Why are Ahmadis considered non-Muslims in Pakistan

[erlangner]

Ahmadis are declared Kaafir not for any religious purpose, but for the political reasons. Saudi government pressurized Zulfiqar Ali bhutto to decalre them Kaafir.
When I was going to attend the gatehring of Ahmadis in peshawar in 1999, I was much worried that if they will say anything against the Holly prophet then how I will tolerate. However entering their center, there was a big banner on the main gate, with these words in urdu:
Jab koee Shakhs Muhammad SAW par ek bar darood parhta hae, Allah us par 10 bar rehmat bejhta hae.
Then also I listen their speaches very carefully. I was there for about 2 hours. It was really amazing to listen them. I found in that gathering nothing against Islam.
However, as per our bakcground, I did not pray with them and they allowed me to sit in the library while they were pffering prayer with jamaat.
They did not mind at all.
They were polite people knowing how to talk to and react to. Not like our Mullahs killing and declaring kaafir every one.
However, in my mind and opinion, to decalre them Kaafir is somehow a biased decision.

[erlangner]

As I myself dont think if Jesus will come back. But dont consider me Kaafir. As the main issue for faith to be muslims different than believing in jesus to come back.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

What's your point, Maseed? ... So what that someone considered the Ahmadiyyas Muslims? Guess what - a LOT of Muslims accept them as Muslims :O

And what's with you and your hatred for Islamilis, too? I mean, why do you always bring "pork-eating Ismailis" into every single conversation you can? Get over yourself. That's none of your business. You should hang around with some Ismailis; you might learn something.

The thread was not aimed at people such as you, who cant even be WOMAN enough to say your Ismaili/Qadiayani yourself.

You have spent too much time in America. You will even accept a Homosexual Muslim as being a good Muslim I bet.

Next time you mind your business and dont comment on my threads ok missy, I understand you got alot of people decevied with your flutter and personality but deep inside your a bigger demon that works for others interests.

Just like the case with Pukhtunkhwa Peace forum, where your Male Friends came in your defence(Attention Seeking) and started attacking me. I stand by my comment, I will be waiting for that Particular Person to enter the lions den.

Kind Regards

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Ya but why jinnah is the part of discussion. I dont like to discuss someone private life, what Jinnah was and not, and we can discuss his role against and in favour of Pashtuns in this forum.
We can see, his political attitude harm or favoured the Pashtuns cause. But his personeel life is of no interets for us. If he Is ismaili, ahmadi, sunni, or what Bala he is or was. He memorized Prayer or not, should not be our interest.

Typical response of a ANP bacha Khan baba follower

If you didnt get my point you would know that Pakistan is suppose to be an Islamic State based on Islamic Law, so if the founder is an Ismaili Kaffir who ate pork and drank whisky and dated Parsi women just like your Ghani Khan, then the thread counters it.

People such as Qurratgai will accept anybody as a Muslim, I can even see her fighting for the rights of Homosexual Muslims in the near future, Annoying and attention seeeking drama queen sat in the West who wont even dare come to Pakhtunkhwa because she knows what the public will do to her. Iam sick of these people sat in the West, same with Wahabists, Let Pashtun decide their own fate, to hell with these outsiders.

He divided Pashtuns in the name of his faith and he hismelf never practiced the faith to whom he based his country on. That is my Arguement.

Kind Regards

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Anybody who declares themselves as a Prophet of Islam even tho Mohammand was the last is considered logically as being NON MUSLIM.

I dont know why people defend Qadiyanis especially those Closket Ismailis such as Quratgai sat in the west.

They are not Muslims at all. Its not a matter of beleif, both qadiyanis and ismailis fabricate faith to suit their needs.

Kind Regards

P.S. Why was my thread on Jinnah removed? I guess speaking against Jinnah is against Pashtun rules. Ismailis and Qadiyanis are NOT MUSLIM! so they have no right preaching in the name of Islam since they dont even follow basic tenats of Islam.

[erlangner]

ya Maseed sahib, I am an open follower of Bacha Khan Baba. I discuss politics here, not someone private life. Ghani Khan wife was no way Parsi my dear, but if she was then also does not matter for me.It will not reduce Ghani Khan respect in my eyes. Bacha Khan baba, or wali khan baba are no way my religious leaders. They are my politicial leaders and I inspire from them politically and for religous matters I have some others.
Ya Pakistan and Islam are no way same and parallel. It is crytsal clear that jinnah used this word islam for political purposes and he succeeded well in his stance, and finally turned to his original secualr ideology after having Pakistan in hands.

[Nadir Shah]

Typical response of a ANP bacha Khan baba follower

If you didnt get my point you would know that Pakistan is suppose to be an Islamic State based on Islamic Law, so if the founder is an Ismaili Kaffir who ate pork and drank whisky and dated Parsi women just like your Ghani Khan, then the thread counters it.

