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  • #46
    If Islam did not have a positive impact on the world. then the wide vast civilizations and most advanced culture that were spurred by Islam would never have come to pass.

    Of course many will argue that the proliferation of the Near East was inevitable, with or without Islam. Or that the advances achieved were not due to Islam as a religion but the ambition of the individuals that made them.

    But I disagree, whether Islam is truly a source of divine guidance or not. Islam established the structure, the principles, the ethics and organization which facilitated the expansion of knowledge. Islam told people "where to look" to gain information, stressing observation over simply JUST believing.

    So what happened to the Muslims? how did they lose their way? Why are they so destitute, backwards, unproductive, absent of knowledge and achievement now? Not just now but for hundreds of years?

    The reasons are complex, Both Internal and External.

    Some External reasons:

    1.) Mongol Invasion, destroyed virtually every major store of knowledge from Khwarzem to Damascus. Who knows? Maybe some of the great Muslim thinkers developed Abstract Mathematics, The details of Computer Algorithms. Maybe Muslims had their own Alan Turing?

    2.) The crusades, much the same story, but with a twist, rather than burn everything they literally stole vast libraries of books in Arabic and then had them translated to Latin This actually became the foundations for modern Chemistry.

    3.) Colonialissm, Muslims were actually on a path to recovery and started opening their doors to European trade. This actually turned out to be their own undoing. After the ascent of European dominion over Muslim lands, Muslims became disadvantaged, then successively upward mobility was only granted by conforming to European structures. which is why many of us are here in Western countries today.

    Internal Reasons:


    1.) In fighting between domestic authorities and rulers. Sadly while Islam teaches humility in leadership, that humility was mainly conveyed in theory. Only the intellectuals made an effort to reflect such a character trait. The leaders were as ego maniacal as any other leader, even today. These divisions allowed external powers to uproot Islamic primacy. Oh our short sightedness.

    2.) Materialism, the focal points were only for material growth than intellectual growth. In my opinion, I feel there's a paradox between the two I feel that if you focus on intellectual growth, material growth follows automatically due the fact you make better decisions. However if you focus on material growth, your intellectual growth suffers and your material lags behind, because you aren't focused on management and decision making.

    3.) The Rise of Narrow-Mindedness, After the Mongol invasion a New Current of thinking swept over the Muslim lands, which just promoted a narrow attitude about everything in regards to religion. They're not "literalists" but superficialists really. Muslims for many centuries sought the deeper essence of the Qur'an while this movement discouraged that.


    in Summary, Islam had benefited the world in many ways, it's just the people stopped applying it.
    Last edited by Brown Skinned Savage; 05-02-2015, 12:02 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Brown Skinned Savage View Post
      If Islam did not have a positive impact on the world. then the wide vast civilizations and most advanced culture that were spurred by Islam would never have come to pass.

      Of course many will argue that the proliferation of the Near East was inevitable, with or without Islam. Or that the advances achieved were not due to Islam as a religion but the ambition of the individuals that made them.

      But I disagree, whether Islam is truly a source of divine guidance or not. Islam established the structure, the principles, the ethics and organization which facilitated the expansion of knowledge. Islam told people "where to look" to gain information, stressing observation over simply JUST believing.

      So what happened to the Muslims? how did they lose their way? Why are they so destitute, backwards, unproductive, absent of knowledge and achievement now? Not just now but for hundreds of years?

      The reasons are complex, Both Internal and External.

      Some External reasons:

      1.) Mongol Invasion, destroyed virtually every major store of knowledge from Khwarzem to Damascus. Who knows? Maybe some of the great Muslim thinkers developed Abstract Mathematics, The details of Computer Algorithms. Maybe Muslims had their own Alan Turing?

      2.) The crusades, much the same story, but with a twist, rather than burn everything they literally stole vast libraries of books in Arabic and then had them translated to Latin This actually became the foundations for modern Chemistry.

      3.) Colonialissm, Muslims were actually on a path to recovery and started opening their doors to European trade. This actually turned out to be their own undoing. After the ascent of European dominion over Muslim lands, Muslims became disadvantaged, then successively upward mobility was only granted by conforming to European structures. which is why many of us are here in Western countries today.

