are SPIES and are using our religion for a political too. They do not represent Islam at all.

Are you kidding me? Most of the Al-Qaeda camps are in Somalia.

How am I wrong?

You just admitted that Sangar is a Muslim. By your own admission at least some Muslims support the murder of innocents.

Ok. I agree.

Muslims also have advanced institutions like you mentioned above. Unfortunately Afghanistan was working on advancing until our beloved USA realized they were getting poorer, and poorer.

What did they do? They decided to chase the mineral rich Afghanistan.