What Islam has given to the world?

[کیش]

You haven't answered my prior question [MENTION=2329]Karachi[/MENTION]

Was not Ibliss a good jin. He hasn't done anything wrong. He just thought not prostrating (check the synonyms for meaning) when he was told was more logical than God's command.

Atheists, agnostic, etc... have the same train of thought as Ibliss.

Think about it


What is going to happen to Ibliss? what was his purpose: a sign by the lord. A warning, a commandment.

close to two weeks since [MENTION=2329]Karachi[/MENTION] been ducking this, will you ever respond or throw a red herring

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Yes I am basing what I am saying on my personal experiences in Saudi or Pakistan, but it's just not my personal experience, you just have to look at what is going around the world, I mean from what I have seen, muslims tend to be few of the biggest hypocrites out there, be it in Saudi or Pakistan. I agree that Islam/Quran does not teach being hypocrite, however muslims are exactly that.

I do agree with you that majority of muslims are not following Islam. But again my question is, what is real Islam?

Real Islam is practiced on daily basis by individuals and communities around the world. It's just the political manifestation of Islam that is being questioned in the latter part of your post.

I have spent most of my life outside Afghanistan. From what I have experienced, most Afghans are quite the opposite of what Islam teaches. But we've already discussed that and why I believe it to be so.

However, hypocrisy, treachery, deception and other immoral practices are not unique to Afghans. Look how Hindu's and other non-Muslims in poor countries behave. They are just as bad as your average corrupt Muslim when it comes to those bad habits and traits.

You have to understand the root causes of certain social phenomenon. Human beings tend to be extremely insecure and unable to trust people when they fear for their life. Poor countries where there is an absence of rule of law, government accountability and economic and financial security, people are forced to behave like crabs in a pot. This is an expression describing the behavior of crabs cooked alive in a pot. When crabs are thrown into a hot pan, they climb up on each other, one reaching over the other, trying to get out of the pot.

This is how human beings feel when they have no certainties. This is why when you enter a particular part of the world, the people suddenly become extremely rude, treacherous and deceiving. They are all forced to suffer from oppression, crime, absence of justice and security. This environment affects human mind and soul. If people live long enough in such an environment, they will all turn evil.

Now, if you go to more prosperous countries, there are is abundance of wealth, security and safety. These things affect human behavior. People don't feel threatened and thus they loosen up and their natural predisposition, their basic human behavior starts to show up to the surface.

If you follow Islam as a whole, how do we know what is the end result?

Well, if you follow Islam as a whole, you will get results in your personal individual life. Let us take one person as an example. Let's say a person in a city like Karachi stops lying, stops deceiving, stop backbiting, stops stealing, and stops committing other types of sins, he will become a better human being. He might suffer financially, but he will feel less guilt, he will have less fear and he will have less stress. His personal attitude and behavior will affect his relationship with his family and his neighbors.

This is basically the philosophy of Islam on personal level. If an individual truly submits to the will of Allah and tries with all sincerity to be a decent human being, he will benefit others. And since human beings are social beings, every individual is capable of having a positive effect on fellow human beings.

Every time there is a Islamic state of sort, we get ISIS, Alqaida, Boko Haram, Taliban etc.. types states

The emergence of militant groups in Muslim world are a result of socio-economical circumstances. People feel threatened and insecure. They find that all other non-violent means of protest against hegemony of a few have failed.

Take a look at The rise of Deobandi movement in India and Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. From the outset, both movements came into being as a reaction to Western colonialism and the gradual corrosion of Muslim identity in their society.

While both groups tried all other means of bringing about change, they eventually failed. Therefore, their decision to choose violence was a consequence of their previous failures.

These organisations and movements are a product of the circumstances and the environment they exist in. They react to threats against them and their beliefs and ideas. But simultaneously, some people need an ideological justification for their rebellion. Religion is the perfect way to justify your cause.

The fact that they fail and cause sometimes more harm than good is not because they are Muslims or because there is something wrong with Islam. The problems are much bigger and deeper rooted in their environment. Their violence and their backwards justification of certain methods and tactics are a consequence of all those factors.

I can illustrate this to you by giving you an example. When TTP attacked the Army School in Peshawar, the whole world was outraged. But when numerous mosques, schools and madrassa's in tribal area were bombed and thousands of children were killed by Pakistani army and CIA drones, nobody said anything. In fact, some of the critics of Islam and "barbarism'' as you said, were in favor of the onslaught against innocent children.

