Shia Islam for Dummies: Ask Those who Know

[abubaker]

I believe in the calim of the AHLE BAYT being the prophets heirs.... the political heirs... i do not attach supernatual powers them.... they themselves maintained their claim 2 leadership and were persecuted for it by ur muawyiiyas dynasty....
READ UR BULKHARI and tell me who the 12 amirs are!
Imam Ali had the strongest claim as shown by the seera

please refrain from what you are doing

[Dreamer]

provide proof for your 12 amirs from the quran go on i challenge you

personal attacks wont get you any where

this is why didn't want to discuss this in the first place the likes of you always resort to came calling, man up and provide evidence for your 12 amirs from the quran

nasbeee... u believe in BUKHARI right? BUKHARI states 12 amirs.... who are these 12 amirs.... I dont need 2 go 2 quran when BUKHARI shows these 12 are the rightful amirs as opposed 2 caliph1,2 and 3!

[Dreamer]

WHO ARE THE 12 AMIRS! ANSWER! iTS UR GOLD STANDARD BOOK....Even Bukhari showed that there will be 12 rightful heirs... who are they?

[Dreamer]

That wht I mean by taking an unbiased look.... look at ur books and read the seera and then come 2 a conclusion about xyz

[Dreamer]

perhaps u will care 2 show me where caliph 1, 2 and 3 are shown in quran 2 be the righful heirs? I mean Caliph 1 elected in haste at saqiffa (prophets body and burial were ignored) ansar disagreed and there were words and swords raised...
caliph 2 elected with the will of caliph 1 (funny seeing as there was no shura for him)
caliph 3 elected with a shura of 6 with Abd rahman ibn auf holding a veto vote ( he being the bro in law of caliph 3 )

[Dreamer]

Please explain why Hz Abu dar was exiled?

[Dreamer]

after u list the 12 amirs of course!

[Dreamer]

oh and Id rather be a SHIA (Supporter) of Imam Ali then a shia (supporter) of some1 like Muawiyya and his son Yazeed

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

I confused you with Dreamer who said Matam was haraam. I am sorry for that. Should not matter, it is ontopic.

I think it is neccessary to put in into simple terms.

You post an aya which is about Bani Israel and tell us, this is about the imams.
You post a non complete aya about Ibarhim alayhisalam and tell us, this is about imams.

Please refer to my this post, for my take on the above Aya. I posted the Aya to prove a point about Imamat, that the authority of Imamat is above the authority of messengerhood.

I asked you a very simple question, and by the way, nothing from my post was a copy paste, so please do not act like it is a copy paste by ignoring it.

This aya I posted

Quran: Surah Al Furqaan:
And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable) conversion; Those who witness no falsehood, and, if they pass by futility, they pass by it with honorable (avoidance); Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind; Those who say: ‘Our Lord, grant us the coolness of our eyes in our wives and children, and make us leaders {imams} of the pious.

Here Allah swt is referring to the aa'm people, in general, they can all become imams ? By the difinition of the shia creed, not anyone can become an imam, Am I right? Yes I am, they are BORN as imams, and they are higher in position then prophets in shi'ism.

How can they all become Imams? Please do post the AYAT NUMBER when posting a reference to Quran.

The reason I showed you that the word imam can have different meaning was because you where taking every verse out of context and was feeding us with the so called shia imam evidence from the Qur'an. You have showed none.

How did I take aya out of context? Check my reply again, the word Imam there does indeed mean IMAM (LEADER!). It doesn't mean "road" or "scripture" or whatever else you say Imam means. In that particular aya, the word IMAM there means LEADER. If not you tell me what it means. Let me put in simple terms for you, apparently you are not getting anything I say: In that AYA, Allah gave the munsabat of Imamat to Hazrat Ibraheem (AS), and then Hazrat Ibrahim(AS) asks Allah to also make Imams from his OFFSPRING. And Hazrat Muhammad(SAW) wa ALE Muhammad(SAW) are among his offspring.

