Anti-Ahmadiyyah Thread

[Master Khan]

Well, the known facts are that he died of diarrhea and that he died in Lahore.
he claimed to be the second coming of Christ, which of course he was not. But even then, he managed to pursuade a small minority to follow him and set up a new religion.
the guy is not a 'Nabi' or a 'Rasool'...he died while taking a crap!!.

[Badlun]

I shall be grateful if you write here the refutation or may be the resumen of the book you are mentioning otherwise I ll be able to read the book but other friends may not benifit from that and also we have to discuss the issues here being members of this community.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Insha Allah, I will do as you have requested.

[Badlun]

Thanks and also give some share in the cash award of 250. 000 dollars as promised by the author for the refutaion ,,hahaaaaa just a joke

[inqilab]

Saif ul Haq referred to Al Mawrid, so I just showed him what he convenient left off.

Do you have a link to Lisanul Arab or any other good dictionaries, since you do not want to follow a kafir's.

Further, the same verse (5:117) will be used by Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) on the Day of Judgment.

LOL he did not leave anything off genius. What he quoted is on the same page. And the same right side.

He defined what tawaffa meant. Which means to take (receive, get, obtain). It is on the same page for gods sake. At least pretend to read it. LOL

Then he went on to say how it could mean death and sleep too. Which you obviously ignored. And pretended he was dishonest. When we already established you are the actual liar. You lied about Allahs Messenger [s]. You lied about islam and ibraheem. You lied about me. And you just lied abotu saif ul haq that he was being dishonest when he was not. And you will continue to lie.

Then you will go and cry to the admins when someone catches on to your lies LOL. And admins are naive enough to believe you.

Hypocrites.

[inqilab]

Its already refuted the ahmadi belief of jesus dying. In this post http://www.pashtunforums.com/89606-post23.html

Where is the Grave of Jesus?
Question for Ahmadis!!

Dear Qadiani/Ahmadi Readers!

Peace be on those who follow the hidayah

Mirza Gulam Ahmad Qadiani, the founder of Ahmadiyya Movement claimed:

"God has revealved to me in his special inspiration that Maseeh ibne Maryam is dead." (Tauzeeh-e-Maram, Roohani Khazain vol 3 p.402)
"I have been informed about the grave of Eisa (in Kashmir). And I have been informed by Holy Quran and God's Revelation to me about the Death of Jesus." (Roohani Khazain vol 18 p.358, 361)


Is this the tomb of Jesus?

"Tomb of Christ" (7/24) At the very center of Christianity, a mystery as old as the Christian faith is closer to being solved. An archaeological team from Oxford University has been hard at work attempting to prove that Jerusalem's Church of the Holy Sepulchre is the actual location of Christ's burial. After a decade, Martin Biddle and his wife, Birthe KjØlbye-Biddle, have unearthed the remains of earlier structures on the site and an original rock-cut tomb hidden within the walls of the present 19th-century edicule, or "little house." Believed to mark the site of Christ's tomb, the edicule has never, until now, been subject to any form of archaeological study or scientific investigation.
PBS Previews


What would you say to this?
Or is the Tomb of Jesus in Kashmir?

Another website called 'Tomb of Jesus' goes to extreme length to prove that Tomb of Jesus is in Kashmir. Although the owner of website (Tombmaster) denies that he belong to any religious group, but soon the cat comes out of the bag when the owner of this website confesses on Ahmadi forums that he is Ahmadi and is very close to Mirza Tahir, the Qadiani Khalifa. He writes:

"After surviving the crucifixion, Jesus Christ arrived in Kashmir, where he took up residence for the remainder of his life. There he ministered to Israelite tribes of the area, continuing to preach. He eventually married a woman named Maryan, who bore him children, and, so the theory states, he died at the age of 120 years. His tomb [see picture of his tomb on our home page] is located in the Mohala Kan Yar district of the capital city of Srinagar, Jammu & Kashmir, Northern India, and is called the Roza Bal ("The Site of the Honored Tomb")."
(http://www.tombofjesus.com/Welcomeall.htm)

