Shia Islam for Dummies: Ask Those who Know

[Abu Hurayrah]

I wrote on ur walll buddy... read it up... If u cant better go 2 specsavers
stop dodging the questions which btw were posted b4 this thread was made.... i do not believe in sects such as sunni or shia ( the modern meaning )
rather I support Imam Alis calim 2 caliphate.... as did his SHIA (SUPPORTERS)

If Ali (ra) was alive, he would not even look at you. Did you know what the ''supporters of Ali'' did? They betrayed him, they betrayed his sons at Kufa, and also, your supporters of Ali betrayed at fought against Ali at the battle of Siffin, when the Khawaarij where born. Get your history right.

Ali (ra) himself gave 2 times Bayya for Abu Bakr Sadiq (ra). The only reason he was not satisfied with what had happened before the majlis of Saqifa, he did not ever make a claim on the khilaafah.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Yaara da yo takkay de zda kare da "dodging" aw nor da kaar na ye LOL. I answered your question, I didn't "dodge" it I don't think I need to answer those questions as it has nothing to do with "beliefs" or anything. AW bal da che mo sara har yo ALIF BE question dapara time nishta, sa poishwe?

Its has everything to do with beliefs. Your beliefs must be founded on some sort of scrpiture or at least opinion of scholars who have creates shi'ism. You cant just claim to be shi'a and say stuff that are in total contradiction to what most prominent shi'ite scholars have written.

In case you dont know, we recently had a Qadiani here who was precisely like you. He avoided questions and would make false statements about Qadianism.

Don't tell me you are not any better than the Qadiani.

So come on. Chop chop! Answer my question. If don't have any thing to hide, why would you be ignoring my questions.

If the truth is with Shi'ites, then why hide it? Don't you want to guide us, your "fellow muslim" brethren to find the straight path?

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

Its has everything to do with beliefs. Your beliefs must be founded on some sort of scrpiture or at least opinion of scholars who have creates shi'ism. You cant just claim to be shi'a and say stuff that are in total contradiction to what most prominent shi'ite scholars have written.

In case you dont know, we recently had a Qadiani here who was precisely like you. He avoided questions and would make false statements about Qadianism.

Don't tell me you are not any better than the Qadiani.

So come on. Chop chop! Answer my question. If don't have any thing to hide, why would you be ignoring my questions.

If the truth is with Shi'ites, then why hide it? Don't you want to guide us, your "fellow muslim" brethren to find the straight path?

"CHOP CHOP" You will be ignored from now on, enjoy the iggy-bin.

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

Dear Haider.
Welcome to Pashtun Forums. I firstly want to welcome you here. It makes me happy to have a Shia here. I always wanted to learn about Shiaism.

1)How many Pashtun Shias exist?
2)Why do shia's hate Umar (ra), when Ali (ra) gave his daughter as marriage to him?

Dear GoPashtunGo, thanks for the welcome, you seem like a nice guy to chat with.
Dear brother, there are hundreds of thousands of Shia Pashtuns. Let me start off by giving the names of the Pashtun tribes that have significant Shia population in them.
1) Turi Tribe: Based in Kurram Agency, this Pashtun tribe is 100% Shia. You won't find a single Sunni or non-Shia Pashtun in this tribe.
2) Bangash Tribe: As you may see, I belong to this tribe, and I would say about 50% of this Pashtun tribe is Shia population. The Shia Bangashes are mainly located in areas such as Hangu, Kohat, The Hangu-Kohat-Orakzai Border areas, Parachinar, and some other parts of Kurram Agency. The Sunni Bangashes are mainly located in Southern Kurram Agency and the Tall area and also in Hangu, and also in Kohat. I think that's about it.
3) Orakzai Tribe: I would say about 20-30% of this Pashtun tribe is Shia population. The Shia Orakzais are mainly based in South Orakzai Areas such as Kalaya, Zera, Sepoih, etc. That's the only Shia Pashtuns that I personally know of. I don't know if any other Pashtun tribes have shia population in them.

I will respond to your second question later as it requires a lot of referencing and detailed explanations. Thanks.

[Abu Hurayrah]

Please refer to my this post, for my take on the above Aya. I posted the Aya to prove a point about Imamat, that the authority of Imamat is above the authority of messengerhood.

Imamat as a concepot does NOT exsist in the QUR'AN. The fact that you find a word ''imam'' ie. leader in an aya does not clarify anything about a concept of 12 imams with devine attributes which people pray to, and see as infallible creatures with the siffaat of Allah. This aqeeda which you are propagating under the umbrella of ''imamat' in the qur'an
is totally false.

How can they all become Imams? Please do post the AYAT NUMBER when posting a reference to Quran.

68: And those who invoke not any other ilâh (god) along with Allâh, nor kill such life as Allâh has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment

69: The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace;

70:Except those who repent and believe (in Islâmic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds, for those, Allâh will change their sins into good deeds, and Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful[].

71:And whosoever repents and does righteous good deeds, then verily, he repents towards Allâh with true repentance.

72:And those who do not witness falsehood, and if they pass by some evil play or evil talk, they pass by it with dignity.

73:And those who, when they are reminded of the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord, fall not deaf and blind thereat.

Surah 25/74

And those who say: "Our Lord! Bestow on us from our wives and our offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and make us leaders for the Muttaqûn" (pious - see V.2:2 and the footnote of V.3:164)."

