Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

It´s actually the religion of submission, hence it´s name. That doesn´t really entail peace.

It has to meanings: Peace and Submission. We submit to our Creator. We are peaceful towards our fellow human being, even if they deny His Existence.

[ozymandias]

^
If you read my posts I have never ever stripped a terrorist from calling himself or herself a Muslim.

Sorry -- with the number of posters that were doing just that, I am having a tough time keeping all the posters straight.

I am just saying that their actions or reactions don't reflect Islam itself.

Nor am I -- but I am also saying that they can still be Muslim, even if they do an evil thing. Many here disagree with me on that. They are playing the 'No True Scotsman' card on anyone that does evil is not Muslim.

I am not playing the victim. I am in the fore-front of trying to show the other side of my beautiful faith. A faith that has been hijacked by "Muslims" who use Islam for their own political agendas.

I think we see each other more eye-to-eye than you think. I am trying to show the dark side of your faith to those that are refusing to admit that Islam can be hijacked -- they turn their backs on the evil done in the name of their faith, and pretend it is not being done.

Unfortunately, my approach is slow and tedious because I don't have the Western media helping me to promote the real face of Islam. The real face of Islam will not sell in the Western public. It is too boring.

;-)

Some of us in the 'West' know the face you are talking about, and support your efforts.

Keep up the good fight.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Thank you for your refreshing post. It means a lot.

[ozymandias]

Let´s see, those western countries as you call them as in the vast minority of countries with those laws. Note that similar genocide denial (or even the reverse, genocide awareness) laws exist in the world, just look at Turkey, a muslim majority country.

I actually sat down and looked up some of these laws, and would like to share what I found:


Austria:
"As an amendment to § 3 g., whoever denies, grossly plays down, approves or tries to excuse the National Socialist genocide or other National Socialist crimes against humanity in a print publication, in broadcast or other media."

Basically a law against false education and downplaying the *CRIMINAL* acts of the holocaust.

Belguim
"Whoever, in the circumstances given in article 444 of the Penal Code denies, grossly minimises, attempts to justify, or approves the genocide committed by the German National Socialist Regime during the Second World War shall be punished by a prison sentence of eight days to one year, and by a fine of twenty six francs to five thousand francs."

Same deal -- basically an educational law.

Czech Republic:

"The person who supports or spreads movements oppressing human rights and freedoms or declares national, race, religious or class hatred or hatred against other group of persons will be punished by prison from 1 to 5 years.... § 261 The person who publicly declares sympathies with such a movement mentioned in § 260, will be punished by prison from 6 months to 3 years."

I actually support this law. Any attempt to repress human rights *should* be a criminal act -- but *NOT* the support of such a movement.

France:
"Art 9. – As an amendment to Article 24 of the law of July 29, 1881 on the freedom of the press, article 24 (a) is as follows written: <<Art. 24 (a). - those who have disputed the existence of one or more crimes against humanity "

Again, an educational law prohibiting the misinformation about crimes that have been deemed 'true' -- these are specific instances of a crime that people have been charged with.

Reading through these laws, the vast majority of them are the same -- it is illegal to deny the existence and perpetration of *CONVICTED* crimes against humanity.

I do not actually support most of these -- I do like the law against violating human rights -- but not outlawing the support of people that do so.

In fact, I dislike most of these laws, as they infringe on universal human rights -- but to be fair the vast majority are not about denying that the holocaust existed, they are about TEACHING that the holocaust did not exist (as a specific example of a crime against humanity).

It is also very interesting to note that every country that has one of these laws was smack in the middle of WW2.

It was also interesting to see that only a very small number of these laws has ever been enforced -- and only in relatively few countries -- France, Germany, Switzerland, and Austria.

Let's look at some more of the exact laws that have caused convictions:
Switzerland:
"Whoever publicly, by word, writing, image, gesture, acts of violence or any other manner, demeans or discriminates against an individual or a group of individuals because of their race, their ethnicity or their religion in a way which undermines human dignity, or on those bases, denies, coarsely minimizes or seeks to justify a genocide or other crimes against humanity [...] shall be punished with up to three years imprisonment or a fine.[41]"

Funny -- this also applies to causes supported around here....

[ozymandias]

Thank you for your refreshing post. It means a lot.

I think I need to work on my communication skills -- I see many people eye to eye on many issues -- just few people agree with me on all the issues.

I am working hard to improve this -- I think that working together we can at least understand each other better -- if not agree with them.

I am of the opinion that the world is what it is -- and we have to either learn to love it warts and all, or work to correct what we do not agree with -- and we cannot improve the flaws if we refuse to acknowledge they exist.

I'll state it again, since I seem to give the false impression:

I am no more against Islam than I am any religion. I make an effort to *never* try to convert a person from their religion, or way of life -- I simply try to help them see their way of life in a broader, more full sense, and let themselves decide what to do with the increased knowledge.

