What Islam has given to the world?

[khushal]

read this DZJ and learn.

http://actok.org/faqs/whats-the-difference-between-an-atheist-and-an-agnostic/

[DaZahroJaam.]

i am not going anywhere until you give me a solution to the first wrong of yours or claim responsibility for being wrong. when we resolve that, i will gladly discuss this with you.
refer to the last portion of my previous post.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

What he said is right, but he is a secular saudi guy.

What do you mean he is "secular"? I don't know him and I am not aware of his beliefs. Please explain.

Besides, ahlus sunnah accepts the truth even if it comes from the devil. Which basically means, if someone says anything that doesn't contradict Qur'an & Sunnah but rather affirms it, we accept it as the truth.

So let's say this guy or any other person who is a secularist/kaafir, and he utters a word of truth, that doesn't mean what he says is no longer of any value.

also you say that muslims dont understand Islam, but why is that? why did God make it so hard to understand Islam? Why is every muslim society so divided?

Thats not what I said. Islam is quite easy to understand, any person who reads the qur'an knows Islam. Only difficulty is deriving rulings from text. Which is something most people are unable to do without thorough education.

The reason for misguidance, strive and division is caused by many factors. Lack of knowledge is merely one of the factors. Evil intentions, greed, partisanship etc are far more dangerous factors which people often forget to mention.

The reason west has succeeded is because they started believing in humanity and equality, especially after World War 2.

You are obviously very poorly educated person. No offense.

Europeans have a very long tradition of humanism based on their christian faith and their general philosophical traditions. If you study Greek philosophy, Roman history and Nordic & Germanic literature of the heathens, you will find that certain values such as compassion, mercy, generosity etc are universal human values present in most human traditions.

In fact, Europeans turned less compassionate since the Enlightenment. The French revolution was the start of a shift away from compassion towards murderous ideological zealotry which led to World War I & II and the current capitalist hegemony of the West.

They became more secular and took out religion from the state level.

Europeans never had a religion-based legal system. They had monarchies supported by the church.

The role of monarchies and church in social, political and economical affairs of Europeans started dwindling long before WO II.

The muslim world is still stuck in dark ages and we still dont know what to do. The whole place is a confused mess

The only "Muslim" country with some level of Islam-based legal system in the entire world is Saudi Arabia. All other "Muslim" countries no longer have any religion-based politics since the beginning of Western dominance over Muslim India, Middle East and North Africa.

Take a look at your own homeland: Pakistan was created by a secularist Jinnah with a secularist English law.

You can't critique Islam or Muslims based on your own misinformed perception of history & politics.

Many non-Muslim secularist are able to critique Muslim thought because they actually put an effort to understand what is Islam and what is not Islam.

The problem with people like you & Badlun is that you base your criticism on things that aren't actually Islamic and you go on and label them as Islam.

[khushal]

i am not going anywhere until you give me a solution to the first wrong of yours or claim responsibility for being wrong. when we resolve that, i will gladly discuss this with you.
refer to the last portion of my previous post.

I did not make any claims and if you think I did then what was it.

You made a claim and your own source disproves your claim. End of story.

Take this as a learning experience so your welcome.

[Karachi]

What do you mean he is "secular"? I don't know him and I am not aware of his beliefs. Please explain.

Besides, ahlus sunnah accepts the truth even if it comes from the devil. Which basically means, if someone says anything that doesn't contradict Qur'an & Sunnah but rather affirms it, we accept it as the truth.

So let's say this guy or any other person who is a secularist/kaafir, and he utters a word of truth, that doesn't mean what he says is no longer of any value.





Thats not what I said. Islam is quite easy to understand, any person who reads the qur'an knows Islam. Only difficulty is deriving rulings from text. Which is something most people are unable to do without thorough education.

The reason for misguidance, strive and division is caused by many factors. Lack of knowledge is merely one of the factors. Evil intentions, greed, partisanship etc are far more dangerous factors which people often forget to mention.




You are obviously very poorly educated person. No offense.

Europeans have a very long tradition of humanism based on their christian faith and their general philosophical traditions. If you study Greek philosophy, Roman history and Nordic & Germanic literature of the heathens, you will find that certain values such as compassion, mercy, generosity etc are universal human values present in most human traditions.

