Muhammed pbuh married a 9 year old

[khushal]

now your blabbering

[Damir9000]

now your blabbering

What should I be saying then?

What are you talking about?

[khushal]

your spitting out non sense that has nothing to do with the debate. Its like me telling you that since you are an atheist, you must like having sex with men since gay men claim to be atheist.

It seems that you dont have the intellect to debate rationally.

[HalloIsBack]

This just one of the stuff that never made sense to me.

It essentially boils down to.

A) Muhammad had sex with 9 year old girl.

Since, he was a perfect muslim and a example to follow.
Then we should all marry 6 year old and marry off our daughters to old men.

B) Muhammad had sex with 9 year old girl. But it was because he was man of his time.

So, Muhammad is not an example to follow for modern society.

C) Aisha was not 9 years old but older.

The hadiths are incorrect. Muslims shouldn't follow the hadiths.
Half of the Islamic faith is put into question.



Muslims are between a rock and hard place.

b
its still common in yemen to marry an 9 years old girl

[Damir9000]

your spitting out non sense that has nothing to do with the debate. Its like me telling you that since you are an atheist, you must like having sex with men since gay men claim to be atheist.

It seems that you dont have the intellect to debate rationally.

I am sorry. Did I offend you?

Gay men aren't pushed as perfect examples to humanity like Muhammad is.
Islam says that Muslims should emulate Muhammad.
The marriage to a 6 year old puts a lot of it into question.

[khushal]

read the whole thread. you make no sense.

[Bengal_Tiger]

This just one of the stuff that never made sense to me.

It essentially boils down to.

A) Muhammad had sex with 9 year old girl.

Since, he was a perfect muslim and a example to follow.
Then we should all marry 6 year old and marry off our daughters to old men.

B) Muhammad had sex with 9 year old girl. But it was because he was man of his time.

So, Muhammad is not an example to follow for modern society.

C) Aisha was not 9 years old but older.

The hadiths are incorrect. Muslims shouldn't follow the hadiths.
Half of the Islamic faith is put into question.



Muslims are between a rock and hard place.

Hello there,

Welcome to the forum. This is not the best place to talk about religion because you have all sorts of weirods here, one the one extreme a Wahabi nutcase from Holland who declares everyone an infidel/apostate if they disagree with what he says, and on the other extreme a PEGIDA fanatic and Muslim-hating Jew based in Germany who uses this forum to push her hatred of Islam and Muslims.

So I generally refrain from talking about religion here. Feel free to PM me though if you really want to hear more of my opinions.


1. The undisputed universally accepted source of Islam is the Quran.

The other "sources" are problematic both in authenticity and in their compatibility with Quranic teachings.



2. The Sunni books of Hadith in their current format came 3 centuries after the death of the holy prophet Muhammad صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم.

Islam existed before Sahih Bukhari or the other books of Hadith.

However for the sake of balance it has to be said that there are other books of hadith which were allegedly much earlier e.g the Muwatta of Imam Malik.

(Ironically the 6 main Sunni books of hadith are mainly by Farsi-speakers from what were until recently ethnic Tajik lands, so it could even be argued that some of the pseudo-religious Pashtun nationalists on this forum are blindly following the books of Tajiks, a paradox given some of the underlying contempt for Tajiks on this forum by some of these people).



3. The creed of Islam is derived from the Quran and includes the 6 pillars of faith. Believing in the prophet صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم married anyone at age X and Y is not a part of Islam and is not a condition to be a believer.

If someone argues that the prophet صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم did not marry Aisha (ra) until a later age then he is still a believer, in fact Muslim jurists in history have rejected other things which are even more fundamental to Islam and not been accused of disbelief.

However the Quranic text alludes to only those who have reached the age of maturity "balaghoo" to be ready for marriage and possess "rushd", sound judgement.

And test the orphans until they attain puberty; then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether, and whoever is poor, let him eat reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner

Quran Surah 4: verse 6.

The highlighted part in Latin transliteration would be "fa - in antastum minhum rushdan" which means:

"If you (plural e.g. can refer to believers or to society) find them "rushd""

"Rushd" can mean sensible, wise, mature in other words they are capable of dealing with marriage.

The marriage is conditional upon them clearly displaying the quality of sound judgement, widsom e.g. they are not childish but are essentially almost adult like in their behaviour.

