Anti-Ahmadiyyah Thread

[inqilab]

Read the rules, No insults.

-The Staff

[Saif ul Haq]

I had seen your comment before it was deleted by the staff Inqilab, thank you for the post and the thread. I understand what type of person I'm dealing with and it's only Allah who can guide people to the correct way - Islaam

[Saif ul Haq]

That is not a fair conclusion. I have understood everything. I don't agree with what you have posted.

Alright, now you do not agree based upon what?

[Saif ul Haq]

Saif wrora Jana,

please answer this as it is part of the discussion.

I have already answered that, please refer back

[Saif ul Haq]

مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

The different possible translations for this verse, including a literal translation.

LINK Search for 5:117 and then click the link provided on 5:117



Literal

Yusuf Ali

Pickthal

Arberry

Shakir

Sarwar

H/K/Saheeh

Malik

Maulana Ali


Free Minds

Qaribullah

George Sale

Asad

Khalifa

Hilali/Khan

QXP Shabbir Ahemd

Sher Ali

"Tawaffa" literally means "take" depending on the context, as in this verse, it means to take up or ascend and not death

What is odd about some of these translators, they would interpret "Tawaffa" one way in a verse and then the total opposite in another

This shows their lack of consistency with the meaning of the word and not a academic understanding of sarf and nahw, plus some of these translators are not even Muslim

[Saif ul Haq]

The question is: why are there two different stances on this issue?

1. One that Hadhrat Isa (as) is taken up
2. The other that he is literally dead?

Or is there really one stance, that some are literally translating the verse and the others are translating the verse as per the usage of the word in the Arabic language.


If paid close attention, both of these translation give the meaning of death.

That is why I want to discuss with you, Saif ul Haq, or anyone else, what could this verse possible mean, what is the message that is being conveyed here by Allah?

There are no different stances on this issue, no Muslim believes Jesus died, we all believe that he was taken up

And you still have to present references to your stance. I prefer Arabic grammarians explaining why "tawaffa" means death in that particular verse, although there is no evidence on its own explaining Jesus died

[Saif ul Haq]

I discussed what "tawaffa" meant according to 'al-Mawrid' here http://www.pashtunforums.com/93711-post102.html

[Saif ul Haq]

I discussed how "Tawaffa" can be used http://www.pashtunforums.com/93805-post105.html

[Saif ul Haq]

I forgot to mention, one can't interpret the Qur'aan without the Prophetic sayings, and to say Jesus died is opposing many authentic reports

[malalay]

How did I respect our beloved Prophet (saw)?

I am glad you are giving me the green light to post all the different translation that you purposely left off. I was hoping that you would have done it yourself. It would have given you more credibility. You come across as someone who is deceiving, unfortunately.

If thats so, then YOU are the one deceiving, as you so conveniently left off the otherwise translations (from ur delusionary stance) in your very first post about this verse..Atleast i ignored the contradictory translations keeping in view the Ahadiths of the Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h) which should be believed side by side with the Quran. Why not take such a meaning which satisfies both the Quran and Hadees?! Quran is not an ordinary book, theres no other like It, its complicated thats why we can have many different meanings of each and every verse, and as Saif ul haq explained to you that the literal meaning is also not what you have assumed yourself (which u dont want to accept, offcourse).. I am sorry to say but u are making this debate confusing by putting question after question instead of representing your point..we are not here to fill any questionairre but to discuss the matter by presenting our beliefs.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I have already answered that, please refer back

You conveniently ignored the post.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

"Tawaffa" literally means "take" depending on the context, as in this verse, it means to take up or ascend and not death

What is odd about some of these translators, they would interpret "Tawaffa" one way in a verse and then the total opposite in another

This shows their lack of consistency with the meaning of the word and not a academic understanding of sarf and nahw, plus some of these translators are not even Muslim

Actually, if you think that those translators are not consistent then bring forth the use of the same word in the Quran.

Further, when Allah is fa'il and a human being is maf'ul bihi, then the word only means death. This is in Arabic dictionaries. Unfortunately, you were so dishonest when you were quoting Al Mawrid.

In this case, Allah is the fa'il and Hadhat Isa (as) is the maf'ul bihi, hence Allah gave him death. Hence, Hadhrat Isa (as) is passed away.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

There are no different stances on this issue, no Muslim believes Jesus died, we all believe that he was taken up

And you still have to present references to your stance. I prefer Arabic grammarians explaining why "tawaffa" means death in that particular verse, although there is no evidence on its own explaining Jesus died

Page 391, Al Mawrid. Lets see what you have to say now.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I discussed what "tawaffa" meant according to 'al-Mawrid' here http://www.pashtunforums.com/93711-post102.html

You conveniently left off what I was referring to. You did not present all of the meanings of tawaffa. I would confidently call the intellectual dishonesty.

It's okay, if you won't agree, I will post it for your "convenience."

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I forgot to mention, one can't interpret the Qur'aan without the Prophetic sayings, and to say Jesus died is opposing many authentic reports

Even if we were to do that, Hadhrat Isa (as) would still be declared dead. The same verse will be used by our beloved Prophet (saw) on the Day of Judgment with respect to some Muslims. Check Bukhari, tafseer 5:117.

Does this then also mean that Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is alive in the sky?