Islam and Women

[Al Hanif]

By your logic sir you also believe in a God who allows rape to occur since Ilsam accepts free will and says clearly all good and all evil come from god...I would not attribute the actions of Men to God who endowed them with free will... that is having your cake and eating it... the fault lies with the men in that instance... you however believe God gives you the permission to rape POW... sick sick sick...

Doesn't matter what I believe in.

You believe in a God that allows rape to happen.

That's all I need to know.

[Dreamer]

Doesn't matter what I believe in.

You believe in a God that allows rape to happen.

That's all I need to know.

again I never said I believed in God or denied I believe in God... you make waaaaay too many assumptions... focus on your rape fabtasy and seek help... its not healthy.. perhaps if you masturbated you wouldnt be so obsessed about forcing yourself on a woman

[Al Hanif]

again I never said I believed in God or denied I believe in God... you make waaaaay too many assumptions... focus on your rape fabtasy and seek help... its not healthy.. perhaps if you masturbated you wouldnt be so obsessed about forcing yourself on a woman

I don't masturbate. Thanks for your concern.

Now you have been proved to an hypocrite with poor intellectual abilities.

A sick person according to your own standards.

Case closed.

[Dreamer]

I don't masturbate. Thanks for your concern.

Now you have been proved to an hypocrite with poor intellectual abilities.

A sick person according to your own standards.

Case closed.

sure you dont maybe thats your problem... you should do it more.. might help with those rape fantasies you harbour... sexual frustration leads to bad things :P

[Al Hanif]

sure you dont maybe thats your problem... you should do it more.. might help with those rape fantasies you harbour... sexual frustration leads to bad things :P

I am glad we can come to an agreement that you have been intellectually defeated.

Now, back to your rectal examinations. Wouldn't want to smell your fingers.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I wont hold my breath... stop projecting your own actions on others... read your "holy" book

I thought you said a whole lot of ammo, just finished work and still there's nothing. Which basically demonstrates your defeat.

Talk about projection.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

The sad reality is that the madhabs allow it, the quran allows it, the hadith speak of it... yet you seem to think your intellect is more and say its not allowed... I find that highly amusing but typical of a person who is 1) not fully aware of all that his / her religion teaches and 2)someone who cherry picks their religion...

I thought you had a solid counter argument brewing, losing steam or you're just aware you've been outmatched and don't want to embarrass yourself further

I'm waiting for you to give the full analysis of these hadith, their background, whether or not the husbands of these women were dead ...and here's another one I forgot. Whether these women were actually slaves or just captives.

So many things you need to establish. I wonder if you can handle the task

[Dreamer]

Lool don't flatter yourself... I'm just sleepy and lazy ill cream you when I'm
Ready... Unlike you I have a life

[RevolutionThroughReason]

LOL Barking dog seldom bites, that being you of course .

[Dreamer]

Lets deal with the issue of who one can marry first the quran has the usual social bans on marriage like mother/son etc except where Mohammed got the fancy to marry his daughter in law from his Adopted son and then a revelation came permitting it... thats a whole separate issue in itself and not going to be delved into but did raise a few eyebrows at the time
"Do not marry (you men) the ‘mushrikaat’ until they believe; for even a believing slave woman is better than a ‘mushrika’, even if you like her. And do not marry (you women) the ‘mushrikeen’ until they believe. A believing slave man is better than a mushrik, even if you like him. These invite to the fire, while God invites to Paradise and forgiveness, with His permission, and He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may remember" 2:221 now here its clearly stated a muslim is preferable to a non muslim and a slave is better in marriage to a free non believer (because hey while screwing a slave outside of marriage is alllowed it doesnt bar them from marriage) anyway here its clearly stated dont marry a kafir slave .... now there are NUMEROUS hadith which show how muslims captured women as war booty and then enslaved them - Al Hanif is of the opinion that God has permitted muslims to rape them but hey he has issues... now this revolution throughreason person says that slaves were married ... hmmm if you had kafir slaves and the hadith talks about coitus with them how were they married when there is a clear rule against marriage with undesirables ??
lets focus on quran allowances for SEX (not talking about marriage) with slaves...
"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" 33:50 here wives are halal for sex AND (KEY WORD is AND) slaves... so clearly slaves were NOT married but open game for sex
"Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame" 23:5-6 here a clear distinction is made between WIVES and slaves both allowed for sex
so a muslim woman and a muslim slave are fit for marriage but a non muslim polytheist slave is only fit for sex...

these hadith are from late medinian period when the marriage laws had been established so here we have some "noble" companions talking about sex with slaves
Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.