      Internal Reasons:


      1.) In fighting between domestic authorities and rulers. Sadly while Islam teaches humility in leadership, that humility was mainly conveyed in theory. Only the intellectuals made an effort to reflect such a character trait. The leaders were as ego maniacal as any other leader, even today. These divisions allowed external powers to uproot Islamic primacy. Oh our short sightedness.

      2.) Materialism, the focal points were only for material growth than intellectual growth. In my opinion, I feel there's a paradox between the two I feel that if you focus on intellectual growth, material growth follows automatically due the fact you make better decisions. However if you focus on material growth, your intellectual growth suffers and your material lags behind, because you aren't focused on management and decision making.

      3.) The Rise of Narrow-Mindedness, After the Mongol invasion a New Current of thinking swept over the Muslim lands, which just promoted a narrow attitude about everything in regards to religion. They're not "literalists" but superficialists really. Muslims for many centuries sought the deeper essence of the Qur'an while this movement discouraged that.


      in Summary, Islam had benefited the world in many ways, it's just the people stopped applying it.

      Why did they stopped applying it? Their ego's doesn't want to accept God's book.

      Real Intellectuals don't have ego's. they admit to their ignorance, learn from it and apply it.

      Good examples btw.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by khushal View Post
        The proof is that they cant argue against pascals wager. Besides that the evolutionary biologist David Wilson has done extensive study on the subject and argues that religion is vital to human survival:
        http://www.cooperationcommons.com/node/349


        Your a moron, you dont know anything. You have no education. You just assume shyt that you hear from media and cant think for yourself.

        This David Wilson is a moron like you. Here you go, people disagreeing with him :https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress...oses-it-again/

        And lol at a taliban mullah living in a cave saying I have no education

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Brown Skinned Savage View Post
          If Islam did not have a positive impact on the world. then the wide vast civilizations and most advanced culture that were spurred by Islam would never have come to pass.

          Of course many will argue that the proliferation of the Near East was inevitable, with or without Islam. Or that the advances achieved were not due to Islam as a religion but the ambition of the individuals that made them.

          But I disagree, whether Islam is truly a source of divine guidance or not. Islam established the structure, the principles, the ethics and organization which facilitated the expansion of knowledge. Islam told people "where to look" to gain information, stressing observation over simply JUST believing.

          So what happened to the Muslims? how did they lose their way? Why are they so destitute, backwards, unproductive, absent of knowledge and achievement now? Not just now but for hundreds of years?

          The reasons are complex, Both Internal and External.

          Some External reasons:

          1.) Mongol Invasion, destroyed virtually every major store of knowledge from Khwarzem to Damascus. Who knows? Maybe some of the great Muslim thinkers developed Abstract Mathematics, The details of Computer Algorithms. Maybe Muslims had their own Alan Turing?

          2.) The crusades, much the same story, but with a twist, rather than burn everything they literally stole vast libraries of books in Arabic and then had them translated to Latin This actually became the foundations for modern Chemistry.

          3.) Colonialissm, Muslims were actually on a path to recovery and started opening their doors to European trade. This actually turned out to be their own undoing. After the ascent of European dominion over Muslim lands, Muslims became disadvantaged, then successively upward mobility was only granted by conforming to European structures. which is why many of us are here in Western countries today.

          Internal Reasons:


          1.) In fighting between domestic authorities and rulers. Sadly while Islam teaches humility in leadership, that humility was mainly conveyed in theory. Only the intellectuals made an effort to reflect such a character trait. The leaders were as ego maniacal as any other leader, even today. These divisions allowed external powers to uproot Islamic primacy. Oh our short sightedness.

          2.) Materialism, the focal points were only for material growth than intellectual growth. In my opinion, I feel there's a paradox between the two I feel that if you focus on intellectual growth, material growth follows automatically due the fact you make better decisions. However if you focus on material growth, your intellectual growth suffers and your material lags behind, because you aren't focused on management and decision making.