Well, they can become imams of the pious by having taqwa and by not transgressing the ahkaam of Allah and his Shari'a. Passing by evil talk with dignity, not witnessing falsehood, if they don't fall deaf or blind when hearing the ayaat and the revelations, and verses of the Qur'aan, the one that repents and does righteous deeds etc., I posted the aya's before also to clarify the context of the aya.

How did I take aya out of context? Check my reply again, the word Imam there does indeed mean IMAM (LEADER!). It doesn't mean "road" or "scripture" or whatever else you say Imam means. In that particular aya, the word IMAM there means LEADER. If not you tell me what it means. Let me put in simple terms for you, apparently you are not getting anything I say: In that AYA, Allah gave the munsabat of Imamat to Hazrat Ibraheem (AS), and then Hazrat Ibrahim(AS) asks Allah to also make Imams from his OFFSPRING. And Hazrat Muhammad(SAW) wa ALE Muhammad(SAW) are among his offspring.

Again, a leader, or imam does not mean a concept of 12 shia imams with devine attributes. And don't repeat yourself, in the particular aya , Ibrahim alayhisalam asks Allah to excuse his offspring, but Allah answers that his covenant is not for the evildoers, but it is for righteous people. read the tafsir.

Let me put in simple terms for you, apparently you are not getting anything I say: In that AYA, Allah gave the munsabat of Imamat to Hazrat Ibraheem (AS), and then Hazrat Ibrahim(AS) asks Allah to also make Imams from his OFFSPRING. And Hazrat Muhammad(SAW) wa ALE Muhammad(SAW) are among his offspring.
""ZIKR E ALI UuN IBADAH." Now these certainly not the qualities of "wrongdoers" because that's what you were IMPLYING by highlighting the last part of the aya.

Dhikr e Ali is Ibaadah? Where is your prove from the Qur'aan and Sunnat? This is a very important issue, because you are spamming here with this creed and talking about a subject, not a minor subject, you are talking about IBAADAH and telling us that dhikr e Ali is Ibaadah. There is general qaa'idah in Islaam and that is:

- For every act in the Aqeedah, and in particular in Ibaadah, there should be prove from the Qur'aan and Sunnah. If there is no prove, then it is an innovation, and every innovation leads to the hell fire.

The fact that you are attributing sifaat of Allah to your imams , I will ignore for a moment, before it gets too much for you.

"Some scholars say " blah blah, I don't believe in these scholar, history is not their miraas, so give me references.

The prophet (s.a.w) did not name them. I named six of them, and that is an opinion of a group of scolars. And the scolars are the heirs of Prophets, so do not act like it is nothing and control you mouth. I suppose in shi'ism you do not respect your scholars?
You don't have a concept of Ijmaa'? I guess you don't, every shia is a religious rambo and does not need a scolar. It may be that the remaining did not pass, because according to Ahl us Sunnat , the Mahdi is not amongst us (identified), maybe he is born, maybe he isn't, allahu a'lam. But it is nothing like the shia version, of a man hiding in a cave somewhere in Samarra.

when you can't even give me their names or prove their relationship with Ali (AS)?

This is another example of your strange answers, where in the Hadith does it say the twelve rulers will be related to Ali (ra)? Where? It says they will be from Quraysh, but not the lineage of Ali (ra). The only clear thing in the hadith is that the last of them will be a man from the progeny of Muhammad (s.a.w.) and he only will be thus, the lineage of the daughter of the prophet and Ali (ra). That is the only thing that can be derived from the particular hadith.

I said that Imam Cannot be ZAALIM (cruel, or ever been kaffir in past life) and this Aya proves that.

I guess your hastiness resulted in something which does not work out for you, the fact that there is no concept of ''ímaamat'' in the Qur'aan proves that, the result of misinterpretation done by you of an aya is that you contradict other ayaat , like this one:

''Faqaatilu a'emmatal Kufre'' Surah Tawbah (imams , ie. Leaders of Kufr).

The most funny thing is, the prayer is mentioned a hundred times in the Qur'aan, zakaat, even the details and the wudhu is mentioned in full detail. But why not anything on imaamat? Which is a fundament in shia believe?

- Imaamat is a neccessary fundament in shi'ism, whitout believing in imaamat , a person is a non muslim according to shi'as. So how is it possible that the prayer which according to shi'as is just a ''Furu-e din'' (subsidiary and secondary part of religion and 'imaamat'' which is a Usul e din mentioned ZERO times? Why not an aya which states ''Ya ayyuhal mu'minun, there will come after him (Muhammad) 12 shia imams, follow them till the Mahdi comes out''

Produce just 1 evidence on imamat in the quran and I will become a shia. No comedy factory and playing with ayaat and word games, but in simple words, Imamat is your USUL e DIN, show me 1 evidence from the Qur'an. Because according to your holy imams, 90 % of the Muslims are kufaar, because they dont believe in this concept. with all respect.

Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (AS)
Imam Hassan Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali (AS)
Imam Hussain Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali (AS)
Imam Ali Ibn Al HussaiN (AS) -> Son Of Hussain (AS)
Imam Muhammad Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali Ibn al HussaiN (AS)
Imam Jaffar Ibn Muhammad (AS) -> Son of Muhammad Ibn Ali (AS)
Imam Musa Ibn JAffar (AS) -> Son of Jaffar Ibn Muhammad ibn Ali (AS)
Imam Ali Ibn Musa (AS) -> Son of Musa Ibn Jaffar (AS)
Imam Muhammad Al Taqi Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali ibn Musa (AS)
Imam Ali Ibn Muhammad Al Taqi (AS) -> Son of Muhammad Al Taqi (AS)
Imam Hassan Al Askari Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali Ibn Muhammad Al Taqi (AS)
Imam Muhammad Al Mahdi Ibn Al Hassan (AS) -> Son of Imam Hassan Al Askari (AS)

These people where according to us, good and righteous people, although there is strong evidence that your 11th Imam, Al Askari (rah) was nmever born, so the chance of your Mahdi is also not very big, but if we reflect the shia books and ''narrations'' on them, then I won't say a word about them, because it would be according to me, gossip, and a strange whisper.

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

Imamat as a concepot does NOT exsist in the QUR'AN. The fact that you find a word ''imam'' ie. leader in an aya does not clarify anything about a concept of 12 imams with devine attributes which people pray to, and see as infallible creatures with the siffaat of Allah. This aqeeda which you are propagating under the umbrella of ''imamat' in the qur'an
is totally false.

Yaara kho, are you damn blind or what? Go back to the first few pages of this thread and show me where the hell I attributed "Siffaat of Allah" to Imams (AS)? Are you damn blind or what the hell is wrong with you? I am explaining the same thing to you 1000s of time, again and again.

And those who say: "Our Lord! Bestow on us from our wives and our offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and make us leaders for the Muttaqûn" (pious - see V.2:2 and the footnote of V.3:164)."

Well, they can become imams of the pious by having taqwa and by not transgressing the ahkaam of Allah and his Shari'a.

Yaar! Again you are stuck on that "imam" mean this part. I already you that okay Imam mean may have different meaning in different ayas! Do you comprehend that?! I freaking agree with you that Imam or any other word for that matter have different meaning in different ayas!!!!!!! Do you get it now or should I explain it to you in another language???? But the word "imam" in Surah Baqara 124 means "LEADER" in the context that it is used; it does not mean road or anything else. Then about the last part of the AYA I REPLIED:

And regarding the last part of the AYA, it further supports my claim of Imamat. How you may ask. I said that Imam Cannot be ZAALIM (cruel, or ever been kaffir in past life) and this Aya proves that. The last part of the aya is merely setting a standard for who an Imam can be. This last part was revealed so that tomorrow a ERA GHAYRA cannot claim the munsabat of Imamat. My Imams (AS) are among the best of Allah's creation with virtues such as "Al Hassan wal Hussain, Syedo Shababo Ehlel Janna" and "Hussain O Mini Wa Ana Minal Hussain" and ""ZIKR E ALI UuN IBADAH." Now these certainly not the qualities of "wrongdoers" because that's what you were IMPLYING by highlighting the last part of the aya.

Do you get what I said there or what yaar? You are making me upset now because I have to repeat the same thing 1000 times for you to understand.

Ibrahim alayhisalam asks Allah to excuse his offspring, but Allah answers that his covenant is not for the evildoers, but it is for righteous people. read the tafsir.

!!!!!!!, THIS IS THE AYA:
[Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.
[Pickthal 2:124] And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.
[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

SEE THE HIGHLIGHTED PARTS, Ibrahim (AS) is asking Allah to make Imams(AS) from his offspring!!! He(AS) did not ask for what you said "Ibrahim alayhisalam asks Allah to excuse his offspring" HE DIDN't ASK FOR EXCUSE, SEE THE ABOVE 3 DIFFERENT TRANSLATIONS!

And remember this Aya was revealed to Ibrahim(AS) before Ismail(AS) or Ishaq (AS) were born, so are you implying that offspring of Ibrahim(AS) including Ismail (AS) and IShaq (AS) were WRONDOERS? (Astaghfirulla)? Because that's the only meaning i can take from you BAAR BAAR UNDERLYING the last part of teh aya.

Dhikr e Ali is Ibaadah? Where is your prove from the Qur'aan and Sunnat?

This is Prophet's (SAW) narration, just listen to your own Mulla for what I said:
YouTube - 0-Zikr-e-Ali is a form of Ibada -Dr.Tahir-ul-Qadir

You talk a lot but give zero proof of what you say and never ever understand what I am freaking saying to you yaara.
Just refute the logic here, but don't post some random verses, because I am tired of explaining things to you. Refute my logic here.

The nature of your question is such that it requires extensive argument just to show what I am about to say. As you may know or not, but Allah has given more authority to some prophets (AS) over others as is evident from this Aya:
002.253 Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after Clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan. Surah Al Baqara 253
But since you asked the question in a YES/NO manner, then I shall answer in a YES/NO manner. I believe that Hazrat Muhammad(SAW) is supreme of all Prophets(AS) and Imams(AS) and that the Imams are higher in authority than the rest of the Prophets(AS) but not than Hazrat Muhammad (SAW); and there is a reason why I believe so.