If you rape, torture, kill and harass people, what do you think they will do? dress up in white and go on hunger strike?

Obviously the rebels use Islam to justify their methods. But a rational person who is sincere and not biased will look at the claims of militants when they justify massacres by quoting religious texts. Does the Muslim law permit these actions? have the prominent jurists of in the last 1400 years supported any of these actions? No.

So why do people like you claim that Western non-Muslims are better, and more civilized when their laws permit collateral damage ( read mass killing of innocent people) and international treaties and conventions designed by them are used to facilitate neo-colonialism, torture, renditions, bombings etc?

I mean lets be honest, if you look at from outsiders point of view, Islam and muslims do indeed look very barbaric, brutal and violent.

Who is "the outsider" here? What is "Barbarism"?

If you choose a Western non-Muslim perspective, their entire world view is based on what their politicians and media say. The media in the "liberal" and "free" west are all owned by a few small corporations owned by stakeholders in Western warmongering in Middle East. They mainly report stories needed to change peoples views and perceptions so that they can be manipulated into supporting policies of oppression against Muslims.

With regards to barbarism, I will say that it is an interesting word. In ancient European cultures, they used barbarism to dehumanize their adversaries. Greeks use to call Persians as Barbarians even though, the persians were much more wealthy and far more advanced in many ways compared to Greeks. But the word barbaric was used to depict them as inhumane, uncivilized and thus suitable to be hated, killed and fought against.

When you use Barbarism to describe Muslims from a "non-Muslim" perspective, you are basically adopting the same narrative and rhetoric used in the West to justify their wars and occupations in the Muslim world. Which means, despite living in Pakistan & Saudi, your mind is entirely shaped by Western corporate media rhetoric designed to kill and rob your people.

And if violence and brutality is a problem specific to Muslims, then I would ask you, did the Muslims kill 6 million Jews? Was Stalin a Muslim who killed 40 million Russians, Ukrainians and others? Was Mao a Muslim who killed 70 million Chinese?

The amount of killing and brutality committed by non-Muslims in the 20 century alone is far worse than all Muslim crimes of entire human history.

Yet, you fail to take this into consideration. You just take the easy and convenient perception created by the Western corporate media.

Its totally irrelevant what "non-Muslims" think about Islam based on their perception of Islam because what they perceive is a product of anti-Muslim media.

Islam is not judged by what non-Muslims think or believe, Islam is judged by its teachings. Its as simple as that.

You can't really blame the non muslims and even many muslims now of thinking that. How can you prove it to be a peaceful religion and muslims to be a peaceful people. I dont see it any where

Islam is not a peaceful religion. There is war and violence in Islam as there is war and violence in the way human beings live on this planet.

War and violence are necessary because when others make war against you, you have to fight back. You may not feel compelled to use violence to protect what is yours, but most human beings will use it. War in Islam is therefore a rational means to preserve the interests of Islam and Muslims. It is not something that is designed to increase wealth of some at the expense of others. But in our history, we have seen how corrupt rulers did use wars to enrich themselves.

In the west, however, they have no reasons to fight endless wars in poor countries. India or Africa posed no threat Europe. Native Americans posed no threat to Europeans. But still, the Europeans used wars, massacred millions of people, robbed them of all their wealth and this is how their current prosperity came about.

If you think Muslims are bad because they resort to violence to defend themselves, what do you think about those who are attacking them?

Finally, I do see peaceful Muslims everywhere. There plenty of muslims who live normal lives and they are not at other peoples throats, they don't go about robbing and killing people. They live peaceful normal lives. If you haven't seen them, you need to buy glasses.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Takfir watch.

Takfeer on kafirs is a necessity for any believer in Islam and doing takfeer is an act of worship. Refraining from takfeer on those who invalidate their Islam is by itself an act of disbelief.

because takfeer is merely testifying to what Allah reveals in Qur'an. When Allah describes a particular conduct as disbelief, a person who believes in Qur'an is supposed to believe that this particular conduct is disbelief. therefore, when a person observes another person doing something which fits the description of disbelief stipulated in qur'an one is supposed to affirm that his/her observation is exactly what Allah has described.

Failing to do so, is disbelief in Qur'an. For example: Qur'an mentions polytheism and describes the belief system of polytheists, and refutes their justification of their polytheism. Now, if you see a polytheist doing what Allah describes as polytheism and you don't affirm that hits particular person is a polytheist, you are basically saying that Allah is a liar.