In fact, Europeans turned less compassionate since the Enlightenment. The French revolution was the start of a shift away from compassion towards murderous ideological zealotry which led to World War I & II and the current capitalist hegemony of the West.



Europeans never had a religion-based legal system. They had monarchies supported by the church.

The role of monarchies and church in social, political and economical affairs of Europeans started dwindling long before WO II.





The only "Muslim" country with some level of Islam-based legal system in the entire world is Saudi Arabia. All other "Muslim" countries no longer have any religion-based politics since the beginning of Western dominance over Muslim India, Middle East and North Africa.

Take a look at your own homeland: Pakistan was created by a secularist Jinnah with a secularist English law.

You can't critique Islam or Muslims based on your own misinformed perception of history & politics.

Many non-Muslim secularist are able to critique Muslim thought because they actually put an effort to understand what is Islam and what is not Islam.

The problem with people like you & Badlun is that you base your criticism on things that aren't actually Islamic and you go on and label them as Islam.

And Saudi Arabia is probably the worse country to live in the world (having lived there for 14 years myself). I would rather live in a Human based European/North American based society where everybody is equal in most instances. Canada is perfect example of this. Also even in Saudi Arabia most people crave for the west, clearly displaying that they oppressed their. Just go to Riyadh, Jeddah and even Makkah to see this

[khushal]

And Saudi Arabia is probably the worse country to live in the world (having lived there for 14 years myself). I would rather live in a Human based European/North American based society where everybody is equal in most instances. Canada is perfect example of this. Also even in Saudi Arabia most people crave for the west, clearly displaying that they oppressed their. Just go to Riyadh, Jeddah and even Makkah to see this

But it is your Canada that protects the Saudi lifestyle that you despise so much. Tell your beloved Canada to stop the hypocrisy.

FYI, Shamlawar is funded by the Saudis to say what he is saying so he is no different than you, a hypocrite.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

But it is your Canada that protects the Saudi lifestyle that you despise so much. Tell your beloved Canada to stop the hypocrisy.

FYI, Shamlawar is funded by the Saudis to say what he is saying so he is no different than you, a hypocrite.

How am I "funded" by Saudis?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

And Saudi Arabia is probably the worse country to live in the world (having lived there for 14 years myself). I would rather live in a Human based European/North American based society where everybody is equal in most instances. Canada is perfect example of this. Also even in Saudi Arabia most people crave for the west, clearly displaying that they oppressed their. Just go to Riyadh, Jeddah and even Makkah to see this

I agree, and I believe your words when you say people are not happy in Saudi. I've never been there but from what I gather it's a horrible place to live.

However, from all that we've discussed in the last few posts, you failed to reply to me appropriately. So by reducing the whole conversation with merely stating your preference of where to live, you leave me no choice but the come to following conclusion:

Your experience in Saudi & Pakistan shaped your views and opinion about Islam. Other than some superficial knowledge and encounters with bad people in those to countries, you have no other source of knowledge & understanding of Islam. You are no different than any other human being who desires to live a prosperous life. However, your desire to have a better life and your bad experiences in Pakistan & Saudi have made you to believe that your emotional trauma's are caused by Islam. Therefore, you assume that living in Canada where there is no Islam is better.

My argument is, that people have left Islam and abandoned basic teachings of Islam in their individual and social lives. I argue that the lack of Islam is the cause of all the evils you have witnessed in Pakistan & Saudi. I also acknowledge that eventhough, the kafirs in the West might have no islam, they do have some basic human values which are universal. However, In islam, we find those same values along with more comprehensive way of life.

You prefer your individual personal experience as the guiding principle in deciding what is better. You conclude that since you have a better life in Canada, then secularism must be better than Islam.

I have pointed out early how this is a flawed reasoning.

To conclude, if you wish to have an intellectual discussion, you need to grow out of your mere personal experience and study before speaking. People have all sorts of personal experiences, but those personal experiences are not sufficient to decide what is right and what is wrong. I have recently helped an Afghan refugee in Holland who was beaten, robbed, insulted and humiliated. Eventually his asylum application was rejected and he is about to be deported back to Afghanistan. He openly abandoned Islam, embraced christianity and claimed to be a homosexual. But still, Dutch government won't grant him asylum. He told his social worker: "I fled Afghanistan because i was looking for freedom and security. I found that you are the most unjust people in the whole world."