People such as Qurratgai will accept anybody as a Muslim, I can even see her fighting for the rights of Homosexual Muslims in the near future, Annoying and attention seeeking drama queen sat in the West who wont even dare come to Pakhtunkhwa because she knows what the public will do to her. Iam sick of these people sat in the West, same with Wahabists, Let Pashtun decide their own fate, to hell with these outsiders.

He divided Pashtuns in the name of his faith and he hismelf never practiced the faith to whom he based his country on. That is my Arguement.

Kind Regards

Malgariya, what is your issue with Ghani Khan again? Is it that he exposed your semen-ladden brains and refuted your puritanism?
And secondly, malgariya, what is wrong with being a homosexual?

[Roshina]

Next time you mind your business and dont comment on my threads ok missy, I understand you got alot of people decevied with your flutter and personality but deep inside your a bigger demon that works for others interests.

Every single person on the forum can post her/his views in ANY thread she/he likes. If you don't wanna hear my opinion, don't talk. That's the best way to not get me to talk.

Now, back to the topic . . . you comment didn't address my questions, just letting you know in case you thought it did.

[muhsina]

Maseed Khana wrora

We can discuss who is muslim and who is not. But let me divert your kind attention to the fact that :

All watan dost consider this matter to be of tertiary importance. I do not encourage that brothers and sisters who are fighting for Pakhtuns rights and freedom should waste their time in these abstract issues.

To quench your thirst, however, let us take the definition of the most followed jurist among muslims , that is; Imam Abu Haneefa:

The genious jurist which he was ,he said:

A person becomes non muslim by negating the same idea ,the pronouncement of which makes him muslim.

Now as the pronouncement of Shahada aka

" There is no Ideal but the correct Ideal [called Al-ilah or Allah for short in Arabic] and Muhammad was the person who identified the correct Ideal [called Rasool in Arabic].

makes a person legally muslim hence the negation of the same will make anyone as non muslim.

Now apply this litmus test on any sect or group and you will get the result.

This is a simplified version for the people with simplified world view , life and universe but technically [legally/juristically] it is what it is.

The Ahmadiya consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as " Maseeh Mawood" [the promised messaih,and its Maseeh not Maseed, pls be careful] not prophet as far as I know. The other group among the Ahmadis consider G.A.Qadiyani as " the Mahdi" [the right guided leader] and not as a prophet.

For us as Pakhtuns, I dont think we should be bothered about either Maseeh Mawoood or Mahdi. I think we should be more concerned about Maseed and Wazir as they are the victims of Pakistan army.

In case any one of them comes and he is so convincing then we will see what to do with him. Dont worry about any one of them right now and focus on liberating your poor nation instead of either affirming or negating those who either have not come or are dead or are not supposed to come at all.

[inqilab]

Maseed Khana wrora

We can discuss who is muslim and who is not. But let me divert your kind attention to the fact that :

All watan dost consider this matter to be of tertiary importance. I do not encourage that brothers and sisters who are fighting for Pakhtuns rights and freedom should waste their time in these abstract issues.

To quench your thirst, however, let us take the definition of the most followed jurist among muslims , that is; Imam Abu Haneefa:

The genious jurist which he was ,he said:

A person becomes non muslim by negating the same idea ,the pronouncement of which makes him muslim.

Now as the pronouncement of Shahada aka

" There is no Ideal but the correct Ideal [called Al-ilah or Allah for short in Arabic] and Muhammad was the person who identified the correct Ideal [called Rasool in Arabic].

makes a person legally muslim hence the negation of the same will make anyone as non muslim.

Now apply this litmus test on any sect or group and you will get the result.

This is a simplified version for the people with simplified world view , life and universe but technically [legally/juristically] it is what it is.

The Ahmadiya consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as " Maseeh Mawood" [the promised messaih,and its Maseeh not Maseed, pls be careful] not prophet as far as I know. The other group among the Ahmadis consider G.A.Qadiyani as " the Mahdi" [the right guided leader] and not as a prophet.

For us as Pakhtuns, I dont think we should be bothered about either Maseeh Mawoood or Mahdi. I think we should be more concerned about Maseed and Wazir as they are the victims of Pakistan army.

In case any one of them comes and he is so convincing then we will see what to do with him. Dont worry about any one of them right now and focus on liberating your poor nation instead of either affirming or negating those who either have not come or are dead or are not supposed to come at all.

What are you talking about? Why did you bring up abu hanifa and fabricate a quote to him? Do you know who abu hanifa was? Do you know he believed that a person who neglects even praying one prayer is a kafir?

Qadiani believe mirza was a prophet and the lahori qadianis believe he was a messia, jesus returned. their shahada is even different.

