Slavery intrinsic to Arab Culture?

[khushal]

There's no need for allies; You have such a juvenile understanding of logic it's embarrassing. Just because you disagree with someone about other topics; doesn't mean you disagree with someone about everything on that basis; it's about truth not allies. The reason you believe that's the case is that's the mode by which you think and thus project it upon others.

all for the stupidity and ignorance of False Ethnic pride.

your the one with the juvenile understanding of logic. you getting a quote from some john talib about russians supporting the taliban confirms as truth.
you saying that the taliban's claim to control Quandahar makes every armed person a talib as fact.
Even though Karzai father has personally met Omar Hotak and no intellegence agency in the world claims he does not exist has you claiming that he does not exist.
now your claiming some commentary in a book makes it a fact that pashtun were slave owners.
Dude your full of BS.

I dont have false ethnic pride, I have pointed out many flaws in pashtuns. But your pointing out things that are ludicrous and flawed.

[khushal]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/annotation

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/annotate
an·no·tate(n-tt)
v. an·no·tat·ed, an·no·tat·ing, an·no·tates
v.tr. To furnish (a literary work) with critical commentary or explanatory notes; gloss.

Its a commentary that does not make sense

[Toramana]

Khushal, why is it unthinkable for you to accept that Pashtuns most likely if not with 100% certainty practiced slavery? Pashtuns have been the choice soldiery of all the invaders from the north whether Turks, Iranians, and Afghans? Were these soldiers angels, immune to worldly temptations ?

It is said that Mahmoud of Ghazna captured so many slaves during his campaigns of India that the slaves he supplied to Bukhara glutted the slave marketthere ---and many were killed on the way while crossing Hindukush ---so the name Hindukush (Hindu-killer). It is worth mentioning that Pashtuns (Khalj/Ghalji and Afghans) formed the bulk of his army.

The fact is, a Pashtun can be as greedy and rapacious as any other human being if not more due to his weak economic circumstances. And he treats women like trash (fortunately, this situation is changing fast specially in KP where urbanization is on the rise).

[RevolutionThroughReason]

all this does is prove that your a perverted individual, you still have not proved that pashtuns were slave owners like arabs and europeans.

you still haven't proved that I haven't

[RevolutionThroughReason]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/annotate
an·no·tate(n-tt)
v. an·no·tat·ed, an·no·tat·ing, an·no·tates
v.tr. To furnish (a literary work) with critical commentary or explanatory notes; gloss.

Its a commentary that does not make sense

free dictionary? case closed.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

your the one with the juvenile understanding of logic. you getting a quote from some john talib about russians supporting the taliban confirms as truth.
you saying that the taliban's claim to control Quandahar makes every armed person a talib as fact.
Even though Karzai father has personally met Omar Hotak and no intellegence agency in the world claims he does not exist has you claiming that he does not exist.
now your claiming some commentary in a book makes it a fact that pashtun were slave owners.
Dude your full of BS.

I dont have false ethnic pride, I have pointed out many flaws in pashtuns. But your pointing out things that are ludicrous and flawed.

yeah I'm the one who's Juvenille I'm getting evidence from the Talibs themselve that the Talibs are getting russian support because we all know when Talibs confess something it can' be true because the Talibs have no knowledge about what goes on with the Talibs, because the Talibs aren't involved with the Talibs.

And clearly some annotation in a book written by the author of the book who just happened to be the King of the Country tht he ruled over isn't proof either

Noting is proof; Pashtun are holy men who have never raped, enslaved or done anything that everyone around them has done; The Pashtuns are a miracle people who have amazigly stayed pure. I bet there's not Pashtun Atheist either. every Pashtun woman wears Burqa, every Pashtun woman was a virgin when they were married. And Pashtun women are never mistreated.


Is this the narrative you're riding under?


Your entire contention has no verfiable basis that invalidates the evidence presented; Your claim that Pashtun society is identical to what it was 120 years ago was falsified.