Therefore, I say, those who claim to be Muslim and yet refrain from making takfeer on disbelievers are worse than original disbelivers like jews, christians or atheists.

[marwat]

I can illustrate this to you by giving you an example. When TTP attacked the Army School in Peshawar, the whole world was outraged. But when numerous mosques, schools and madrassa's in tribal area were bombed and thousands of children were killed by Pakistani army and CIA drones, nobody said anything. In fact, some of the critics of Islam and "barbarism'' as you said, were in favor of the onslaught against innocent children.

there is this video of 13 children died in military strikes back in Orakzai agency. just watch the first 12 minutes,the most horrible things you will ever see.
https://archive.org/details/Moqatel-..._Urdu_4-3-2011

[کیش]

Takfeer on kafirs is a necessity for any believer in Islam and doing takfeer is an act of worship. Refraining from takfeer on those who invalidate their Islam is by itself an act of disbelief.

because takfeer is merely testifying to what Allah reveals in Qur'an. When Allah describes a particular conduct as disbelief, a person who believes in Qur'an is supposed to believe that this particular conduct is disbelief. therefore, when a person observes another person doing something which fits the description of disbelief stipulated in qur'an one is supposed to affirm that his/her observation is exactly what Allah has described.

Failing to do so, is disbelief in Qur'an. For example: Qur'an mentions polytheism and describes the belief system of polytheists, and refutes their justification of their polytheism. Now, if you see a polytheist doing what Allah describes as polytheism and you don't affirm that hits particular person is a polytheist, you are basically saying that Allah is a liar.

Therefore, I say, those who claim to be Muslim and yet refrain from making takfeer on disbelievers are worse than original disbelivers like jews, christians or atheists.

You cannot call another brother who believes in the Lord, His Prophets and Angels, and the day of judgement as a Kafir. Just on the basis of a New Year Celebration. You're using the same rhetoric as Dawlah Baghdadi on Jaysh Al-Fatah

I think you owe brother [MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION] an apology.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

wrong again. Isis makes takfeer based on assumptions and political rivalry.

You cannot call another brother who believes in the Lord, His Prophets and Angels, and the day of judgement as a Kafir. Just on the basis of a New Year Celebration. You're using the same rhetoric as Dawlah Baghdadi on Jaysh Al-Fatah

I think you owe brother @khushal an apology.

[khushal]

I said you are kafir because you and the ones with you in this matter reject hadeeth of the prophet sal allahu alayhi wasalam which clearly prohibits celebration of nawroz. You labeled an authentic hadeeth as a lie. By concensus of all scholars of Islam, this is an act of kufr.

I think you need to go to a doctor and have your head examined or your drunk. When did I reject a hadeeth and which particular hadeeth did I allegedly reject.

Go ask any scholar, he will tell you that if you reject an authentic hadeeth and label is as a fabrication just because it goes against your desire to celebrate zoroastrian festival, then you are kafir.

You should do some of that takfeer on yourself since you bear false witness intentionally lie about me fabricating a hadeeth. Please let me know where I did that.

Besides, the hadeeth was recorded more than a thousand years ago. Long before Saudis were born. So like the typical ignorant paki that you are, you have no other thing to say but to recycle the same old garbage.

Besides, Brown Savage rejects a hadeeth because it conflicts with his views. He doesn't believe in hadeeth which bans celebrating spring festival. But goes on in this thread posting a fabricated hadeeth about seeking knowledge even in china.

This is the standard of you people. You don't follow Islam, you follow your own desires. When clear textual evidence conflicts with your desires: its saudi propaganda. In other cases, you pull out narrations from your behinds in support of your silly ideologies.

All Brown Savage did was disprove your claim that Nowroz is Zorastrian or Shia.

What desires. The desire for my kaliwal to eat together, pray together for a good planting season in the village mosque on Nowraz and then go and have the oldest man in the village break ground and declare the beginning of planting season. What Islamic law are they breaking. I was not aware that criticizing your stupidity was against Islam, oh wait, it isn't.

[khushal]

You cannot call another brother who believes in the Lord, His Prophets and Angels, and the day of judgement as a Kafir. Just on the basis of a New Year Celebration. You're using the same rhetoric as Dawlah Baghdadi on Jaysh Al-Fatah

I think you owe brother [MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION] an apology.

He is using the same rhetoric as George Bush. People that criticized Bush for the invasion of Iraq, he basically called them "unpatriotic" and "unamerican." These are emotional blackmail tactics that mostly intellectually challenged people use.