I am equally happy when a person leaves a discussion with me stronger in their faith, or converted to my way. The only time I leave a discussion unhappy is when I have not made any impact.

Be proud of your faith! Defend your faith! Spread your faith! Regardless of what that faith is! *BUT* most importantly of all *KNOW* your faith. Not just the parts you like. Not *JUST* the parts you are proud of. Know the good things, but do not ignore the bad. Do not just be ashamed of the bad -- try and remove the bad. Try to convert the bad. Try to correct the bad.

I am an avid supporter of free speech, and I firmly believe that as a world, as long as we are willing to address the bad, correct the evil, solve the problem, make the effort, free speech and open education will solve these problems.

[imb706]

I went to a Muhammad image portal, and I found Vilks drawings. I think they were pretty good and it only shows muslims intolerance when they got angry over them. Vilks should certainly be commended.

Anyway, on to the response:

It has to meanings: Peace and Submission. We submit to our Creator. We are peaceful towards our fellow human being, even if they deny His Existence.

So you submit to an authority and wants others too, again not peace, submission. No better time than now than to recite the old American saying: No Gods, No Masters.

Islam must certainly is not peaceful to its neighbors, it´s a war mongering religion with a bloody saber in its hands. Are all muslims like that? Of course not? Are a lot? Unfortunately, yes.

My point is that we should not deny the truth.

Sure, we shouldn´t, but you cannot and shouldn´t even force people to accept the truth. Society should teach the truth yes, but its up to the individual on what he wants to accept.

Islam certainly is not the truth though, so don´t be going on crusades for ¨the truth¨ because Islam would be vanqueshed then.

Those who deny the truth are upsetting people who know what the truth is. It is a fact that Turkey killed many Armenians and Greeks. Why are Armenians and Greeks upset at Turkey? Because Turkey is denying it.

Well, it´s not really a matter of truth or not, while the genocide certainly is true, it´s more about the fact that Turkey won´t owe up to its past crimes, and its not like people are asking for reparations or what not, they just want to to say, yeah its a bad part of our history. Of course, if it was just fabricated and people believed it, theyd be pushing for the same kind of recognition, but thats besides the point.

We Muslims know the true face of Islam and the real character of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw).

No, you have your own version of a legend of yours thats applicable to you, but it shouldn´t be accepted as the truth, since it really isn´t.

I was never taught violence as a child. I was also told to be patience and forbearing. In my life my role model is Hadhrat Muhammad (saw).

Whenever I do something, I always keep his (saw) tradition in mind. I would be more than glad to show you what he (saw) told Muslims. You will not see any encouragement from his part to cause disorder to society. In fact, he (saw) totally against societal disorder.

Rather generic role model but okay, I can roll with that.

The image that the West is portraying of Islam is wrong. It is upsetting. We want to them to put limits on "freedom of speech." How could something be freedom of speech when you are attacking a person who is dear to 1/4 of the worlds population.

Exactly the reason people think Islam is backwards and oppressive, it can´t handle criticism so it wants to forbid it. Insane, and since Islam and muslims have no real voice in modern society, at least the conservative right wing bully ones, they can´t get their way. So they resort to pathetic terrorism.

Many people have come and gone in history. Their names are only preserved in books. Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) appeared over 1430 years ago. Yet, he is still living in the homes of every single Muslim. Muslims show their love for him by walking in his footsteps. If he truly taught us to be violent and savage, you would see all Muslims' reaction the same. Unfortunately for the few who have realize that religion is a means to control people and have used his beautiful character to entice unsuspecting ignorant Muslims towards their own political agendas.

Yeah, but he didn´t exist. He´s a fairy tale XD. I mean itś a gibberish fairy tale, to me that is. And that´s the point. Muslims want blasphemy (which by the way, to them is questioning islamic ¨history¨) to be banned.

I never said to deny the Holocaust. I said to call a spade a spade. Call Islamic terrorists terrorists, but don't say that it is a reflection of Islam itself and its holy founder!

Well, no, not outright, which I made clear, but you said the laws are stupid. Then you go on and on about limiting free speech when it comes to Islam. I´m only connecting the dots here.

I´m not calling all muslims terrorist, but if I wanted too, I could. I can call Muhammad the founder of terrorism if I wanted too.

I don't associate myself with what Saudi schools teach. Unfortunately, because Saudi Arabia is where the two holiest sites of Islam are, many innocent and unsuspecting Muslims fall for their preaching and agendas against the West. Many Muslims don't live in modern urban areas. They are simple and good hearted people. A lot of money is being spent by Saudi Arabia to spread their ideology around the globe by using simple minded Muslims as tools.