The importance of Imamat can be seen in this Aya:

Quran 002.124 And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain Commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Let's analyze this Aya. First, Hazrat Ibraheem (AS) was made Imam only after he "fulfilled" more "commands". Wasn't He (AS) already a Prophet before this aya was revealed? Yes, he was. But to make him an Imam, he was tried with additional conditions. The aya implies that to become an Imam there are even more restrictions and conditions then are for prophethood. Now I ask you, why make Hazrat Ibrahim(AS) as an Imam when he already was a Prophet, a Nabi, a paighambar? It's because Imamat's authority is higher than messengerhood; if it wasn't then why would Allah say that He made Ibrahim (AS) an Imam when he already was a Nabi. So if Nabi(AS) is higher in authority then there is no need to become Imam right? Because it would be saying like your a manager in a store but because you have worked hard, I would make you a cashier or cook instead. Let me try to give an example, say you get commission in X Army, first you would a Lieutenant (Lt.). But after so many years of being with the army you will be PROMOTED to a captain (rank). Apply this logic to the above Ayat. But of course, that is Prophethood and not army. Not everyone gets promoted to a higher "rank" only those who Allah appoint/chosen by Allah. Now coming to the second part, Hazrat Ibrahim(AS) also asked for Imamat from descendants, and as you know Ale Muhammad (SAW) are His(AS) descendants.

[Dukemina]

Sorry to intrude in your lovely debate guys but I'm sure Tahir Ul Qadri is NOT his mullah lol...

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

The prophet (s.a.w) did not name them. This is another example of your strange answers, where in the Hadith does it say the twelve rulers will be related to Ali (ra)? Where? It says they will be from Quraysh, but not the lineage of Ali (ra). The only clear thing in the hadith is that the last of them will be a man from the progeny of Muhammad (s.a.w.) and he only will be thus, the lineage of the daughter of the prophet and Ali (ra). That is the only thing that can be derived from the particular hadith.

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura:
I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Muslim Book 020, Number 4478:

It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.


NOTE: The prophet (saw) ALL of the rulers will be from QURAISH not just Imam Mahdi (AS). Now see what you claimed above.

Abu Dawud Book 36, Number 4269:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If only one day of this world remained. Allah would lengthen that day (according to the version of Za'idah), till He raised up in it a man who belongs to me or to my family whose father's name is the same as my father's, who will fill the earth with equity and justice as it has been filled with oppression and tyranny (according to the version of Fitr). Sufyan's version says: The world will not pass away before the Arabs are ruled by a man of my family whose name will be the same as mine.



NOTE: The prophet(SAW) gave you the NAME. And here you are saying that he didn't name them?

the Mahdi is not amongst us (identified), maybe he is born, maybe he isn't, allahu a'lam. But it is nothing like the shia version, of a man hiding in a cave somewhere in Samarra.

Touba Naozbillah So hazrat Isa(AS) too is hiding in a cave? What makes you think that a God that can take Isa (AS) to heaven can't take Mahdi (AS) To heaven?

he result of misinterpretation done by you of an aya is that you contradict other ayaat , like this one:

''Faqaatilu a'emmatal Kufre'' Surah Tawbah (imams , ie. Leaders of Kufr).

So oh okay wait you are right, mashallah *sarcasm* so then tell me this must also mean "Leaders of Kufr" Astaghfirullah:
[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." Is this "imam" here, "imam of kufr" too? Astaghfirulla? Or what?
I guess you are the one contradicting yourself. If there is no "concept of imamat" in Quran then what does Allah mean when he said to Ibrahim "I make you Imam" of the people? What did Allah mean by that?

The most funny thing is, the prayer is mentioned a hundred times in the Qur'aan, zakaat, even the details and the wudhu is mentioned in full detail. But why not anything on imaamat? Which is a fundament in shia believe?

Really? Okay show me the method of wudhu from Quran. Show the method of Salat from quran. Show me EXPLICITLY, don't bring your own interpretations in it. I WILL WAIT FOR THIS ONE.

Produce just 1 evidence on imamat in the quran and I will become a shia. No comedy factory and playing with ayaat and word games, but in simple words, Imamat is your USUL e DIN, show me 1 evidence from the Qur'an. Because according to your holy imams, 90 % of the Muslims are kufaar, because they dont believe in this concept. with all respect.

HAHAH With all due respect, we already have many Shias, we don't need any more shias. So what if you become shia or not? I don't care :P. And with respect to your other question. Okay, Let's create a separate topic exclusively on that sometime okay.

These people where according to us, good and righteous people, although there is strong evidence that your 11th Imam, Al Askari (rah) was nmever born

THERE IS STRONG EVIDENCE *SHOCK SHOCK*. Then why are you holding the evidence from using against me?!! Wow. You must be very sympathetic towards me. LOL And It is ironic that one point you claim that "there is strong evidence that you 11th imam.... was never born" and in another place in teh same sentence yoU put RAH with the name of Imam Al Askari? LMAO if you don;'t believe in him then why put RAH in front of his name hjmmmmmm.. You are confused.

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

Sorry to intrude in your lovely debate guys but I'm sure Tahir Ul Qadri is NOT his mullah lol...

I am sure he is not my mulla either (i.e. Shia). I have a very interesting question regarding these many Sunni sects, I will post it in my other thread

[Abu Hurayrah]

Yaara kho, are you damn blind or what? Go back to the first few pages of this thread and show me where the hell I attributed "Siffaat of Allah" to Imams (AS)? Are you damn blind or what the hell is wrong with you? I am explaining the same thing to you 1000s of time, again and again.

I did not come to that part yet, but shia's do ascribe certain sifaat of Allah to the ''infallibles''
Pe qaarega me, gozaara kawa wror jaana.

Yaar! Again you are stuck on that "imam" mean this part. I already you that okay Imam mean may have different meaning in different ayas! Do you comprehend that?! I freaking agree with you that Imam or any other word for that matter have different meaning in different ayas!!!!!!! Do you get it now or should I explain it to you in another language???? But the word "imam" in Surah Baqara 124 means "LEADER" in the context that it is used; it does not mean road or anything else. Then about the last part of the AYA I REPLIED:

LOL, wait a minute, dear brother, let us try again, I did not post anything about aya 124, no What I said was the following:

- According to the Qur'aan, every muslim can become an Imam.
(And I posted the evidence from Surah Furqaan).