What Shamlawar is doing is attributing powers of Allah on to himself. He tries to make people believe that he is the walking word of Allah and that if one disagrees with him, then that person is disagreeing with Allah.
He does this because he cant debate intellectually so he tries to intimidate. These were the same tactics used when the crowd killed Farkhunda in Kabul, the perpetrator convinces people to believe that if they don't kill the criticizer, then they are kafir.

The same way Bush was successful in invading Iraq which everyone knew had nothing to do with the 911 attacks nor had weapons of mass destruction but people were to afraid to speak up because they didn't want to be portrayed as unpatriotic or unamerican.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

I tend to respect the views and opinions of people who openly oppose Islam more than those of people like Khushal.

I'd rather see an honest kaafir then a deluded person who thinks he is Muslim.

[marwat]

Shamlawar is pushing everyone outside the circle of islam and if that trend of shamlawar continue, then all muslim will be outside of this ring one day including shamlawar too. the only thing inside this ring will be the Quran. may God have mercy on you shmlawar.

[randolph85]

A kaffir troll named badlun created a worthless thread which has gotten believing Muslims to argue against each other.

A trick of the kuffar which they have been using ever since they knew of our existence and immense devotion. They use this devotion to divide us, don't fall for these tricks and these minor differences should not be grounds for insulting one another or casting people out of Iman.

[کیش]

I tend to respect the views and opinions of people who openly oppose Islam more than those of people like Khushal.

I'd rather see an honest kaafir then a deluded person who thinks he is Muslim.

Ya Akhi, You are transgressing your limits. May God, the all-mighty guide you back to the straight path.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

The hadith prohibiting Nawroz is recorded more than 1000 years ago by hadith scholars. Muslim Jurists like Mullah Ali Qari al Hanafi have used the hadith to derive rulings on the ones who celebrate Nawroz.

When someone like Khushal or Brown Savage claim that the hadith is a fabrication, they are basically saying that the hadith scholars lied upon the Prophet sal allahu alayhi wasalam and the jurists who derived rulings from the fabricated hadith are equally responsible in this act of kufr. Because telling a lie upon Prophet Muhammed sal allahu alayhi wasalam is an act of kufr by concensus of all Muslims.

So basically, these guys are calling scholars who died centuries ago KAAFIRS!

But hey, why would any of you care? You don't know those scholars and you don't even know their contribution to Islam.

But you do know Khushal and people like him. And it hurts your feelings to see someone calling them kaafirs.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The hadith prohibiting Nawroz is recorded more than 1000 years ago by hadith scholars. Muslim Jurists like Mullah Ali Qari al Hanafi have used the hadith to derive rulings on the ones who celebrate Nawroz.

When someone like Khushal or Brown Savage claim that the hadith is a fabrication, they are basically saying that the hadith scholars lied upon the Prophet sal allahu alayhi wasalam and the jurists who derived rulings from the fabricated hadith are equally responsible in this act of kufr. Because telling a lie upon Prophet Muhammed sal allahu alayhi wasalam is an act of kufr by concensus of all Muslims.

So basically, these guys are calling scholars who died centuries ago KAAFIRS!

But hey, why would any of you care? You don't know those scholars and you don't even know their contribution to Islam.

But you do know Khushal and people like him. And it hurts your feelings to see someone calling them kaafirs.

I've been hunting this hadith:

refer to discussion here:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthr...453#post764453

Can you provide it (I'm not being facetious) - I really am looking for it and for its isnad - i.e. does it reach back to a companion or the Prophet?

[khushal]

A kaffir troll named badlun created a worthless thread which has gotten believing Muslims to argue against each other.

A trick of the kuffar which they have been using ever since they knew of our existence and immense devotion. They use this devotion to divide us, don't fall for these tricks and these minor differences should not be grounds for insulting one another or casting people out of Iman.

People like Shamlawar and Badlun and Karachi are different faces of the same coin. Go back in this thread and other posts of Karachi and Badlun and they use the same emotional blackmail tactics as Shamlawar. They use statements like you are a "terrorist" or "wahabi" or "salafi" or "deobandi" or "pedophile mullah" etc.

These are mentally sick people who are intellectually challenged and miserable. They are only happy when others are miserable like they themselves are. I know many people like them in real life and every time they enter a room with smiling people, their presence changes every ones mood and makes the smiles disappear.