          3.) The Rise of Narrow-Mindedness, After the Mongol invasion a New Current of thinking swept over the Muslim lands, which just promoted a narrow attitude about everything in regards to religion. They're not "literalists" but superficialists really. Muslims for many centuries sought the deeper essence of the Qur'an while this movement discouraged that.


          in Summary, Islam had benefited the world in many ways, it's just the people stopped applying it.
          There are many reasons, I agree with your points, however it is also true early muslims just wanted to conquer, rather then learn.
          Even this saudi guys says this at 3:25



          With time though, muslims developed in to a civilization because they colonized many different lands. Same thing happened with many empires, be it Roman, Greek, Persian and even Mongol
          Last edited by Karachi; 05-02-2015, 10:19 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Karachi View Post
            There are many reasons, I agree with your points, however it is also true early muslims just wanted to conquer, rather then learn.
            Even this saudi guys says this at 3:25



            With time though, muslims developed in to a civilization because they colonized many different lands. Same thing happened with many empires, be it Roman, Greek, Persian and even Mongol


            I wouldn't take a Saudi guy's opinion too seriously. Especially from all the Khwarij indoctrination that goes on there.

            Prophet Muhammad said "seek knowledge even if you must go to China".

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Karachi View Post
              This David Wilson is a moron like you. Here you go, people disagreeing with him :https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress...oses-it-again/

              And lol at a taliban mullah living in a cave saying I have no education


              No offense but the tone of the "responses" are so condescending and obnoxious it compromises the objectivity of the information within it

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Karachi View Post
                There are many reasons, I agree with your points, however it is also true early muslims just wanted to conquer, rather then learn.
                Even this saudi guys says this at 3:25

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fWQ6WyAw-c

                With time though, muslims developed in to a civilization because they colonized many different lands. Same thing happened with many empires, be it Roman, Greek, Persian and even Mongol
                Conquering and learning can go hand in hand. Additionally, the world was, is, and will always be a conquer or be conquered playing field.

                800 or so years before the Caliphate was even a twinkling in the eye of Abu Bakr, Sikander, or Alexander looked to the Arabian Peninsula as one of the places left to take. He called it his "Arabia Felix" project.

                In the era of the Prophet Muhammad, both Heracles and the family of Chosroes of persia claimed Alexander's Arabia Felix region and dreams as their own. A contemporary source even details the interactions between these empires and their claims to be able to arrest people in "their Arabian" lands.

                I applaud the early Muslims hoisting Islam's banner far and wide to ensure that the faith would take root and survive against the conquer or be conquered paradigm. We see that even in the modern "politically correct era" conquering or being conquered is done under the name of political systems and isms and ideologies just as it was a thousand years ago.

                Also, I would advise that "popular opinion" not taint your attempt at a more panoramic view of history.

                In the ashes of most empires there is desolation, tribalism, localism, breakdown of federal and central authority, etc.

                Europe (especially Eastern Europe) after the ravaging wars between Austrian and Germanic empires is a good example of this. Rome saw similar events when the visigoths and other threatened them at the end of their empire. The parts of Europe Caesar had tread on began to go backwards and federate and then break down into even smaller and smaller fiefdoms and the dark ages would settle in.

                We are just barely at the cusp of a century after the Ottoman Caliphate was overturned and the various Muslim empires crumbled or experienced the doldrums of colonial era war.

                These transformations and forward leaps take hundreds of years and are the natural cycles of human progress across history.

                Also, Avicenna and Al Kindi were very keen on reconciling their faith to reason and were not, as you say, irreligious. There are pages within Avicenna's work where he writes "Wa Hasbi nal llahu wa nimaal wakeel" or the Quranic proscription that the mumin says "God suffices us and is our defender."

                Their are a host of examples from the midievel Islamic era of Scienists within the various madhabs that were concurrently scholared in religion and professional in their sciences.

                The notion that Islam (or any ism, faith, ideology, political system) takes people backward or forward automatically in isolation without considering any confounding contributions, concurrent invasions, wars, outside inteference, other sociological factors is a bit dense, dangerous, and foolish.
                Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 05-03-2015, 12:46 AM.
                "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Brown Skinned Savage View Post
                  I wouldn't take a Saudi guy's opinion too seriously. Especially from all the Khwarij indoctrination that goes on there.

                  Prophet Muhammad said "seek knowledge even if you must go to China".
                  isn't this quote from a very weak source?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Karachi View Post
                    isn't this quote from a very weak source?


                    According to the Khwarij ...see a pattern?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by کیش View Post
                      You haven't answered my prior question [MENTION=2329]Karachi[/MENTION]

                      Was not Ibliss a good jin. He hasn't done anything wrong. He just taught not prostrating (check the synanames for meaning) when he was told was more logical than God's command.