there is a BAN on pimping your slaves out... thats the hadith which you posted...this is what haraam sex for a slave is... its perfectly halal for a slave to have sex with her master- the quran does not bother on getting her into a marriage but she is property which can be sold ... so why the anger of if a slave has sex outside of her master??? well thats because any children belong to the master which he assumes are his... further it will devalue his property
Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi a commentator of the quran also mentions that Two categories of women have been excluded from the general command of guarding the private parts: (a) wives, (b) women who are legally in one’s possession, i.e. slave-girls. Thus the verse clearly lays down the law that one is allowed to have sexual relation with one’s slave-girl as with one’s wife, the basis being possession and not marriage. If marriage had been the condition, the slave-girl also would have been included among the wives, and there was no need to mention them separately

This commentator also adds that even married women who become slaves are fair game to their masters... now ask yourself would a married woman consent to sex with someone who has captured her???
"And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war)" 4:24

I will if you want quote your four sunni imams on sex with slaves OUTSIDE of marriage which is your objection since your deluded that sex with slaves comes after marriage... despite the fact that slaves were captured war booty- the quran does not allow marriage with a non believer slave but does allow sex with her so how can she marry when she is a non muslim

[Dreamer]

The mujaahideen take possession of slave women as they take possession of the spoils of war. It is permissible for the one who gains possession of male or female slaves to sell them. In both cases – owning a slave through battle or through purchase – it is not permissible for a man to have intercourse with a slave woman until after she has had one menstrual cycle from which it may be established that she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant, then he must wait until she has given birth.

It was narrated that Ruwayfi’ ibn Thaabit al-Ansaari said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say on the day of Hunayn: “It is not permissible for any man who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to irrigate the crop of another else – meaning to have intercourse with a woman who is pregnant. And it is not permissible for a man who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to have intercourse with a captured woman until he has established that she is not pregnant. And it is not permissible for a man who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to sell any booty until it has been shared out.” from a sunni fiqh book known as adwa al bayaan and abu dawood hadith

[Dreamer]

In short sex with slaves is allowed according to Islam... but only for men...

[RevolutionThroughReason]

"Do not marry (you men) the ‘mushrikaat’ until they believe; for even a believing slave woman is better than a ‘mushrika’, even if you like her. And do not marry (you women) the ‘mushrikeen’ until they believe. A believing slave man is better than a mushrik, even if you like him. These invite to the fire, while God invites to Paradise and forgiveness, with His permission, and He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may remember" 2:221 now here its clearly stated a muslim is preferable to a non muslim and a slave is better in marriage to a free non believer (because hey while screwing a slave outside of marriage is alllowed it doesnt bar them from marriage)

You''re assuming your premises is true; you have to prove your premise first before you can assume it. As we have established you had not done that. Also when was the period this specific revelation came was it after all the marriage verses or in the beginning stages of Islam , the middle stages? You have no qualified the context.Thus it is as nebulous an argument as your others. Moving on.

... hmmm if you had kafir slaves and the hadith talks about coitus with them how were they married when there is a clear rule against marriage with undesirables ??

Who said that the women in the hadiths in question were mushirks? Faulty assumption. Jewish and Christian women are marriageable in standard Islamic rulings provided they're MuwaHHidat (Monotheistic).

lets focus on quran allowances for SEX (not talking about marriage) with slaves...
"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" 33:50 here wives are halal for sex AND (KEY WORD is AND) slaves... so clearly slaves were NOT married but open game for sex

You're just repeating the same argument you made in previous posts; as I explained. The mere fact that Wives and Slaves are mentioned seprately does not automatically indicative that you can have sex with your slaves w/o wedlock. In fact if you read the quote you cited, it gives stipulations does not actually say slaves are separate from wives. Read it again ...."We have made lawful to thee wives ....TO WHO you hast paid dowers AND those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war who Allah has assigned to thee"

AGAIN ...WIVES .....Who you paid dowers and Those FROM THOSE among the prisoners of war. Your argument is thereby inconclusive.

"Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame" 23:5-6 here a clear distinction is made between WIVES and slaves both allowed for sex

The Arabic statement of these verses is as follows

Wa allatheena hum li furujihim hafedhoona Illa .ala azwajihim aw ma malakat aymanuhum fa 'innahum ghayru malummeena

The terms li furujihim hafedhoona means in Arabic LITERALLY "they have guarded their private parts". This expression does not explicitly ONLY refer to sex but anything related to the private organs whether it is sex OR exposure. Furthermore the mere fact they're stated separately demonstrates nothing, In Islam a man's "furuj" is considered from his navel to his knees. Meaning he cannot be exposed. Read about Islamic restrictions on male dress.

so a muslim woman and a muslim slave are fit for marriage but a non muslim polytheist slave is only fit for sex...