Tombmaster further adds:

"This site, and the information it contains, is NOT the property of any particular belief or ism or organization, nor is the idea of a post-crucifixion life of Jesus the invention of any ONE individual."
(http://www.tombofjesus.com/Welcomeall.htm)



But he confessed in other places his religious affliation:

"It is SHAMEFUL that a man who claims to have been BORN an Ahmadi DOES NOT see the significance of Imam Mahdi! If that's what it means to be born an Ahmadi, THEN I AM GLAD that I was not born one, and that I converted LATER!!" (source: posting of 9/9/2000 on Lahore Ahmadiyya Message Board)

"Because I just happen to believe like the Ahmadis believe: That Hazrat Ahmad was a *true* prophet of God who cannot be placed in such categories." (source: posting of 02/11/2000 on Lahore Ahmadiyya Message Board)



"Let us "suppose" that I am a black Ahmadiyya. What the HELL do I CARE what some Punjabi Pakistan feels about me? I created my website, for instance, WITHOUT their help OR permission. And the Ahmadiyyan leader (or so I hear) has lent his personal approval to the website." (source= posting of 6/6/2000 on Lahore Ahmadiyya Message Board)

Now the cat is out of the bag. Anyway....

All Qadiani followers (Lahori as well as Qadianis) believe that Jesus Christ (Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam AS) died and buried in Kashmir. What is the basis for this belief? Of course, because your founder, your prophet, your promised messiah, your imam mahdi etc. etc. Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani, said so. Am I right?

Tombmaster says:

"The significance of Hazrat Ahmad is very clear, and is also admitted by anybody who reads about and understands the history of the theory of a post-crucifixion life of Jesus: Hazrat Ahmad is the recognized *first* person who presented a coherent and unified exposition of this theory. Every Jesus-in-India writer recognizes this. He uncovered the works of Mulla Nadri and others; he used his powerful spiritual AND rational gifts, collecting information from Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists and other sources, including medical books of history, oral history, written history, etc., and he pulled this all together in book form and in a coherent manner. *Nobody* in human history had done that before him. This is why he is entitled to be recognized as that person who the Prophet Muhammad stated would "break the cross.""
(source: posting of 9/9/2000 on Lahore Ahmadiyya Message Board)

Has any Qadiani ever analysed the writings of Mirza Ghulam, to know what exactly he had written about the site of burial of Jesus? I am sure none of you had done that, and if you have then they are all accessory to a massive deception campaign, or else delibrately avoiding to face the truth.

Now let me tell you what I discovered in the writings of Mirza Ghulam. You are of course free to agree or disagree with me, but please, please, only after you have verified the quotes that I have given. My task is nothing but to convey the message, after that it is between you and Allah.

In his various books, Mirza Ghulam A. Qadiani, had given three different locations for the Grave of Jesus. Which one is correct?

1. Jesus AS buried in Al-Khaleeli (Gulailee).

In 1891 Mirza wrote a huge volume, Izala Auham, which ran upto 948 pages. In the second volume of this book, he wrote a detailed, mind boggling explanation trying to prove that Jesus was not taken physically to heavens (as the Muslims believe), but that he was taken down from the cross, went to his native place, Al-Khalil, died and buried there. He writes:

"This is true that Maseeh went to his native place, and died there, but this is not true that the same body which was buried, became alive again..... verse 3 chapter I of Acts is a testimony about the natural death of Jesus that took place in Al-Khaleeli. After this death, Maseeh was visible to his students as KASHF (vision) for 40 days." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.353-354)
1. Grave of Jesus in Quds

However, 3 years later, in 1894, Mirza changed his story. In his other book, Atmam-e-Hujjat (Roohani Khazain volume 8) he once again tried to prove that Eisa Ibne Maryam AS is dead. In an attempt to prove that, he gave the testimony of one of his rare Arab Disciple, Molvi Mohammed Al-Saeedi Trabilisi Al-Shaami. He wrote:

"This has to be admitted that Hazrat Eisa is also dead, and interestingly enough the grave of Hazrat Eisa is also in Syria and for further clarity, in the footnote, I include the testimony of My brother, My lover in Allah, Molvi Mohammad Al-Saeedi Trablisi. He is a resident of Tripoli, in the Country of Syria and in his area is the Grave of Hazrat Essa AS (Jesus). If you say that Grave is a fake, then you must provide the proof of this fake, and prove that when this fraud took place. And in this event we will not be sure about the graves of any prophet and trust will be lost, and we will have to say that all those burial places are fake." (Atmam E Hujat, Page: 18-19, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.296-297, dated 1894)

Letter of Molvi Mohammed Al-Saeedi Trabilisi:

"O Hazrat Maulana & My Imam. Assalamo alaikum wa rehmatullah wa barakaatohu. I pray that may Allah give you cure (I recieved this letter of Shaami Saheb during my illness) Whatever you have asked about the Grave of Eisa alaihe assalam and other events, thus I am writing to you in detail, and that is this: Hazrat Eisa alaih assalam was born in Bait-ul-Lehm and between Bait-ul-Lehm and Quds there is a distance of thirty miles and the Grave of Hazrat Eisa alaihe assalam is in the Country of Quds, and is present till now, and there is a Church built on it, and that church is the largest church of all churches, and inside it is the Grave of Hazrat Eisa and in the same church is the Grave of Maryam, the truthful. And both graves are separate." (Atmam-ul-Hujjat, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.299)

That seems to settle the matter. As far as Mirza Saheb was concerned, Jesus was dead and his grave was in al-Quds.

1. Jesus' Grave in Kashmir: However 8 years later, Mirza changed the story once again. Now he started propagating his new theory: Jesus is buried in Kashmir.


"It is proved with certianity that Essa AS (Jesus) migrated to Kashmir. After this Allah liberated him with his blessing and he kept on living there for a long time until he died and was included among the deads. And his burial place is still in the city of Srinagar (Tomb of Yus Asif)" (Al-Huda, 12 June 1902, Page 109)

"I have been informed about the grave of Eisa (in Kashmir)." (Roohani Khazain vol 18 p.358, 361)

"The grave of Jesus is in Kashmir." (Roohani Khazain vol 18 p. 320, Nuzool-e-Maseeh, printed in 1909, after the death of Mirza)

So now we have three different statements of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani regarding the grave of Jesus. My question to Qadianis is which is the correct one? Al-Khalil or Quds or Kashmir?

Wassalam on those who follow the hidayah

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

LOL he did not leave anything off genius. What he quoted is on the same page. And the same right side.

He defined what tawaffa meant. Which means to take (receive, get, obtain). It is on the same page for gods sake. At least pretend to read it. LOL

Then he went on to say how it could mean death and sleep too. Which you obviously ignored. And pretended he was dishonest. When we already established you are the actual liar. You lied about Allahs Messenger [s]. You lied about islam and ibraheem. You lied about me. And you just lied abotu saif ul haq that he was being dishonest when he was not. And you will continue to lie.

Then you will go and cry to the admins when someone catches on to your lies LOL. And admins are naive enough to believe you.

Hypocrites.

Do you ponder before you type or are you just trigger happy and love to copy and paste?

[inqilab]

THE RAISING OF THE PROPHET 'ISA (AS) INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD IN THE QUR'AN

The lives of God's chosen Messengers contain many messages and lessons for all people, especially when we study their encounters, their troubles, and their great struggles. The Qur'an cites Jesus as an example for people to follow, because of how he conducted his life and his struggle, and because of his great virtue.

Jesus' birth, life, and ascension to God's presence are all miracles that the Qur'an reveals in some detail. Although God reveals the narratives of many Prophets, Jesus, whom God supported with superior wisdom, is set apart from the others in several aspects, among them that he spoke even in the cradle, and that he was the vehicle for countless miracles while he was in this world. That his status is different also can be deduced from the fact that he was raised to God's presence and that the Qur'an indicates strongly his second coming.