If you do not know. Just zip it.

[inqilab]

lol qrratugai is an ismaili?? lol

[Roshina]

lol qrratugai is an ismaili?? lol

Some of us here are extremely narrow-minded and ignorant, and so we think that the ONLY reason a person would support a group of people is if that person belongs to the belief system of that people. Such folly makes me shake my head in pity for the people who think this way, you see. They think that the only reason someone would support Ismailis is because that person is an Ismaili him/herself.

If I were an Ismaili and if I believed in allowing people like you and others to smother me in one little box, I would not at ALL shy from letting the world know about it. My nature, fortunately and however, is to know myself well enough to be proud of who and what I am -- religiously, socially, politically, nationally, and in every other way -- and never change my beliefs for others just because they think I'm wrong (or just because they're too narrow-minded to try to understand what I or others might believe), unless I'm proven wrong. So whatever I am, I'm very proud of it, just as you must be proud of your own beliefs. Nonetheless, the more oppressed a people are, the more I wanna stand with them; the more I study them so I know who they are and why they believe what they believe so that I can stand up with and for them when they're attacked by an ignorant lot of folks who think they're right and others are wrong.

And, so, I'm everything.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Some of us here are extremely narrow-minded and ignorant, and so we think that the ONLY reason a person would support a group of people is if that person belongs to the belief system of that people. Such folly makes me shake my head in pity for the people who think this way, you see. They think that the only reason someone would support Ismailis is because that person is an Ismaili him/herself.

If I were an Ismaili and if I believed in allowing people like you and others to smother me in one little box, I would not at ALL shy from letting the world know about it. My nature, fortunately and however, is to know myself well enough to be proud of who and what I am -- religiously, socially, politically, nationally, and in every other way -- and never change my beliefs for others just because they think I'm wrong (or just because they're too narrow-minded to try to understand what I or others might believe), unless I'm proven wrong. So whatever I am, I'm very proud of it, just as you must be proud of your own beliefs. Nonetheless, the more oppressed a people are, the more I wanna stand with them; the more I study them so I know who they are and why they believe what they believe so that I can stand up with and for them when they're attacked by an ignorant lot of folks who think they're right and others are wrong.

And, so, I'm everything.

You do know that it is common knowledge that Ismailis and other types of Shi'ites frequently lie about their believes, right? Taqiyyah is what it is called.

[Roshina]

You do know that it is common knowledge that Ismailis and other types of Shi'ites frequently lie about their believes, right? Taqiyyah is what it is called.

Actually, it's not just among Shiites. Even Sunni hadiths support the idea of lying about your beliefs to save your life. That's one of the moments when lying is considered acceptable. All types of Muslims practiced taqiyyah when they were forbidden from expressing their beliefs in Spain when Spain was taken back by the non-Muslims. And all Muslim scholars agree that if you need to lie about your beliefs to save your life, there's nothing wrong with it and it's perfectly Islamic.

Shiites are more prone to doing because when they're in a Sunni-majority country or community, they know they're in danger -- just as Sunnis are when they may be in a Shiite-majority community.

And it's totally understandable: When they're around ignorant, narrow-minded, illiterate, and violent-minded people like many that we see here, why would an Ismaili be open about her/his beliefs?

As for me, I don't represent anyone. I speak only for myself when I say that I'm not afraid of cowards who will harm another individual simply because their beliefs are different. I would therefore have no problem coming here and saying that I'm a Sunni or an Ismaili or a Wahhabi or whatever else I would be if, again, I believed in letting people like some here smothering me in a little box.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Actually, it's not just among Shiites. Even Sunni hadiths support the idea of lying about your beliefs to save your life. That's one of the moments when lying is considered acceptable. All types of Muslims practiced taqiyyah when they were forbidden from expressing their beliefs in Spain when Spain was taken back by the non-Muslims. And all Muslim scholars agree that if you need to lie about your beliefs to save your life, there's nothing wrong with it and it's perfectly Islamic.

Shiites are more prone to doing because when they're in a Sunni-majority country or community, they know they're in danger -- just as Sunnis are when they may be in a Shiite-majority community.

And it's totally understandable: When they're around ignorant, narrow-minded, illiterate, and violent-minded people like many that we see here, why would an Ismaili be open about her/his beliefs?

As for me, I don't represent anyone. I speak only for myself when I say that I'm not afraid of cowards who will harm another individual simply because their beliefs are different. I would therefore have no problem coming here and saying that I'm a Sunni or an Ismaili or a Wahhabi or whatever else I would be if, again, I believed in letting people like some here smothering me in a little box.

Not true.

Shi'ites, be it Ismaili or Imami practice taqiyyah at all times. Not just when their life is in danger.