Okay, fair enough, you don´t agree with the Saudis. Fine, but then don´t in the next breath say Islam cannot be criticized but the Holocaust can be denied when that´s the Saudi M.O.

You get my point.

Yeah, and since Muslims don´t write our laws thankfully, the point is mute.

Well, according to the Holy Quran, you are not compelled to follow religion. So do as you please, sir.

Sure, some muslims interpret it as that, but even among those, they want Islam to be the political estalishment, and blasphemers and apsotates killed.

Why are you accusing me of something false? When did I deny the Holocaust?

Lol, I never said you did. I was just talking about the opinion you said you had on holocaust denial. You think the laws are stupid, yet want cartoons banned, lol what a warped mindset.

For a second stop thinking that I cannot possibly be right. Read what I am writing. I am not here for a debate. I am here to clear up misconceptions. If I am wasting my time with you, then please let me know. I do not wish to waste your time.

You´re doing a terrible job then since the point that´s being made here is that Islam wants to censor and stifle free speech. You flat out admit it. So what misconceptions are you trying to eliminate?

No, it is not, dear friend. So many people from different religions do bad things today. However, Muslims are the only ones who are labeled as problems due to the teachings of Islam itself.

Well, I´d almost agree with you if the fact that Islam wasn´t the biggest religion in terms of international terrorism. Yes, there´s hindu and Christian terrorist, and even a few Jewish terrorist. Sikh terrorist too but even Hindu ones pale in comparison to Islamic terror.

Again, please stop taking things out of context. You know what I mean.

Typical religionist response when you don´t agree or dispute something about them. Just taking it out of context...

Millions? Please don't take me for an idiot. Entire governments? I am guessing you are not well in-tuned with present day politics?

What, you´re just going to deny it again? Durr, thatś the religious response usually...when they aren´t promoting the behavior.

Yep, Saudi Arabia doesn´t count as a nation. Neither does Iran. Hamas obviously doesn´t really govern the Palestinian areas under its control, and Sudan has not funded terrorism before. I guess Hezbollah has no influence in Lebanon. Yeah, no entire governments I guess. That Muslim Brotherhood? Nah, no influence. Haha...

XD

I am glad you responded as such. It goes to show, that you purposely try to find information to suit your needs. I suggest you start using 'google' to to find this information. The same tool you use to find things against Islam.

Um, at the optimistic best, that´s pot calling the kettal black. Were not you the one who told me to read Islamic writers books on Muhammads historocity (ficitional by the way, and the Qu´ran, like the Bible is just terrible literature)? The Bible says ¨You hypocrites who do not see the beam in your own eyes¨ so there, I´ve given you some religious instruction showing you the error of your ways. Hopefully it works.

I hope your sincere research will lead you to change this comment one day.

So they´re not? Again, I like that bible quote on hypocrisy here.

You know it's true. You don't care about truth. Debating seems to be a game for you.

Yet again, a pseudo-witty comeback doesn´t make for a bullet-proof response. Come on, put some effort into it if you want to stomp on peoples freedoms.

We Muslims only care about the Holy Prophet (saw) not any other legend.

Yeah, but Muhammad is a legend.

Austria:
"As an amendment to § 3 g., whoever denies, grossly plays down, approves or tries to excuse the National Socialist genocide or other National Socialist crimes against humanity in a print publication, in broadcast or other media."

Basically a law against false education and downplaying the *CRIMINAL* acts of the holocaust.

Belguim
"Whoever, in the circumstances given in article 444 of the Penal Code denies, grossly minimises, attempts to justify, or approves the genocide committed by the German National Socialist Regime during the Second World War shall be punished by a prison sentence of eight days to one year, and by a fine of twenty six francs to five thousand francs."

Same deal -- basically an educational law.

Czech Republic:

"The person who supports or spreads movements oppressing human rights and freedoms or declares national, race, religious or class hatred or hatred against other group of persons will be punished by prison from 1 to 5 years.... § 261 The person who publicly declares sympathies with such a movement mentioned in § 260, will be punished by prison from 6 months to 3 years."

I actually support this law. Any attempt to repress human rights *should* be a criminal act -- but *NOT* the support of such a movement.

France:
"Art 9. – As an amendment to Article 24 of the law of July 29, 1881 on the freedom of the press, article 24 (a) is as follows written: <<Art. 24 (a). - those who have disputed the exist

Thanks for posting the exact laws, though I don´t see the purpose. I count four nations. They´re 27 in the EU alone, and only one on that list is influential, and as far as I know, hasn´t used it´s influence to spread these laws, so okay, what´s the point? What´s the point in bringing up holocaust denial anyway, is that supposed to engender sympathy for your crusade against people just trying to voice criticism and hell, probably have fun until they realized muslims wanted to kill them?

Again, an educational law prohibiting the misinformation about crimes that have been deemed 'true' -- these are specific instances of a crime that people have been charged with.