Every attempt you have tried to discredit the evidence has either been Logical Fallacies or been refuted.


t's simply a matter of denial for you.

[khushal]

Khushal, why is it unthinkable for you to accept that Pashtuns most likely if not with 100% certainty practiced slavery? Pashtuns have been the choice soldiery of all the invaders from the north whether Turks, Iranians, and Afghans? Were these soldiers angels, immune to worldly temptations ?

It is said that Mahmoud of Ghazna captured so many slaves during his campaigns of India that the slaves he supplied to Bukhara glutted the slave marketthere ---and many were killed on the way while crossing Hindukush ---so the name Hindukush (Hindu-killer). It is worth mentioning that Pashtuns (Khalj/Ghalji and Afghans) formed the bulk of his army.

The fact is, a Pashtun can be as greedy and rapacious as any other human being if not more due to his weak economic circumstances. And he treats women like trash (fortunately, this situation is changing fast specially in KP where urbanization is on the rise).

The fact that slavery is rare among hunter/gatherer populations, as slavery is a system of social stratification(class system). Mass slavery also requires economic surpluses and a high population density to be viable. Slavery is not viable in pashtun society economicaly or socially. No one is denying that a pashtun can be greedy, after all he is human but that is not the lone variable you need for slavery to have existed.

There are many theories about the origins of the name hindu kush which means hindu killer but some scholars also contend that it could be a corruption of the word kesh or kash which means boundary and I am well aware of the indian slaves that were transported through Pashtunland on their way to central asia but that does not mean nor is their any evidence of pashtuns keeping slaves. If they did keep slaves, pashtunwali as it is today would have evolved into something else. Malmastia(hospitality), sayma(giving refuge), namos(protection of women), tura , nang, ghyrat. these things would not be part of our culture. WE are a lawless people and pashtunwali is our code, nowhere in it mentions slaves or even a class system and actually promotes equality.

The thing SXE is talking about is forced labor but that is much different from how the arabs and europeans sanctioned the slave trade.

Also the west today and the arabs today treats women like trash.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

The fact that slavery is rare among hunter/gatherer populations, as slavery is a system of social stratification(class system). Mass slavery also requires economic surpluses and a high population density to be viable. Slavery is not viable in pashtun society economicaly or socially. No one is denying that a pashtun can be greedy, after all he is human but that is not the lone variable you need for slavery to have existed.

There are many theories about the origins of the name hindu kush which means hindu killer but some scholars also contend that it could be a corruption of the word kesh or kash which means boundary and I am well aware of the indian slaves that were transported through Pashtunland on their way to central asia but that does not mean nor is their any evidence of pashtuns keeping slaves. If they did keep slaves, pashtunwali as it is today would have evolved into something else. Malmastia(hospitality), sayma(giving refuge), namos(protection of women), tura , nang, ghyrat. these things would not be part of our culture. WE are a lawless people and pashtunwali is our code, nowhere in it mentions slaves.

The thing SXE is talking about is forced labor but that is much different from how the arabs and europeans sanctioned the slave trade.

Pastoral Nomads =/= Hunter Gatherers and your argument is easily debunked by the fact that Hunter Gatherers had no concept of Nationality or Territorial Identity either; while Pashtuns do which implicates settlement so Pashtuns do not fit the Hunter-Gatherer mold. Pashtuns are Pastoral Nomads, not hunters and gatherers; they practice agriculture and animal hubsbandry which the prior scarcely did. Arabs too were Nomadic people; but they also had slaves; which debunks your claim even from the argument of Nomadic societies.


you're arguing by Idealized narrative not Facuality. A Hypothesis ; which remains unverified; not evidence.

[khushal]

Pastoral Nomads =/= Hunter Gatherers and your argument is easily debunked by the fact that Hunter Gatherers had no concept of Nationality or Territorial Identity either; while Pashtuns do which implicates settlement so Pashtuns do not fit the Hunter-Gatherer mold. Arabs too were Nomadic people; but they also had slaves; which debunks your claim even from the argument of Nomadic societies.


you're arguing by Idealized narrative not Facuality. A Hypothesis ; which remains unverified; not evidence.