If this person joins this forum and expresses his views, he will reject idea of secularism as false. He will use his personal exprience as evidence against you. He also rejects Islam and he uses ISIS & Taliban as evidence to why Islam is bad.

Would you say that his opinion about secular western liberalism is equally valid?

[khushal]

I agree, and I believe your words when you say people are not happy in Saudi. I've never been there but from what I gather it's a horrible place to live.

However, from all that we've discussed in the last few posts, you failed to reply to me appropriately. So by reducing the whole conversation with merely stating your preference of where to live, you leave me no choice but the come to following conclusion:

Your experience in Saudi & Pakistan shaped your views and opinion about Islam. Other than some superficial knowledge and encounters with bad people in those to countries, you have no other source of knowledge & understanding of Islam. You are no different than any other human being who desires to live a prosperous life. However, your desire to have a better life and your bad experiences in Pakistan & Saudi have made you to believe that your emotional trauma's are caused by Islam. Therefore, you assume that living in Canada where there is no Islam is better.

My argument is, that people have left Islam and abandoned basic teachings of Islam in their individual and social lives. I argue that the lack of Islam is the cause of all the evils you have witnessed in Pakistan & Saudi. I also acknowledge that eventhough, the kafirs in the West might have no islam, they do have some basic human values which are universal. However, In islam, we find those same values along with more comprehensive way of life.

You prefer your individual personal experience as the guiding principle in deciding what is better. You conclude that since you have a better life in Canada, then secularism must be better than Islam.

I have pointed out early how this is a flawed reasoning.

To conclude, if you wish to have an intellectual discussion, you need to grow out of your mere personal experience and study before speaking. People have all sorts of personal experiences, but those personal experiences are not sufficient to decide what is right and what is wrong. I have recently helped an Afghan refugee in Holland who was beaten, robbed, insulted and humiliated. Eventually his asylum application was rejected and he is about to be deported back to Afghanistan. He openly abandoned Islam, embraced christianity and claimed to be a homosexual. But still, Dutch government won't grant him asylum. He told his social worker: "I fled Afghanistan because i was looking for freedom and security. I found that you are the most unjust people in the whole world."

If this person joins this forum and expresses his views, he will reject idea of secularism as false. He will use his personal exprience as evidence against you. He also rejects Islam and he uses ISIS & Taliban as evidence to why Islam is bad.

Would you say that his opinion about secular western liberalism is equally valid?

What are you talking about. He, like most immigrants, lives in the West because the welfare system takes care of them and takes care of them very well better than where they used to live. Why do you think people in Africa are risking their lives to get to Europe. Its all economics.

But the reason Pakistan is a shythole and Saudi is a dictorial monarchy is because their governments and power structures are supported by those same economic powers to sustain their own economies.

The reason your funded by the Saudis is because you wont explain it right, you go on about Islam this and Islam that and those that disagree with your explanation is an automatic polytheist and kafair. All your blabbering is to keep the status quo of keeping pakistan as a shythole and the Saudi as a dictorial monarchy when both have the potential to be much better and idiots like Karachi, who wont take advantage of the Wests Superior Educational System, does not have to go to the West to have some sort of dignity.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

What are you talking about. He, like most immigrants, lives in the West because the welfare system takes care of them and takes care of them very well better than where they used to live. Why do you think people in Africa are risking their lives to get to Europe. Its all economics.

But the reason Pakistan is a shythole and Saudi is a dictorial monarchy is because their governments and power structures are supported by those same economic powers to sustain their own economies.

The reason your funded by the Saudis is because you wont explain it right, you go on about Islam this and Islam that and those that disagree with your explanation is an automatic polytheist and kafair. All your blabbering is to keep the status quo of keeping pakistan as a shythole and the Saudi as a dictorial monarchy when both have the potential to be much better and idiots like Karachi, who wont take advantage of the Wests Superior Educational System, does not have to go to the West to have some sort of dignity.

See, the sad thiing about you is that you are unable to debate me about permissibility of shirk and celebration of shirk & kufr festivities elsewhere. You have no daleel from Qur'an Sunnah and statements of jusrists to support your love for kufr. So you reduce the whole discussion by accusing me of receiving funding from Saudis and you accuse me of being part of conspiracy against Pakistan and in favor of keeping Saudi as a dictatorship.