You said in reply:

How can they all become Imams? Please do post the AYAT NUMBER when posting a reference to Quran.

I then, explained this, also by posting the rpevious verses to make your life easier.


68: And those who invoke not any other ilâh (god) along with Allâh, nor kill such life as Allâh has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment

69: The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace;

70:Except those who repent and believe (in Islâmic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds, for those, Allâh will change their sins into good deeds, and Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful[].

71:And whosoever repents and does righteous good deeds, then verily, he repents towards Allâh with true repentance.

72:And those who do not witness falsehood, and if they pass by some evil play or evil talk, they pass by it with dignity.

73:And those who, when they are reminded of the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord, fall not deaf and blind thereat.

Surah 25/74

And those who say: "Our Lord! Bestow on us from our wives and our offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and make us leaders for the Muttaqûn" (pious - see V.2:2 and the footnote of V.3:164)."

Waj'alnaa lil muttaqeena imaaman''

Well, they can become imams of the pious by having taqwa and by not transgressing the ahkaam of Allah and his Shari'a. Passing by evil talk with dignity, not witnessing falsehood, if they don't fall deaf or blind when hearing the ayaat and the revelations, and verses of the Qur'aan, the one that repents and does righteous deeds etc., I posted the aya's before also to clarify the context of the aya.

Appendix:

- Every muislim can become an imam by
- Having Taqwa
- listening and adhering to the ayat and proofs of the Qur'aan
- Passing by evil talk with dignity
- Not witnessing falsehood
- Repenting
- Doing righteous deeds etc.


The list goes on, these where just the acts or conditions in the 4 porevious verses.

Do you get what I said there or what yaar? You are making me upset now because I have to repeat the same thing 1000 times for you to understand.

No 'buddy, this is what happend:

- You said an imam can not be 1) Zalim 2) Kafir (in previous life (I don't know what uyou mean by that, haha hopefully no reincarnation)
I gave you evidence from the Qur'aan where allah mentions ''the imams KUFR'' ''Faqaatilu a'emmatal Kufre'' Surah Tawbah
And you said after this:

Do you get what I said there or what yaar? You are making me upset now because I have to repeat the same thing 1000 times for you to understand.

I would also like at least a reply, if you are willing to on the issue of this ''Dhikr e Ali ul Ibaadah'' issue. You said this, and my reply was:
Dhikr e Ali is Ibaadah? Where is your prove from the Qur'aan and Sunnat? This is a very important issue, because you are spamming here with this creed and talking about a subject, not a minor subject, you are talking about IBAADAH and telling us that dhikr e Ali is Ibaadah. There is general qaa'idah in Islaam and that is:
- For every act in the Aqeedah, and in particular in Ibaadah, there should be prove from the Qur'aan and Sunnah. If there is no prove, then it is an innovation, and every innovation leads to the hell fire.

As you can see, I am the one who is repeating himself all the time.

And remember this Aya was revealed to Ibrahim(AS) before Ismail(AS) or Ishaq (AS) were born, so are you implying that offspring of Ibrahim(AS) including Ismail (AS) and IShaq (AS) were WRONDOERS? (Astaghfirulla)? Because that's the only meaning i can take from you BAAR BAAR UNDERLYING the last part of teh aya

No that is not what I am implying, I just told you to prove a concept of Imamat from the Qur'aan, which is an Usul in your Deen. Nowhere in this verse, Allah tells us to follow 12 imams. Ibrahim alayhisalam was made a leader (an imam), a rolemodel for the people, Allah could use the word Khalifah for it, for example, would you be propagating the list of 12 khualfah? I think you surely would. fact stays that this verse, and others, are no evidence what so ever for a concept like ''imamat'' which was unknown by the first, second and third generation of muslims, it became a hype after the battle of Karbala and the trendsetters where mostly people who had betrayed the Ahl Bayt of our beloved prophet (s.a.w.).

This is Prophet's (SAW) narration, just listen to your own Mulla for what I said:

I am sorry, he is not my mullah, nor do I approve his actions or words,

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329:
Narrated Jabir bin Samura:
I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."



Muslim Book 020, Number 4478:
It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.


NOTE: The prophet (saw) ALL of the rulers will be from QURAISH not just Imam Mahdi (AS). Now see what you claimed above.



Abu Dawud Book 36, Number 4269:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If only one day of this world remained. Allah would lengthen that day (according to the version of Za'idah), till He raised up in it a man who belongs to me or to my family whose father's name is the same as my father's, who will fill the earth with equity and justice as it has been filled with oppression and tyranny (according to the version of Fitr). Sufyan's version says: The world will not pass away before the Arabs are ruled by a man of my family whose name will be the same as mine.



NOTE: The prophet(SAW) gave you the NAME. And here you are saying that he didn't name them?

Because they are frrom Quraysh, they all need to be children of Ali (ra) ? LOL
The name that was given, was the name and characteristic of Mahdi (alayhi salam). Thank you.

Touba Naozbillah So hazrat Isa(AS) too is hiding in a cave? What makes you think that a God that can take Isa (AS) to heaven can't take Mahdi (AS) To heaven?