And the aya you have cut,

Surah al Baqarah

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

The AYa wasn't cut, check out my reply underneath my first reply. In the first reply, I just wanted to make a point that Ibrahim (AS) was promoted to Imam. And regarding the last part of the AYA, it further supports my claim of Imamat. How you may ask. I said that Imam Cannot be ZAALIM (cruel, or ever been kaffir in past life) and this Aya proves that. The last part of the aya is merely setting a standard for who an Imam can be. This last part was revealed so that tomorrow a ERA GHAYRA cannot claim the munsabat of Imamat. My Imams (AS) are among the best of Allah's creation with virtues such as "Al Hassan wal Hussain, Syedo Shababo Ehlel Janna" and "Hussain O Mini Wa Ana Minal Hussain" and ""ZIKR E ALI UuN IBADAH." Now these certainly not the qualities of "wrongdoers" because that's what you were IMPLYING by highlighting the last part of the aya.

The answer I have posted in my very first post, The narration is about 12 muslim leaders, or amirs. Some scolars say that six of them are named, till Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, in sight of the other narration about the Khilafah which would stand for 30 years and the kingdom. The others are not known, except Al Mahdi. And why didnt you respond to the narration from Sahih muslim about the 12 hypocrites?

Let me say again, "Something that can be asserted without can be rejected without evidence". "Some scholars say " blah blah, I don't believe in these scholar, history is not their miraas, so give me references. So how do you expect me to believe your 12 "muslim leaders, or amirs" when you can't even give me their names or prove their relationship with Ali (AS)? Now let me give you the names of ALL THE 12 IMAMS (AS) of mine and THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO HAZRAT FATIMA(SA) AND ALI(AS) AND RASUL ALLAH (SAW).

Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (AS)
Imam Hassan Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali (AS)
Imam Hussain Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali (AS)
Imam Ali Ibn Al HussaiN (AS) -> Son Of Hussain (AS)
Imam Muhammad Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali Ibn al HussaiN (AS)
Imam Jaffar Ibn Muhammad (AS) -> Son of Muhammad Ibn Ali (AS)
Imam Musa Ibn JAffar (AS) -> Son of Jaffar Ibn Muhammad ibn Ali (AS)
Imam Ali Ibn Musa (AS) -> Son of Musa Ibn Jaffar (AS)
Imam Muhammad Al Taqi Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali ibn Musa (AS)
Imam Ali Ibn Muhammad Al Taqi (AS) -> Son of Muhammad Al Taqi (AS)
Imam Hassan Al Askari Ibn Ali (AS) -> Son of Ali Ibn Muhammad Al Taqi (AS)
Imam Muhammad Al Mahdi Ibn Al Hassan (AS) -> Son of Imam Hassan Al Askari (AS)

Unless you are wahabi, the sunni also believes these Imams. Now show me anything that's wrong with my what I just wrote. How do you expect me to believe your version of 12 "rulers" when you can't even produce their names.

And regarding that 12 hypocrites narration in bukhari. What about it? Or are you saying that it is for Shia Imams?

Hurayrah, I will also be creating another thread where I will ask questions from you regarding SUnni Islam so please get ready for that too. Thanks

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

Matongia means ******* or harami, You are calling me names. You were talking about religous stuff now instantly you are resort to name calling...this is the imaan level of a shia.

I have sit to shia sermon in disguise, man they were calling names to hazrat ayesha, hazrat umar....nawuzbillah

Hahah wele, dari de aghvi na ka sarangai? Khpal taruf kho waka che za dam opejanom che sora ubo ke ye.

Aw Bala da, before pointing fingers at others look in your own griwaan, your second post in this thread, and how would you classify that? Never forget that every action has an opposite reaction.

@REQUEST TO THE MODERATORS, Please move the unrelated posts from this thread to another topic or garbage bin.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I have a few questions for the shi'ites:


Sunni Islam is based upon Quran and primarily on the 6 books of hadith collections, the exegesis and the opinions of companions and prominent scholars.


Where is Shi'i Islam based upon?

Which books?

And If I want to study Shi'ite creed and jurisprudence, where do I have to look for?

Should I accept the answers of random Shi'ites on forum who answer my questions without any reference to authoritative shi'ite religious writ?

Or should I study Shi'ites fundamental and essential books?

If I do have to study books, which books should I study?

And who are the most prominent Shi'ite scholars of the modern age who can tell us about Shi'ite religion and answer our question?

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

Asalaamu'alaykum Haider, welcome back to PF.

Never knew you wre a shia3, I have a few questions, if you don't mind answering? Firstly, what differs from your personal religous beliefs to those of sunni's?