This is the exact backwardness and ignorance which is the root causes of all the problems in Muslim world. We have people like you who blame others for their own shortcomings and weakeness and when they fail to make a point the resort to conspiracy theories and cheep insults.

[khushal]

See, the sad thiing about you is that you are unable to debate me about permissibility of shirk and celebration of shirk & kufr festivities elsewhere. You have no daleel from Qur'an Sunnah and statements of jusrists to support your love for kufr. So you reduce the whole discussion by accusing me of receiving funding from Saudis and you accuse me of being part of conspiracy against Pakistan and in favor of keeping Saudi as a dictatorship.

This is the exact backwardness and ignorance which is the root causes of all the problems in Muslim world. We have people like you who blame others for their own shortcomings and weakeness and when they fail to make a point the resort to conspiracy theories and cheep insults.

All you got is apostate this and kafir that. You have nothing else. You have no daleel. I have already proven to you that Spring is celebrated all over the world and has nothing to do with Zorastriasm nor Shiasm like you claimed. Before I could reply, the BrownSavage already refuted your irrational blabbering and you said nothing.

What you did instead was defend Saudi family. In your post to Karachi, you defended the Saudi society of being the most in tune with Islam when in reality it is because of them that the whole middle east is a disaster and they are the main cause of its people suffering. Nothing about them is Islamic, their whole power is designed to give a bunch of fat a$ses all say in the society where there is no system of critique and is protected by a hegemonic power(Oil industry) that does nothing but bomb its people who are trying to criticize it.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

All you got is apostate this and kafir that. You have nothing else. You have no daleel. I have already proven to you that Spring is celebrated all over the world and has nothing to do with Zorastriasm nor Shiasm like you claimed. Before I could reply, the BrownSavage already refuted your irrational blabbering and you said nothing.

What you did instead was defend Saudi family. In your post to Karachi, you defended the Saudi society of being the most in tune with Islam when in reality it is because of them that the whole middle east is a disaster and they are the main cause of its people suffering. Nothing about them is Islamic, their whole power is designed to give a bunch of fat a$ses all say in the society where there is no system of critique and is protected by a hegemonic power(Oil industry) that does nothing but bomb its people who are trying to criticize it.

I said you are kafir because you and the ones with you in this matter reject hadeeth of the prophet sal allahu alayhi wasalam which clearly prohibits celebration of nawroz. You labeled an authentic hadeeth as a lie. By concensus of all scholars of Islam, this is an act of kufr.

Go ask any scholar, he will tell you that if you reject an authentic hadeeth and label is as a fabrication just because it goes against your desire to celebrate zoroastrian festival, then you are kafir.

Besides, the hadeeth was recorded more than a thousand years ago. Long before Saudis were born. So like the typical ignorant paki that you are, you have no other thing to say but to recycle the same old garbage.

Besides, Brown Savage rejects a hadeeth because it conflicts with his views. He doesn't believe in hadeeth which bans celebrating spring festival. But goes on in this thread posting a fabricated hadeeth about seeking knowledge even in china.

This is the standard of you people. You don't follow Islam, you follow your own desires. When clear textual evidence conflicts with your desires: its saudi propaganda. In other cases, you pull out narrations from your behinds in support of your silly ideologies.

[Karachi]

I agree, and I believe your words when you say people are not happy in Saudi. I've never been there but from what I gather it's a horrible place to live.

However, from all that we've discussed in the last few posts, you failed to reply to me appropriately. So by reducing the whole conversation with merely stating your preference of where to live, you leave me no choice but the come to following conclusion:

Your experience in Saudi & Pakistan shaped your views and opinion about Islam. Other than some superficial knowledge and encounters with bad people in those to countries, you have no other source of knowledge & understanding of Islam. You are no different than any other human being who desires to live a prosperous life. However, your desire to have a better life and your bad experiences in Pakistan & Saudi have made you to believe that your emotional trauma's are caused by Islam. Therefore, you assume that living in Canada where there is no Islam is better.

My argument is, that people have left Islam and abandoned basic teachings of Islam in their individual and social lives. I argue that the lack of Islam is the cause of all the evils you have witnessed in Pakistan & Saudi. I also acknowledge that eventhough, the kafirs in the West might have no islam, they do have some basic human values which are universal. However, In islam, we find those same values along with more comprehensive way of life.