Because I know that Isa (alayhi salam) is not in a cave, and there is prove from the Qur'an and Sunat for Isa alayhi salam, and our beloved prophet (s.a.w) informed us that the Mahdi will be a normal human being at the age of 40. No supernatural person of 800 years old in a cave.

So oh okay wait you are right, mashallah *sarcasm* so then tell me this must also mean "Leaders of Kufr" Astaghfirullah:
[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." Is this "imam" here, "imam of kufr" too? Astaghfirulla? Or what?
I guess you are the one contradicting yourself. If there is no "concept of imamat" in Quran then what does Allah mean when he said to Ibrahim "I make you Imam" of the people? What did Allah mean by that?

You are getting desperate wrora, If you paid attention, I said you where mis-using verses to support a false claim, which never existed in the Islaam or the Qur'aan. And here you're are again, telling me that imam is your holy infallible imam. I ask you again, the prayer is mentioned almost a hundred times in the Qur'aan, when to approach to prayer, when not, having khushu etc. And according to the ithna ashariya , the salaah is a Furuh-e din, and Imamat is a usul e din, why don't you have any clear prove like ''O believers, follow the 12 infallible imams who will come after Muhammad'' Why not, instead of that, you are feeding us with an aya where Allah azzawajal called Ibrahim alayhisalam a leader (imam) , role model for the believers.

When the prophet (s.a.w.) appointed Abu Bakr Sadiq (ra) as an Imam, should we add him also to the list of Imams? And not to forget, you are proclaiming here, that your imams are better than 124.000 prophets. So your Imam Baqir was better than Musa alayhi salam. Am I right? And Khidhr alayhisalam, and Nuh alayhisalaam, and Isaa alayhisalam. Right?

Really? Okay show me the method of wudhu from Quran. Show the method of Salat from quran. Show me EXPLICITLY, don't bring your own interpretations in it. I WILL WAIT FOR THIS ONE.

Here you go,
The Noble Qur'an - Al-Mâ'idah 5:6
O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salât (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows[, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janâba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allâh does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.

You see how clear this is masha Allah? This is just the Wudu, this is not even a pillar, or a usul in shia'ism, and see how it is described, but your Imamat, which is the most important think after your shahada, is not mentioned once? Instead of that, you are spamming here, and misquoting verses of the Qur'aan to support your whims and desires.

HAHAH With all due respect, we already have many Shias, we don't need any more shias. So what if you become shia or not? I don't care :P. And with respect to your other question. Okay, Let's create a separate topic exclusively on that sometime okay.

Ok no problem, insha allah.

THERE IS STRONG EVIDENCE *SHOCK SHOCK*. Then why are you holding the evidence from using against me?!! Wow. You must be very sympathetic towards me. LOL And It is ironic that one point you claim that "there is strong evidence that you 11th imam.... was never born" and in another place in teh same sentence yoU put RAH with the name of Imam Al Askari? LMAO if you don;'t believe in him then why put RAH in front of his name hjmmmmmm.. You are confused.

I am haha believe me, it's a strange case, in case he did exsist, I have put it there, he would be the brother of Ja'far (rah).

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

The Noble Qur'an - Al-Mâ'idah 5:6
O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salât (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows[, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janâba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allâh does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.

This is not the complete wudu (i.e. how many times must I wash my hands,face, etc) I asked for complete method, and same thing for zakat etc, complete method, with how-to manual accompanied.

When the prophet (s.a.w.) appointed Abu Bakr Sadiq (ra) as an Imam, should we add him also to the list of Imams?

No because as I said, only Allah appoints Imam through the Paighambar (SAW). By "imam" I don't mean Imam for prayer, by Imam I mean Leader.

you are feeding us with an aya where Allah azzawajal called Ibrahim alayhisalam a leader (imam) , role model for the believers.

But wasn't he already a role model for the believers (i.e. Nabi)? Why make him Imam (if you don't even believe in imamat) when he already was a Nabi (the highest authority in your eyes)?

@Hurayrah, bro I can't type anymore because ta rata khpala tabla ghage aw za darta khpal dol wahom LOL. Za darta weym che da dase de aw ta rata waye che na dase da. Anyways check your PM, and do give your views on my other topic. Thanks

[Abu Hurayrah]

This is not the complete wudu (i.e. how many times must I wash my hands,face, etc) I asked for complete method, and same thing for zakat etc, complete method, with how-to manual accompanied.

LOL, in the Dutch language they have a very nice word for this, but I will resist from saying that. Don't get angry,m just look in what detail the Wudhu is explained by Allah, and then look at the proves in the Qur'aan for you Pillar of whole belief system, which has none evidences. This was the point I wanted to clarify, it isn't 100 %, but make it 90 % full detail, does it matter? You get the point.

No because as I said, only Allah appoints Imam through the Paighambar (SAW). By "imam" I don't mean Imam for prayer, by Imam I mean Leader.

Well, Abu Bakr was also appointed by the prophet, also by the people, he was the Khalifah, after all, and a leader, and an Imam, what else do you want?

But wasn't he already a role model for the believers (i.e. Nabi)? Why make him Imam (if you don't even believe in imamat) when he already was a Nabi (the highest authority in your eyes)?

It is just a word, a leader, haha come on, I think this is the last convulsion of your argument.