That is exactly my argument since pashtuns in reality never belonged to a nation of laws. the only exception is KP pashtuns and that is a very recent developement. Arabs had a created a huge empire of laws and belonged to a very sophisticated society.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

That is exactly my argument since pashtuns in reality never belonged to a nation of laws. the only exception is KP pashtuns and that is a very recent developement.

They do belong to a nation; Afghanistan, yes Afghanistan is young, but they belonged to it.

Pashtuns having kings, cities, and towns, and even villages proves you're wrong.


this all prove settlement and identity.

your argument is wrong and anthropologically false from every angle imaginable.

[R3SISTANC3]

Pashtun are not perfect but to say that Pashtun institutionalized slavery is completely unfounded and incorrect. Pashtun had subordinates or equal castes which they classified as hamsaya but there is little evidence of actually buying or owning slaves. Even in regards to war spoils and concubines one can argue that that was introduced with Islamic expansionists since Pashtun only explored their imperialists ambitions after they had accepted Islam. It is well known that Ahmed Shah Baba enticed the tribes to support his jihaad in Hind by promising war booty to the tribes otherwise the tribes were not interested.

However slavery practiced among Arabs was different than that practiced by the Europeans. Slavery among Arabs was purely economic and Arabs had plenty of Arab slaves. The European slavery was driven overwhelmingly by racist undertones to the point that Christianity was interpreted in a way that Europeans were created in the image of god while none Europeans were created to be in servitude to them which was considered a form of worship. In other words being a slave of a White European was good for you and a good deed in the eyes of their god even as a non-White Christian let alone a heathen infidel.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Pashtun are not perfect but to say that Pashtun institutionalized slavery is completely unfounded and incorrect. Pashtun had subordinates or equal castes which they classified as hamsaya but there is little evidence of actually buying or owning slaves. Even in regards to war spoils and concubines one can argue that that was introduced with Islamic expansionists since Pashtun only explored their imperialists ambitions after they had accepted Islam. It is well known that Ahmed Shah Baba enticed the tribes to support his jihaad in Hind by promising war booty to the tribes otherwise the tribes were not interested.

Please examine the evidence contained within this thread from Pashtun references themselves.


Your premise is neither confirmed and merely affirming itself; which is not evidence of anything Raymond

[RevolutionThroughReason]

If they did keep slaves, pashtunwali as it is today would have evolved into something else. Malmastia(hospitality), sayma(giving refuge), namos(protection of women), tura , nang, ghyrat. these things would not be part of our culture. WE are a lawless people and pashtunwali is our code, nowhere in it mentions slaves.

The thing SXE is talking about is forced labor but that is much different from how the arabs and europeans sanctioned the slave trade.

Arabs too hd those laws of "malmastia" , nanawata, namos, tura, nang and ghairat, in fact the WORDS Namos and Ghairat are ARAB words which implies an Arab influence on those concepts. There is nothing that logically precludes the other.

[khushal]

They do belong to a nation; Afghanistan, yes Afghanistan is young, but they belonged to it.

Pashtuns having kings, cities, and towns, and even villages proves you're wrong.

this all prove settlement and identity.

your argument is wrong and anthropologically false from every angle imaginable.

Then why dont you go and try to enforce the constitution on the tribes. It can not be done because they dont recognize it. everytime I pass the durand line border, I have never used a visa or any document. no one recognizes it.

your a confused individual who know nothing about pashtuns

[RevolutionThroughReason]

That is exactly my argument since pashtuns in reality never belonged to a nation of laws. the only exception is KP pashtuns and that is a very recent developement. Arabs had a created a huge empire of laws and belonged to a very sophisticated society.

Pashtuns had empires too!!!!! Goodness grief; you're just batting zero tonight.