This is just your commentary, not evidentially supported.

these hadith are from late medinian period when the marriage laws had been established so here we have some "noble" companions talking about sex with slaves

Where is the confirmation that these are from the late Median period,? reference please?

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.

Again same flaw in making faulty assumptions. These women were captives yes, but no indication that they had been made "slaves" or that they were not married.

You need more detail than this sir.

there is a BAN on pimping your slaves out... thats the hadith which you posted...this is what haraam sex for a slave is..

Nope read the hadith I posted again, you are clearly feigning ignorance here. The Hadith refers to a situation of forced fornication, There's no indication that ANY sale r pimping went on. The VERSE however uses the word Al-Bighai, But in Islam, Al-Bighai can mean prostitution or sexual immorality in general.

And I can actually demonstrate that this from the English- Arabic dictionary.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2002.02.0016:entry=bagiY~N&highlight=prostitution

بَغِىٌّ بغى بغي غي , accord. to some, of the measure فَعِيلٌ; accord. to others, of the measure فَعُولٌ, originally بَغُوىٌ; [if of the former, originally meaning “ sought; ” and if of the latter, originally meaning “ seeking; ”] and therefore [in either case] not admitting the affix ة: (TA A fornicatress, an adulteress, or a prostitute; (JK, S, Mgh, Msb, K as also ↓ بَغُوٌّ [of the measure فَعُولٌ, and therefore anomalous, like نَهُوٌّ]: (M, K بَغِىٌّ is not applied to a man, (Lh, Msb,) nor بَغِيَّةٌ to a woman: (Lh, TA pl. بَغَايَا. (S, Mgh, Msb.) [See an ex. voce مَهْرٌ.] ― -b2- Also A female slave, (JK, S, K,) whether she be a fornicatress or an adulteress or a prostitute or not; (TA not meant to imply revilement, though originally applied to female slaves because of their prostitution of themselves: (S or a free woman who is a fornicatress or an adulteress or a prostitute: so in the K: but correctly, or a fornicatress or an adulteress or a prostitute, whether free or a slave: (TA and a female singer, though chaste; because of fornication's being originally attributable to such a person: (Msb pl. as above. (JK, S, TA.) One says, قَامَتْ عَلَى رُؤُسِهِمُ البَغَايَا [The female slaves stood over their heads]. (S.) ― -b3- بَغَايَا also signifies The scouts, or companies of scouts, that precede an army: (S, K, TA but the sing. of this is ↓ بَغِيَّةٌ . (TA.)
An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863.

. its perfectly halal for a slave to have sex with her master- the quran does not bother on getting her into a marriage but she is property which can be sold ...

Already debunked that claim though as 24:33 commands marrying slave women.

so why the anger of if a slave has sex outside of her master??? well thats because any children belong to the master which he assumes are his... further it will devalue his property

This would be assuming that the so called "slave girl" would be bearing children for her master. So your argument wouldn't hold since you're citing cases where they were avoiding conception.

Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi a commentator of the quran

His commentary is deemed unreliable amongst Muslims because he disparages the Israelite Prophets.

If marriage had been the condition, the slave-girl also would have been included among the wives, and there was no need to mention them separately

You're just repeating the same argument you made earlier. in the previous posts. This is your assumption that the mere mention of two classes of women implies that one is not required to wedlock prior to intercourse.

I will if you want quote your four sunni imams on sex with slaves OUTSIDE of marriage wh

Weren't you supposed to do that in the first place? All you did here is repeat your previous arguments WITH more commentary rather than actually letting the evidence speak for itself.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

It was narrated that Ruwayfi’ ibn Thaabit al-Ansaari said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say on the day of Hunayn: “It is not permissible for any man who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to irrigate the crop of another else – meaning to have intercourse with a woman who is pregnant. And it is not permissible for a man who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to have intercourse with a captured woman until he has established that she is not pregnant. And it is not permissible for a man who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to sell any booty until it has been shared out.” from a sunni fiqh book known as adwa al bayaan and abu dawood hadith

It just said captured woman, it says nothing about whether they married or not. Inconclusive.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

In short sex with slaves is allowed according to Islam... but only for men...

In short you did an awful job, just repeated the same claim and even some of the same references you did in your previous posts and still made the samw logical errors with inprecise statements.

And thereby your claim is still unsupported.