Why make him Imam (if you don't even believe in imamat

I did not make him Imam (a leader), and I do believe Ibrahim alayhisalam was an Imam. But I don't believe in ''imaamat'' and infallible imams with supernatural powers , and I do not see any evidence in the Qur'an for this made up concept which came into existence after the battle of Karballah, at the hands of the cowards of Kufa and the Khawaarij.

@Hurayrah, bro I can't type anymore because ta rata khpala tabla ghage aw za darta khpal dol wahom LOL. Za darta weym che da dase de aw ta rata waye che na dase da. Anyways check your PM, and do give your views on my other topic. Thanks

Bekhi sama da wrora, there is also something else, if you read the proper tafsir of aya 124 of Surah Baqarah, it states that the reason Ibrahim alayhisalam was chosen as a leader Imam, for the whole mankind, was because the generations after him, Jayud, and Nasaara would not follow his monotheistic religion. But the Ummah of Muhammad (s.a.w.) did follow him and does follow him. We all know that every messenger is sent only to his qawm, and this was true, except for Muhammad (sallalahu aleyhi wasallam),

The reason why he was made an imam , or a leader for the mankind, was to draw a line between the true religion (monotheism of Ibrahim) alayhisalam, and the generation who came after him. And Allah elsewhere called him a Haneef.

I am quoting from qtafsir.com

Ibrahim Al-Khalil was an Imam for the People

Allah is informing us of the honor of Ibrahim Al-Khalil, who He made an Imam for the people, and a model to be imitated, because of the way he conducted himself and adhered to Tawhid. This honor was given to Prophet Ibrahim when he adhered to Allah's decisions and prohibitions. This is why Allah said,

﴿وَإِذِ ابْتَلَى إِبْرَهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَـتٍ﴾

(And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim (i.e., Allah) tried him with (certain) commands).

This Ayah means, O Muhammad! Remind the idolators and the People of the Scriptures, who pretend to be followers of the religion of Ibrahim, while in reality they do not follow it, while you, O Muhammad, and your followers are the true followers of his religion; remind them of the commands and prohibitions that Allah tested Ibrahim with.

﴿فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ﴾

(which he fulfilled.) indicating that Ibrahim implemented all of Allah's orders. Allah said in another Ayah,

﴿وَإِبْرَهِيمَ الَّذِى وَفَّى ﴾

(And of Ibrahim (Abraham) who fulfilled (or conveyed) all that (Allah ordered him to do or convey)) (53:37)

meaning, he was truthful and he was obedient to Allah's legislation. Also, Allah said,

﴿إِنَّ إِبْرَهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةً قَـنِتًا لِلَّهِ حَنِيفًا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ - شَاكِراً لانْعُمِهِ اجْتَبَـهُ وَهَدَاهُ إِلَى صِرَطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ - وَءاتَيْنَـهُ فِى الْدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَإِنَّهُ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصَّـلِحِينَ - ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ ﴾

(Verily, Ibrahim was an Ummah (or a nation), obedient to Allah, Hanif (i.e. to worship none but Allah), and he was not one of those who were Al-Mushrikin (polytheists), (He was) thankful for His (Allah's) favors. He (Allah) chose him and guided him to a straight path. And We gave him good in this world, and in the Hereafter he shall be of the righteous. Then, We have sent the revelation to you (O Muhammad saying): "Follow the religion of Ibrahim Hanif (Islamic Monotheism ـ to worship none but Allah) and he was not of the Mushrikin.) (16:120-123)

﴿قُلْ إِنَّنِى هَدَانِى رَبِّى إِلَى صِرَطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ ﴾

(Say (O Muhammad ): "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a straight path, a right religion, the religion of Ibrahim, Hanifan, and Ibrahim (to worship none but Allah, alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikin.'') (6:161) and,

﴿مَا كَانَ إِبْرَهِيمُ يَهُودِيًّا وَلاَ نَصْرَانِيًّا وَلَكِن كَانَ حَنِيفًا مُّسْلِمًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ - إِنَّ أَوْلَى النَّاسِ بِإِبْرَهِيمَ لَلَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُ وَهَـذَا النَّبِىُّ وَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَاللَّهُ وَلِىُّ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ﴾

(Ibrahim was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifan (Islamic Monotheism ـ to worship none but Allah alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikin. Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibrahim are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad ) and those who have believed (Muslims). And Allah is the Wali (Protector and Helper) of the believers) (3:67-68).

Allah said,

﴿بِكَلِمَـتِ﴾

(with Kalimat (words)) which means, "Laws, commandments and prohibitions.'' `Words' as mentioned here, sometimes refers to what Allah has willed, such as Allah's statement about Maryam,

﴿وَصَدَّقَتْ بِكَلِمَـتِ رَبَّهَا وَكُتُبِهِ وَكَانَتْ مِنَ الْقَـنِتِينَ﴾

(And she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord, and (also believed in) His Scriptures, and she was of the Qanitin (i.e. obedient to Allah)) (66:12).

"Words'' also refers to Allah's Law, such as Allah's statement,

﴿وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقاً وَعَدْلاً﴾

(And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice) (6:115) meaning, His legislation. "Words'' also means truthful news, or a just commandment or prohibition. For instance, Allah said,

﴿وَإِذِ ابْتَلَى إِبْرَهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَـتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ﴾

(And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim tried him with (certain) Words (commands), which he fulfilled) meaning, he adhered to them, Allah said,

﴿إِنِّى جَـعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا﴾

("Verily, I am going to make you an Imam (a leader) for mankind (to follow you).'') as a reward for Ibrahim's good deeds, adhering to the commandments and avoiding the prohibitions. This is why Allah made Ibrahim a role model for the people, and an Imam whose conduct and path are imitated and followed.

