Anti-Ahmadiyyah Thread

[Saif ul Haq]

First off, I love to see ahadith where our beloved Prophet (saw) refers to Hadhrat Isa (as) being taken alive into the heavens. Please provide the ahadith, at least.

Narrated By Abu Huraira: Rasoolullah said, “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya. Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts." [Bukhari Vol.3, Book 34, #425] & [Muslim Book 1, #287; #289]

Narrated By Abu Huraira: Rasoolullah said, “The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts). – [Bukhari Vol.3, Book 43, #656]


Narrated By Abu Huraira: Rasoolullah said “How will you be when the son of Mary descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel" [Bukhari Vol.4, Book 55, #658] & [Muslim Book 1, #290; #291]


Jabir b. ‘Abdullah reported: I heard Rasoolullah say: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims’) commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honor from Allah for this Ummah." [Muslim Book 1, #293]

Second, are you saying that tawaffa has never been used in the Quran to mean death?

http://www.pashtunforums.com/93711-post102.html

Thirdly, 43:61 does not refer to Hadrat Isa (as) physically, or directly. We can interpreted as:

He was the Sign of the Hour for the Jewish teaching.

1. Islam has superceded that teaching now.
2. Hadhrat Isa (as) was the last prophet to be sent to the Children of Israel

From verse 57 and onwards Jesus is mentioned by name and the he is the subject of discussion in the following verses. There is no doubt it was referring to Jesus and his return as it says "tamtarunna" - the indicative "noon" has been omitted for apocopation together with the "waaw" of the third person plural on account of two unvowelled consonants coming together

Fourthly, Could you please translate the following (5:116-8)

And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

[Saif ul Haq]

http://www.pashtunforums.com/89620-post25.html

This post proves Mirza to be a phony, a Prophet would never have contradictions in his beliefs or teachings

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Narrated By Abu Huraira: Rasoolullah said, “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya. Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts." [Bukhari Vol.3, Book 34, #425] & [Muslim Book 1, #287; #289]

Narrated By Abu Huraira: Rasoolullah said, “The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts). – [Bukhari Vol.3, Book 43, #656]


Narrated By Abu Huraira: Rasoolullah said “How will you be when the son of Mary descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel" [Bukhari Vol.4, Book 55, #658] & [Muslim Book 1, #290; #291]


Jabir b. ‘Abdullah reported: I heard Rasoolullah say: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims’) commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honor from Allah for this Ummah." [Muslim Book 1, #293]

These ahadith mentioned descend. Where does it mention "ascend?"
"Descend" has also been used for Hadhrat Muhammad (saw).

]
http://www.pashtunforums.com/93711-post102.html

Link not working.

From verse 57 and onwards Jesus is mentioned by name and the he is the subject of discussion in the following verses. There is no doubt it was referring to Jesus and his return as it says "tamtarunna" - the indicative "noon" has been omitted for apocopation together with the "waaw" of the third person plural on account of two unvowelled consonants coming together

It can be referred to Hadhrat Isa (as), but not necessarily. Also, "hour" is not limited to the latter days.

And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

If you are going to translate "tawaffa" as going up then how could he ever come down? He will tell Allah that he did not know what happened after. Hence, either way, he will not come back down.

So, might want to reconsider your translation?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Thanks, it is a repeated post.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

A prophet is a messenger and a messenger is a prophet. It is impossible to be one and not the other.

It is not true that a messenger brings a law and a prophet does not bring a law.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not bring a new law. He is following the Law of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw). No new law can come after the Quran. This is what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad believes in.

[شمله ور خراساني]

A prophet is a messenger and a messenger is a prophet. It is impossible to be one and not the other.

It is not true that a messenger brings a law and a prophet does not bring a law.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not bring a new law. He is following the Law of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw). No new law can come after the Quran. This is what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad believes in.

well, he did abolish Jihad. While in the Shariah of Muhammad saww Jihad is one of the most important things. I mean several long surah's of the Qur'an are dedicated to the rulings regarding Jihad. Fighting the disbelievers and killing invaders and crusaders is prescribed upon Muslims.

Qadianism wanted to abolish this because of the masters of Qadianis, the British empire were tired of Muslims fighting them.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

So if he brought absolutely nothing new to our tables, why should we follow him?

logically speaking, If I begin to act pious like Mirza why I be considered someone like him as well?

The question that would arise from you statement is: Why are we waiting for the Messiah in the first place, if there is no new teaching to follow the Quran?

[شمله ور خراساني]

The question that would arise from you statement is: Why are we waiting for the Messiah in the first place, if there is no new teaching to follow the Quran?

because the messiah is going to kill the Dajjal.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

well, he did abolish Jihad. While in the Shariah of Muhammad saww Jihad is one of the most important things. I mean several long surah's of the Qur'an are dedicated to the rulings regarding Jihad. Fighting the disbelievers and killing invaders and crusaders is prescribed upon Muslims.

Qadianism wanted to abolish this because of the masters of Qadianis, the British empire were tired of Muslims fighting them.

I think you got it wrong. He did not abolish it, he postponed it.

But how did that affect you?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

because the messiah is going to kill the Dajjal.

Do you honestly think brother that Hadhrat Isa (as) is in the sky waiting to fight a huge monster?

[شمله ور خراساني]

I think you got it wrong. He did not abolish it, he postponed it.

But how did that affect you?

Postpone it till when? Didn't he write in his books that Muslims should obey the British?

He was a servant of the British. And he wanted Muslims to be subdued to British rule.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Do you honestly think brother that Hadhrat Isa (as) is in the sky waiting to fight a huge monster?

yes. I believe so. And I also believe that Ghulam Ahmed was a lesser Dajjal. Like Musaylamah Ibn Habib.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Postpone it till when? Didn't he write in his books that Muslims should obey the British?

He was a servant of the British. And he wanted Muslims to be subdued to British rule.

He was saying that you should not fight a government that gives you all your rights. He was saying that under the British Muslims are better off then they were under the Sikhs and the Hindus.

I am pretty sure that you would agree with me that we should not fight a just government.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

yes. I believe so. And I also believe that Ghulam Ahmed was a lesser Dajjal. Like Musaylamah Ibn Habib.

Could it ever be possible that the Dajjal is a metaphoric description of the rulers and powers of the latter days?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Dearest sister, investigation is the key. Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is the chosen one, so was Hadhrat Musa (as), they were not recognized at first glance.