                      Atheists, agnostic, etc... have the same train of thought as Ibliss.

                      Think about it


                      What is going to happen to Ibliss? what was his purpose: a sign by the lord. A warning, a commandment.
                      you have been ducking this for days, [MENTION=2329]Karachi[/MENTION]. Your quick reply was very weak. Please answer, and don't throw a fallacy on how it is my belief (even though the notion of Ibliss has been in majority of real faiths), and not yours (even though you claimed you were muslim) or even the ego maniacal scientists,

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by کیش View Post
                        you have been ducking this for days, @Karachi. Your quick reply was very weak. Please answer, and don't throw a fallacy on how it is my belief (even though the notion of Ibliss has been in majority of real faiths), and not yours (even though you claimed you were muslim) or even the ego maniacal scientists,
                        So you are basically saying we are not allowed to ask any questions, we must follow everything blindly in religion. This is what your are saying. To me this is extremism. We should be allowed to ask things if we dont understand. I am sure God does not have (human) emotions. A creator of such a magnificent big Universe having human emotions like (anger) doesn't fit with me.

                        I believe in God, but in my opinion it is impossible for humans to understand him.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Karachi View Post
                          So you are basically saying we are not allowed to ask any questions, we must follow everything blindly in religion. This is what your are saying. To me this is extremism. We should be allowed to ask things if we dont understand. I am sure God does not have (human) emotions. A creator of such a magnificent big Universe having human emotions like (anger) doesn't fit with me.

                          I believe in God, but in my opinion it is impossible for humans to understand him.
                          What are you talking about, i have asked you a question about Ibliss, which came from logical comparisions to atheists, ego maniacs and unbelievers.. you aren't asking any questions, you are just denying something.

                          Everything is extremism to you. thats sad.

                          Please answer question on Ibliss. no need to change directions

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by khushal View Post
                            Wow, so you are admitting the rock is smarter than you. I agree.
                            You just named bunch of people from diffrent relligions who faught a fair war, not like taliban who blew them self up in market places killing their own Afghans. So people from those other relligions where actually more civilised than what Islam made out of taliban.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              [MENTION=2329]Karachi[/MENTION]

                              I fully agree with most of this man is saying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fWQ6WyAw-c

                              The truth is, Islam is a religion which guides our moral decisions in life. It is the foundation of our legal system. Therefore, It is utterly stupid to think that we can find answers about how to cure diseases or learn how to travel to other planets just by reading the Qur'an.

                              The problem of secularists and stupid and illiterate muslim masses is that both of you don't understand what religion is and what purpose it serves in a human society.

                              The fact that Western countries are evolved into powerful technologically advanced societies is because they have invested in sciences. They might have beliefs and ideas about justice and morality which we disapprove of, but they are part of humanity and their achievement is something we can learn from and impelement in our own society.

                              We won't progress by removing veils from our women and make homosexuality legal and appoint kafirs as our rulers. We won't progress by importing all other forms of corruption from the west and mimick them in order to feel enlightened and progressive.

                              We have to look at cause and effect. If we see anything of benefit for our society, we have to look at its causes, we have to look at how it was achieved. Absence of morality and abolishment of religion from society are not the causes of progress in the west. Their religiosity and their morality prior to enlightement was corrupt and evil. Thats why it needed to be abandoned. However, the enlightenemtn in the west wouldn't have been possible if it wasn't for the advancement of sciences happening in Islamic world where religion the main theme of social life.

                              So the problem of you people is that you don't understand why non-Muslims are better off and you don't understand what Islam is. These two factors are the causes of your often emotional and irrational attitude towards Muslims and Islam in general.

                              If you put your emotions aside, we may be able to have a sensible discussion where we can look for answers to the problems of our own society.
                              Originally posted by Firdousi
                              Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                When did he say that? Who narrated this? What is the authenticity of this narration?

                                Originally posted by Brown Skinned Savage View Post
                                I wouldn't take a Saudi guy's opinion too seriously. Especially from all the Khwarij indoctrination that goes on there.

                                Prophet Muhammad said "seek knowledge even if you must go to China".
                                Originally posted by Firdousi
                                Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                                Comment

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