Hope this explains the verse.

wsalam

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

LOL, in the Dutch language they have a very nice word for this, but I will resist from saying that. Don't get angry,m just look in what detail the Wudhu is explained by Allah, and then look at the proves in the Qur'aan for you Pillar of whole belief system, which has none evidences. This was the point I wanted to clarify, it isn't 100 %, but make it 90 % full detail, does it matter? You get the point.

That's the thing though, you think there is none in support of imamat. But the thing is so far I have only used 1 aya. I haven't even presented my full case yet. And the reason why I asked you to show me complete method of Salat/Zakat/Hajj/Roza etc was to make you that Quran does not explicitly state all things. Most of the times it's implying something. That's the point I wanted to make because you asked me to show you explicitly imamat from Quran.

Well, Abu Bakr was also appointed by the prophet, also by the people, he was the Khalifah, after all, and a leader, and an Imam, what else do you want?

lol that's the thing dear. To you Abu Bakr was appointed by prophet and everything but not to me. So yeah. We can basically debate about everything.

I did not make him Imam (a leader), and I do believe Ibrahim alayhisalam was an Imam. But I don't believe in ''imaamat'' and infallible imams with supernatural powers , and I do not see any evidence in the Qur'an for this made up concept which came into existence after the battle of Karballah, at the hands of the cowards of Kufa and the Khawaarij.




Bekhi sama da wrora, there is also something else, if you read the proper tafsir of aya 124 of Surah Baqarah, it states that the reason Ibrahim alayhisalam was chosen as a leader Imam, for the whole mankind, was because the generations after him, Jayud, and Nasaara would not follow his monotheistic religion. But the Ummah of Muhammad (s.a.w.) did follow him and does follow him. We all know that every messenger is sent only to his qawm, and this was true, except for Muhammad (sallalahu aleyhi wasallam),

The reason why he was made an imam , or a leader for the mankind, was to draw a line between the true religion (monotheism of Ibrahim) alayhisalam, and the generation who came after him. And Allah elsewhere called him a Haneef.

I am quoting from qtafsir.com



Hope this explains the verse.

wsalam

Okay, maybe we can discuss this some other time. I am gonna go now. I will read the tafsir later.

[abubaker]

ok i will post a shiah version of the sunni hadith you posted


The shiahs believe that these 2 imams will be from the Progeny of the prophet [sw] ie.. they will be of his genetic decent.

However, in the sunni hadith that you posted it doesn't say the 2 imams will be from the Progeny of the prophet [sw] instead it states that they will be from QURAISH, which means that the positions of the 2 imams are open to anyone from the tribes of quraish. Not just the banu hashim as we now the quraish were made up more than just the sub tribe of banuhashim

So we can safely say that this hadith doesn't talk about shiah imams.


The fact that you had to modify and change the sunni hadith so that it would comply with your shia paradigm in itself is proof enough that the sunni hadith does not talk about the shiah imams/amirs other wise you wouldn't need to go and create your own hadith... there is no way you can use this hadith against us as proof.



And as far as the number of the 2 amirs/ khulafa are concerned.

we sunni simply dont know all their names.. because the hadith does not name anyone to be amongst these future khulafa

Since we dont have knoledge of the unseen or of the future we simply dont know who the 2 khulafa will be.

And Allah says further:

“Most people are such that if you follow them they will lead you away from the right path, because they rely on conjecture only.”

(Quran, 6:6)

for the shiah who claim they know all the 2 amirs

“They follow but conjecture and that which they themselves desire.”

(Quran, 53:23)

You don't have the knowledge of the unseen so how can you claim that you know all the 2 imams by name.

All we sunni know that there will be 2 khulafa, but we dont know exactly who those 2 are.

And Allah says.

“You have been given but little knowledge.”

(Quran, 7:85)

We stay away from ''dahan''


Unlike the shiahs we dont invent our own hadith to say who exactly who the 2 amirs are there is no way to know for certain as we simply havent been given enough knowledge about it.. to say that you know all the 2 amirs is speaking without knowledge.

Ibn Hajar says about this hadith

“No one has much knowledge about this particular Hadith”

(Ibn Hajar al-’Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 6:338)


There is a disagreement even among the various shiah groups that have their own 12 amirs such as the ismailis, Zaydis... as to who the 12 amirs are every of them have their own list... and you have the audacity to laugh at us

The bes our sunni scholars can do are guess at who these 2 amirs are[ atleast they are being truthful about it] unlike the shiahs that have fabricated hadiths to back up thier claims.

Our sunni scholars speculate [again we cant say for certain because we dont have knowledge of the unseen] that the 2 amirs refers to al-Khulafaa al-Rashidoon which includes the 4 rigthly guided calif ''concerdered rightly guided by the ijma'' but in addition Hasan [ra] and Umar ibn abdull Aziz [ra] are also consedered to be among the kulafa ar-rashidoon

Which means only 6 of the 12 khulafa have come to pass.


. Abu Bakr As-Siddiq
2. Umar ibn al-Khattab
3. Uthman bin Affan
4. Ali ibn abi Talib
5. Hasan ibn Ali
6. Umar ibn Abdul Aziz

And 6 more are yet to come before the judgement day, the last of these will be the Mahdi.
----

[شمله ور خراساني]

taher ul qadri is a crypto-shi'ite.