(Khaney.)

Walaikum Salam dear Khaney, thanks for the greetings, khude de khushala laara. Yes, I am a Shia. Coming to your real question, the only real difference between Shia and Sunni Islam is of Khilafat vs Imamat. That's the real, core issue. We (shia) believe in Imamat, you (sunni) don't believe in Imamat. Also, the other issue is of Sahaba. We believe that some of the "sahabis", after the death of Prophet (SAW), turned against the Household of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). And we rightly believe so. For example, Yazeed Ibn Moavia Malaon martyred Hazrat Imam Hussain (AS). And I personally believe that Sunnis have double standards when it comes to some of these "sahabis". For example, Sunni believes that the killers of Hazrat Usman were "kaffir". Okay, then what would you call the people who fought with your 4th Khalif, Hazrat Ali(AS)? How could you call them RAZIU TALA ANHA to those people who fought with your fourth Khalif (MOAVIA fought with Imam Ali(AS) in Safeen and was badly defeated by Lion of God). Why these double standards, like on one hand you call the killers of Usman as "Kaffir" and on the other hand you call the enemies of Ali(AS) as Razi Tala Anhu? That's the major difference between SHia and Sunni in my opinion .

"With Him are the Keys of the Ghayb; non knows them but He."

(Quran 6:59)

I can go on?

“The Knower of Unseen reveals not His secret to anyone. Except to His chosen Messengers”.

Surah-Al-Jinn, verse 26.

Quran [Yusufali 3:179] Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which ye are now, until He separates what is evil from what is good nor will He disclose to you the secrets of the Unseen. But He chooses of His Messengers (For the purpose) whom He pleases. So believe in Allah. And His messengers: And if ye believe and do right, ye have a reward without measure.

I can go on? But I am short on time for now. But in short, it is the decision of Allah to whomever he wishes to give the knowledge of unseen, and when we say our Imams and Prophet (saw) for that matter have the knowledge of unseen, we mean that Allah chose to gave them that knowledge as is evident from the above ayas. Forget about Imams, many Sunnis believe that not even Prophet Muhammad (SAW) had the knowledge of Unseen. If he didn't have the knowledge of unseen then how did he foretold many things that will happen (i.e. the foretelling of the coming of Mahdi (AS) and how there will be 12 rulers from his family before qiyama). All of these things come under the category of the "unseen". I hope I answered your question Guley.

Who do you consider as the enemies of the Prophet (SAW)

Anyone that turned against the Family of Prophet (SAW) after His(SAW) death, or anyone who gave any kind of pain to Prophet Muhammad(SAW) during his lifetime or anyone who refused to Obey Prophet Muhammad(SAW), and so on. And this is all written in the history books.

@Palwasha, since now you are a moderator, could you please move the post that are unrelated to the topic from this thread please? Especially of that Luffy Fluffy guy. I am amazed how some people are apparently violating the "terms of conduct" on here and no one is taking action against them.

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

I have a few questions for the shi'ites:


Sunni Islam is based upon Quran and primarily on the 6 books of hadith collections, the exegesis and the opinions of companions and prominent scholars.


Where is Shi'i Islam based upon?

Which books?

And If I want to study Shi'ite creed and jurisprudence, where do I have to look for?

Should I accept the answers of random Shi'ites on forum who answer my questions without any reference to authoritative shi'ite religious writ?

Or should I study Shi'ites fundamental and essential books?

If I do have to study books, which books should I study?

And who are the most prominent Shi'ite scholars of the modern age who can tell us about Shi'ite religion and answer our question?

I already answered some of your questions, but these questions that you are now asking are more of "how to do research" than Shia Islam. So go to google.com and search, "How to do research..." or "methods of research" or whatever and you will get your answer thanks.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I already answered some of your questions, but these questions that you are now asking are more of "how to do research" than Shia Islam. So go to google.com and search, "How to do research..." or "methods of research" or whatever and you will get your answer thanks.

why are you dodging my question?

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

why are you dodging my question?

Yaara da yo takkay de zda kare da "dodging" aw nor da kaar na ye LOL. I answered your question, I didn't "dodge" it I don't think I need to answer those questions as it has nothing to do with "beliefs" or anything. AW bal da che mo sara har yo ALIF BE question dapara time nishta, sa poishwe?