The Qur'an reveals that the unbelievers devised a plot to take Jesus' life. According to some sources, a group of bigoted Jewish scribes and priests bribed Judas Iscariot, one of the disciples, to betray him, after which they would arrest Jesus and hand him over to the Romans. According to the same sources, the priests did not have the power to sentence someone to death and so had to make another plan to agitate the Roman regime. Thus, they portrayed Jesus as being hostile to the Roman leadership, for the Romans were highly sensitive and ruthless when confronted with dissidents. But these priests failed, for the Qur'an relates:

They [unbelievers] planned and God planned. But God is the best of planners. (Surah Al 'Imran, 3:54)

As the verses reveal, they plotted and moved to kill Jesus. However, their plot failed and they ended up killing a look-alike. During this event, God raised Jesus up to His presence:

And [on account of] their saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Messenger of God." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. God raised him to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Surat An-Nisa', 4:157-158)

Many people believe in the widespread assumption that the Romans crucified Jesus. The Roman soldiers and Jewish priests who arrested Jesus are said to have killed him on the cross. Although some historical Christian sects such as Docetism have denied this, today, the world of Christianity completely believes it, as well as that he was resurrected three days later and, after several brief meetings with his disciples and others, ascended into the heavens.

The Qur'an, however, says otherwise. The reality revealed in the verses is clear. The Romans, abetted by some Jews' agitation, attempted to kill Jesus but did not succeed. The expression "but it was made to seem so to them" reveals this fact. God showed them a look-alike and raised Jesus up to His presence. Our Lord also reveals that those who made that claim had no knowledge of the truth.

In the early years of Christianity, several views on Jesus' fate emerged. In the subsequent centuries and until the articles of faith were fully formulated at the Council of Nicea (325), these ideological differences continued to persist, and movements that claimed that Jesus had not been crucified were accused of heresy and its members were persecuted.

The Qur'anic Account of Jesus' Ascent to God's Presence

Examining the words used in the narratives relating how the Prophets died and the verses dealing with Jesus' ascent to God's presence reveals an important fact: Jesus did not die like the other prophets did, nor was he murdered by the unbelievers. Rather, our Lord took him up to His presence. In this chapter, we will examine the Arabic words used to express how the Prophets died and how Jesus was raised up to God's presence, and investigate how the Qur'an uses them.

As we will see in greater detail later on, the Qur'an uses qataloohu (to kill), maata (to die), halaka (to perish), salaboohu (they crucified him), or some other special expressions to describe the death or murder of the Prophets. In the case of Jesus, the Qur'an clearly states that he was not killed in any of those ways, for: "They did not kill him [wa ma qataloohu] and did not crucify him [wa ma salaboohu]." God reveals that people were shown a look-alike and that Jesus was raised up to His presence, as follows:

When God said: "Jesus, I will take you back [mutawaffeeka] and raise you up [wa raafi'uka] to Me and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Rising..." (Surah Al 'Imran, 3: 55)

The following are the ways in which the words referring to death in the Qur'an and the word tawaffa in Surah Al 'Imran are used:

(1)
Tawaffa: To Cause To Die, To Take in One's Sleep,
or To Take Back

The word tawaffa used in Surah Al 'Imran 3 and translated as "taking back" here and "causing to die" in some Qur'an translations, has various connotations. Examining the Arabic verses clearly reveals that these connotations of the word should be considered while applying it to Jesus' situation. The Qur'an describes his being taken back to God in the words that Jesus will say on the Day of Judgment:

[Jesus said], "I said to them nothing but what You ordered me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness against them as long as I remained among them, but when You took me back to You [tawaffa], You were the One watching over them. You are the Witness of all things." (Surat al-Ma'ida, 5:117)