What is that age?

It is relative.

The Quran is often specific with numbers e.g. 4 wives, 60 poor people to be fed as part of a process of atoning for certain types of violations against a spouse.

"If you cannot find a slave to free, you shall fast two consecutive months before resuming sexual relations. If you cannot fast, then you shall feed sixty poor people"

Quran Surah 58: verse 4.

In this one verse alone we find two specific numbers, two and sixty.

However there is no specific age for marriage except for the words "balaghoo" and "rushd".

In Spain recently they have lifted the age of marriage from 14 to 16.

Link: Spain raises age of marriage from 14 to 16.


Even in other western states this would be considered very low, but Spanish society until recently had decided it was fine. It was a collective moral decision by Spanish society, a relative one which they have now adjusted.



A quote from the article above.

I believe that in the past 14 year olds of certain societies due to the harsh conditions in which they lived were less frivolous and thus more mature and wiser and would perhaps be mentally and emotionally akin to certain 20 year olds now.

However for example in Britain, no way would I believe that 14 year olds are ready for marriage as the British 14 year olds of 2015 are nothing like 14 year olds of Spain for example in the 1950s or other societies further back in the past.



Some British teenagers.



In fact I actually welcome the Spanish decision to lift the age of marriage.

In traditional Islam (which I believe has many problems both source-wise and Quranic compatibility wise) the concept of "urf" (traditional customs) being acceptable in defining certain legal norms was accepted. Society could define certain laws and acceptable practices within the parameters of Islam based on its own particular unique social/cultural conditions and norms.

So in that sense it can be argued that a society can also based on the norms and circumstances of its time and culture come to a consensus on acceptable ages for marriage.

Also in Spain unless I am wrong (I may have to Google later on) even when 14 year olds could marry there was a limit on how many years older his/her spouse could be, so if I am correct a 14 year old could not legally have married a 34 year old.

Forced marriages, underage marriages are all wrong and are things we as Muslims whether we are in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Yemen and other countries should be combatting, a great crime and essentially a form of imprisonment and torture.



I hope you find this useful brother.

To be honest I don't intend to participate any more in this thread (perhaps some very short replies to basic questions but anything more can be done on my wall or PM as this forum though a great forum is infested with lots of trolls both extreme fundamentalists and Arab-wannabes as well as Islamophobic racists) but once again welcome to the forum.

[Khostai]

Hello there,

Welcome to the forum. This is not the best place to talk about religion because you have all sorts of weirods here, one the one extreme a Wahabi nutcase from Holland who declares everyone an infidel/apostate if they disagree with what he says, and on the other extreme a PEGIDA fanatic and Muslim-hating Jew based in Germany who uses this forum to push her hatred of Islam and Muslims.

So I generally refrain from talking about religion here. Feel free to PM me though if you really want to hear more of my opinions.


1. The undisputed universally accepted source of Islam is the Quran.

The other "sources" are problematic both in authenticity and in their compatibility with Quranic teachings.



2. The Sunni books of Hadith in their current format came 3 centuries after the death of the holy prophet Muhammad صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم.

Islam existed before Sahih Bukhari or the other books of Hadith.

However for the sake of balance it has to be said that there are other books of hadith which were allegedly much earlier e.g the Muwatta of Imam Malik.

(Ironically the 6 main Sunni books of hadith are mainly by Farsi-speakers from what were until recently ethnic Tajik lands, so it could even be argued that some of the pseudo-religious Pashtun nationalists on this forum are blindly following the books of Tajiks, a paradox given some of the underlying contempt for Tajiks on this forum by some of these people).



3. The creed of Islam is derived from the Quran and includes the 6 pillars of faith. Believing in the prophet صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم married anyone at age X and Y is not a part of Islam and is not a condition to be a believer.

If someone argues that the prophet صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم did not marry Aisha (ra) until a later age then he is still a believer, in fact Muslim jurists in history have rejected other things which are even more fundamental to Islam and not been accused of disbelief.

However the Quranic text alludes to only those who have reached the age of maturity "balaghoo" to be ready for marriage and possess "rushd", sound judgement.



Quran Surah 4: verse 6.

The highlighted part in Latin transliteration would be "fa - in antastum minhum rushdan" which means:

"If you (plural e.g. can refer to believers or to society) find them "rushd""

"Rushd" can mean sensible, wise, mature in other words they are capable of dealing with marriage.