You prefer your individual personal experience as the guiding principle in deciding what is better. You conclude that since you have a better life in Canada, then secularism must be better than Islam.

I have pointed out early how this is a flawed reasoning.

To conclude, if you wish to have an intellectual discussion, you need to grow out of your mere personal experience and study before speaking. People have all sorts of personal experiences, but those personal experiences are not sufficient to decide what is right and what is wrong. I have recently helped an Afghan refugee in Holland who was beaten, robbed, insulted and humiliated. Eventually his asylum application was rejected and he is about to be deported back to Afghanistan. He openly abandoned Islam, embraced christianity and claimed to be a homosexual. But still, Dutch government won't grant him asylum. He told his social worker: "I fled Afghanistan because i was looking for freedom and security. I found that you are the most unjust people in the whole world."

If this person joins this forum and expresses his views, he will reject idea of secularism as false. He will use his personal exprience as evidence against you. He also rejects Islam and he uses ISIS & Taliban as evidence to why Islam is bad.

Would you say that his opinion about secular western liberalism is equally valid?

Yes I am basing what I am saying on my personal experiences in Saudi or Pakistan, but it's just not my personal experience, you just have to look at what is going around the world, I mean from what I have seen, muslims tend to be few of the biggest hypocrites out there, be it in Saudi or Pakistan. I agree that Islam/Quran does not teach being hypocrite, however muslims are exactly that.

I do agree with you that majority of muslims are not following Islam. But again my question is, what is real Islam? If you follow Islam as a whole, how do we know what is the end result? Every time there is a Islamic state of sort, we get ISIS, Alqaida, Boko Haram, Taliban etc.. types states

I mean lets be honest, if you look at from outsiders point of view, Islam and muslims do indeed look very barbaric, brutal and violent. You can't really blame the non muslims and even many muslims now of thinking that. How can you prove it to be a peaceful religion and muslims to be a peaceful people. I dont see it any where

[Karachi]

What are you talking about. He, like most immigrants, lives in the West because the welfare system takes care of them and takes care of them very well better than where they used to live. Why do you think people in Africa are risking their lives to get to Europe. Its all economics.

But the reason Pakistan is a shythole and Saudi is a dictorial monarchy is because their governments and power structures are supported by those same economic powers to sustain their own economies.

The reason your funded by the Saudis is because you wont explain it right, you go on about Islam this and Islam that and those that disagree with your explanation is an automatic polytheist and kafair. All your blabbering is to keep the status quo of keeping pakistan as a shythole and the Saudi as a dictorial monarchy when both have the potential to be much better and idiots like Karachi, who wont take advantage of the Wests Superior Educational System, does not have to go to the West to have some sort of dignity.

Shut the _ck up. you are the one who takes wellfare and no it is not all economics. People often migrate to the west to become better human beings. To get rid of their prejudices they may have. I have seen this with my own eyes. Obviously idiots like you will always be extremists any where you migrate, so it doesn't matter

Also I may not agree with Shamlawar, but at least he is decent and is trying to be honest in what he says

[کیش]

I said you are kafir because you and the ones with you in this matter reject hadeeth of the prophet sal allahu alayhi wasalam which clearly prohibits celebration of nawroz. You labeled an authentic hadeeth as a lie. By concensus of all scholars of Islam, this is an act of kufr.

Go ask any scholar, he will tell you that if you reject an authentic hadeeth and label is as a fabrication just because it goes against your desire to celebrate zoroastrian festival, then you are kafir.

Besides, the hadeeth was recorded more than a thousand years ago. Long before Saudis were born. So like the typical ignorant paki that you are, you have no other thing to say but to recycle the same old garbage.

Besides, Brown Savage rejects a hadeeth because it conflicts with his views. He doesn't believe in hadeeth which bans celebrating spring festival. But goes on in this thread posting a fabricated hadeeth about seeking knowledge even in china.

This is the standard of you people. You don't follow Islam, you follow your own desires. When clear textual evidence conflicts with your desires: its saudi propaganda. In other cases, you pull out narrations from your behinds in support of your silly ideologies.

Takfir watch.