In Arabic the word that is translated in some translations of this verse as "You have caused me to die" is tawaffa and comes from the root wafa - to fulfil. Tawaffa does not actually mean "death" but the act of "taking the self back" either in sleep, in death or as in the case of Jesus being taken back into the presence of God. From the Qur'an again, we understand that "taking the self back" does not necessarily mean death. For instance, it can mean "taking back the self while one is asleep," as indicated in the following verse:

It is He Who takes you back to Himself [yatawaffaakum] at night, while knowing the things you perpetrate by day, and then wakes you up again, so that a specified term may be fulfilled. (Surat al-An'am, 6:60)

The word used for "take back" in this verse is the same as the one used in Surah Al 'Imran 55. In other words, in the verse above, the word tawaffa is used and it is obvious that one does not die in one's sleep. Therefore, what is meant here is, again, "taking the self back." In the following verse, the same word is used like this:

God takes back people's selves [yatawaffaa] when their death [mawtihaa] arrives and those who have not yet died, while they are asleep [lam tamut]. He keeps hold of those whose death [mawt] has been decreed and sends the others back for a specified term. (Surat Az-Zumar, 39:42)

As this verse clarifies, God takes back the self of the one who is asleep, yet He sends back the selves of those whose deaths have yet not been decreed. In this context, in one's sleep one does not die, in the sense in which we perceive death. Only for a temporary period, the self leaves the body and remains in another dimension. When we wake up, the self returns to the body.1

Imam al-Qurtubi makes clear that there are three meanings to the term wafat which is from the same root as tawaffa:the wafat of death, the wafat of sleep, and last, the wafat of being raised up to God, as in the case of Jesus.

(2)
Qatala: To Kill

The Qur'an uses qatala to mean "to kill," as in the following verse:

Pharaoh said: "Let me kill [aqtulu] Moses and let him call upon his Lord! I am afraid that he may change your religion and bring about corruption in the land." (Surah Ghafir, 40:26)

In Arabic, "let me kill Moses" is aqtulu Musa, a phrase that is derived from the verb qatala. In another verse, the same word is used in the following way:

... [That was because they] killed [yaqtuloona] the Prophets without any right to do so. (Surat al-Baqara, 2:61)

The expression yaqtuloona (they killed) is also derived from qatala. The translation is clearly "to kill."

The verses below speak of the deaths of the Prophets, and the usage of the verb qatala is marked. All words in brackets are derivatives of this verb.

We will write down what they said and their killing [wa qatlahum] of the Prophets without any right to do so. (Surah Al 'Imran, 3:181)

Say: "Why, then, if you are believers, did you previously kill [taqtuloona] the Prophets of God?" (Surat al-Baqara, 2:91)

As for those who reject God's Signs, and kill [yaqtuloona] the Prophets without any right to do so, and kill [yaqtuloona] those who command justice... (Surah Al 'Imran, 3:21)

"Kill [uqtuloo] Joseph or expel him to some land." (Surah Yusuf, 12:9)

..."Moses, the Council is conspiring to kill you [li yaqtulooka]." (Surat al-Qasas, 28:20)

The only answer of his [Abraham's] people was to say: "Kill [uqtuloohu] him or burn him!" (Surat al-'Ankabut, 29:24)

(3)
Halaka: To Perish

Another word used to denote the act of killing is halaka. It also is used to mean "to perish, to be destroyed, or to die," as in the verse given below:

... when he [Joseph] died [halaka], you said: "God will never send another Messenger after him."(Surah Ghafir, 40:34)

The phrase idha halaka is translated as "when he died." meaning "to die."