Reading through these laws, the vast majority of them are the same -- it is illegal to deny the existence and perpetration of *CONVICTED* crimes against humanity.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I was well aware of that. Cartoons are not crimes agianst humanity. If you think so, you are really full of yourself and self-righteous.

I do not actually support most of these -- I do like the law against violating human rights -- but not outlawing the support of people that do so.

You want to violate human rights though, so you´re not very comitted to them.

In fact, I dislike most of these laws, as they infringe on universal human rights -- but to be fair the vast majority are not about denying that the holocaust existed, they are about TEACHING that the holocaust did not exist (as a specific example of a crime against humanity).

Again, duh, thats what David Irving was arrested for. I do agree with laws that prevent textbooks and such from portraying obviously falsehoods, like holocaust denial and creationism, but I´m not against people publishing books saying the holocaust didn´t happen. I´m not for holocaust denial laws.

It is also very interesting to note that every country that has one of these laws was smack in the middle of WW2.

It was also interesting to see that only a very small number of these laws has ever been enforced -- and only in relatively few countries -- France, Germany, Switzerland, and Austria.

Um, yeah, I already stated this. Thanks yet again for stating the obvious.

Let's look at some more of the exact laws that have caused convictions:
Switzerland:
"Whoever publicly, by word, writing, image, gesture, acts of violence or any other manner, demeans or discriminates against an individual or a group of individuals because of their race, their ethnicity or their religion in a way which undermines human dignity, or on those bases, denies, coarsely minimizes or seeks to justify a genocide or other crimes against humanity [...] shall be punished with up to three years imprisonment or a fine.[41]"

Funny -- this also applies to causes supported around here....

This isn´t helping you case.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

imb706,

To you your way, to me mine.

[ozymandias]

IThis isn´t helping you case.

Funny -- I am on your side here, regarding these laws ;-)

Next time look at the name of the poster ;-)

[ozymandias]

imb706,

To you your way, to me mine.

And that is my unwavering belief I hold most dear.

To me, mine -- not yours, nor anyone else's.

[imb706]

Here´s what the head of the Muslim Council of Britian said:

¨
Do you believe that novelists have an absolute right to mock religion without being threatened? Theodore Groves, Slough
Yes, I believe they should have the right to mock beliefs, but they are not obliged to do so. In any case, no one should be subjected to threats of violence. If anyone mocks our deeply held beliefs as opposed to critiquing them in a civil manner, then I think the best way to respond would be to ignore them and carry on with our work. Let the value of our beliefs be demonstrated by our own example of the way in which we lead our lives.¨

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/dr-muhammad-abdul-bari-you-ask-the-questions-398205.html

Well, even some right wing muslims agree with me.

I´d agree with your sentiment if you didn´t want to take my free speech away. What´s next, religious studies should be in public schools? XD

[imb706]

It means submission, which is usually antithetical to peace.

[ozymandias]

It means submission, which is usually antithetical to peace.

To be fair, it depends on which side of the submission you are on. If everyone submits to your will, you have no need to attack....

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I´d agree with your sentiment if you didn´t want to take my free speech away. What´s next, religious studies should be in public schools? XD

No one is taking your freedom of speech away from you. Lying is not 'freedom of speech.' Actually, no, I believe that religion should be left the religious edifices.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

It means submission, which is usually antithetical to peace.

Americas support for Israel is not peace

[imb706]

Americas support for Israel is not peace

Thanks again for a red herring. That´s really all I should with you, point out your trolling attempts.

To be fair, it depends on which side of the submission you are on. If everyone submits to your will, you have no need to attack....

How would you achieve that? Conquest and forced submission of course, I mean it´s what the legends of Muhammad and other muslim figures did. Of course there´s no chance of this happening nowadays, but that idea is still engrained in much of the religion. The figure of Muhammad was a brutal terrorist in fact. He makes biblical figures seem nice.

No one is taking your freedom of speech away from you.

Im well aware of that, I said you want to take it from me, not that you are. If you came into my place and actually tried, Id punch you in the face XP

Lying is not 'freedom of speech.'

Sure it is. I can lie about the size of my body for example if I wanted too and no law against that. In a court room, where only objective facts are supposed to be presented, I cant lie if it means perjury, but that is not private or even public everyday life. Bad bad example there.

Actually, no, I believe that religion should be left the religious edifices.

I agree, religion should have no place in politics or public life, it should be strictly personal. That´ś generally the idea followed in modern society.

Jamie,
Islam promotes peace.

It certainly shows around the world.

There would be so many things banned if we followed this concept of censoring for Muslims. For example, Dantes Inferno would be banned because it has Muhammad being sliced open in it, and the Supreme Court Building would have to be destroyed for having a statue of Muhammad in it.