(4)
Mawt: Death

Another word used to relate a Prophet's death is mawt, a noun derived from the verb maata (to die), as follows:

Then when We decreed that he [Prophet Solomon] should die [mawt], nothing divulged his death [mawtihi] to them except the worm that ate his staff. (Surah Saba', 34:14)

In the following verse, another form of the verb is used:

Peace be upon him [Prophet John] the day he was born, the day he dies [yamootu], and the day he is raised up again alive. (Surah Maryam, 19:15)

The word yamootu is translated here as "they day he dies," and the same word is used (in the form of a noun) to relate Jacob's death:

Or were you present when death [mawt] came to Jacob? (Surat al-Baqara, 2:133)

In another verse, the verbs qatala (in the passive form qutila) and maata are used together:

Mohammed is only a Messenger, and he has been preceded by other Messengers. If he were to die [maata] or be killed [qutila], would you turn on your heels? (Surah Al 'Imran, 3:144)

Other forms of the verb are used in other verses to denote the death of Prophets:

She exclaimed: "Oh if only I had died [mittu] before this time and was something discarded and forgotten!" (Surah Maryam, 19:23)

We did not give any human being before you immortality [khuld]. And if you die [mitta], will they then be immortal? (Surat al-Anbiya', 21: 34)

"He Who will cause my death [yumeetunee], then give me life." (Surat ash-Shu'ara', 26: 81)

(5)
Khalid: Immortal

The word khalid means immortality, permanence, and continued existence, as in the following verse:

We did not give them bodies that did not eat food, nor were they immortal [khalideena]. (Surat al-Anbiya', 21:8)

(6)
Salaba: To Crucify

Another word used in the Qur'an to relate death is salaba (to crucify). This verb has various meanings (e.g., to hang, to crucify, to execute) and is used in the following ways:

They did not kill him and they did not crucify him [wa maa salaboohu]. (Surat An-Nisa', 4:157)

[Joseph said:] "One of you will serve his lord with wine, the other of you will be crucified [yuslabu]." (Surah Yusuf, 12:41)

They should be killed or crucified [yusallaboo]. (Surat al-Ma'ida, 5:33)

[Pharaoh said:] "I will cut off your alternate hands and feet, and then I will crucify [la usallibannakum] every one of you." (Surat al-A'raf, 7:124)

As the verses show, the words used to express Jesus' situation are altogether different to those used to describe the deaths of the other Prophets. God states that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, that a look-alike was killed in his place, and that he was taken back (in other words that his soul was taken) and raised up to His presence. When talking of Jesus', the Qur'an uses tawaffa (to take the soul) whereas when talking of the other Prophets, it uses qataloohu or maata (and its derivatives) to mean "death" in the conventional sense. This information shows us yet again that Jesus' situation was extraordinary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Yuce Kuran'in Cagdas Tefsiri (The Contemporary Tafsir of the Holy Qur'an) by Professor Suleyman Ates, Head of Department of Basic Islamic Sciences at Istanbul University's Faculty of Divinity, Vol. 2, 49-50.

[MazloomYarMasud]

How can you determine the death of a individual based on his medical condition.

[inqilab]

Do you ponder before you type or are you just trigger happy and love to copy and paste?

LOL you have been caught lying once again buddy.

Your heart is blind. I do not expect you to say something productive.

Cry to the admins.

[inqilab]

We have dissected these dirty ahmadis.

May Allah curse them and destroy them. ameen

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

LOL you have been caught lying once again buddy.

Your heart is blind. I do not expect you to say something productive.

Cry to the admins.

Caught lying?

Actually, you are not reading what you are posting.

[Master Khan]

Mirza Gulam Ahmad pa gholo key maarsho...is that true or false?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sorry, dear brother, I don't understand Pashtu.

[Badlun]

Do you ponder before you type or are you just trigger happy and love to copy and paste?

Momin its not the issue whether he does copy paste , but the issue is what he paste is correct or not. The issue is not beween Inqilab and Momin but its an intellectual discussion for learning and sharing for the members and viewers of this site.

I ll request you very humbly that you may take start from the first copy paste post of Inqilab or any other member and start writing good articles to refute or accept the contents of these articles.

It does not matter whether Inqilab has written them or some one else but these are written against Ahmadis and you being Ahmadi or supporter of Ahmadis may write about these posts one by one in a systematic way and if these were convincing then all of us may become Ahmadis or you may abondon your Ahmadism or Qadyaniyat or you may become a reformer within Ahmadism or within the mainstream non Ahmadi Islam.