The marriage is conditional upon them clearly displaying the quality of sound judgement, widsom e.g. they are not childish but are essentially almost adult like in their behaviour.

What is that age?

It is relative.

The Quran is often specific with numbers e.g. 4 wives, 60 poor people to be fed as part of a process of atoning for certain types of violations against a spouse.




Quran Surah 58: verse 4.

In this one verse alone we find two specific numbers, two and sixty.

However there is no specific age for marriage except for the words "balaghoo" and "rushd".

In Spain recently they have lifted the age of marriage from 14 to 16.

Link: Spain raises age of marriage from 14 to 16.


Even in other western states this would be considered very low, but Spanish society until recently had decided it was fine. It was a collective moral decision by Spanish society, a relative one which they have now adjusted.



A quote from the article above.

I believe that in the past 14 year olds of certain societies due to the harsh conditions in which they lived were less frivolous and thus more mature and wiser and would perhaps be mentally and emotionally akin to certain 20 year olds now.

However for example in Britain, no way would I believe that 14 year olds are ready for marriage as the British 14 year olds of 2015 are nothing like 14 year olds of Spain for example in the 1950s or other societies further back in the past.



Some British teenagers.



In fact I actually welcome the Spanish decision to lift the age of marriage.

In traditional Islam (which I believe has many problems both source-wise and Quranic compatibility wise) the concept of "urf" (traditional customs) being acceptable in defining certain legal norms was accepted. Society could define certain laws and acceptable practices within the parameters of Islam based on its own particular unique social/cultural conditions and norms.

So in that sense it can be argued that a society can also based on the norms and circumstances of its time and culture come to a consensus on acceptable ages for marriage.

Also in Spain unless I am wrong (I may have to Google later on) even when 14 year olds could marry there was a limit on how many years older his/her spouse could be, so if I am correct a 14 year old could not legally have married a 34 year old.

Forced marriages, underage marriages are all wrong and are things we as Muslims whether we are in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Yemen and other countries should be combatting, a great crime and essentially a form of imprisonment and torture.



I hope you find this useful brother.

To be honest I don't intend to participate any more in this thread (perhaps some very short replies to basic questions but anything more can be done on my wall or PM as this forum though a great forum is infested with lots of trolls both extreme fundamentalists and Arab-wannabes as well as Islamophobic racists) but once again welcome to the forum.

This still does not answer weather Muhammad married a chiled or not. So how old was Aisha when she was with Muhammad?

[Damir9000]

[MENTION=1058]Bengal_Tiger[/MENTION]

Like I said.
If she wasn't 9 years old. Then that means hadiths are innacurate.
A lot of the Islamic practices are based on the hadiths.
These practices become questionable.

As a consequence, Islam has been corrupted to a degree.

[khushal]

This still does not answer weather Muhammad married a chiled or not. So how old was Aisha when she was with Muhammad?

There are hadiths that say she was 9 and then there are hadiths that say she was 18 so no one knows. One thing is for certain is that she was of age since his critics did not criticize the marriage during his time nor did anyone criticize the marriage afterwards until the 20th century.

[Damir9000]

There are hadiths that say she was 9 and then there are hadiths that say she was 18 so no one knows. One thing is for certain is that she was of age since his critics did not criticize the marriage during his time nor did anyone criticize the marriage afterwards until the 20th century.

The Hadiths are wrong then?

I thought the Hadiths were protected by Allah.

[jankhan]

Why the staunch enemies of Muhammad pbuh did not criticize him for this act at the time and afterwards ? This is a big question.

[Damir9000]

Why the staunch enemies of Muhammad pbuh did not criticize him for this act at the time and afterwards ? This is a big question.

Savages don't criticize other savages.
Arabs of the time used to bury their newborn daughters.
Christianity use to have child marriages as well.
Islamic countries were closed off from the rest of the world.
It has been only a century that Islam & Muslims have came into the modern world.

Nobody is denying that it wasn't a common practice in those days.

But in the modern world, is Muhammad an example for all mankind? No

The world has evolved from then and improved their morality. Muslims have been left behind.

[Bengal_Tiger]

The Hadiths are wrong then?

I thought the Hadiths were protected by Allah.

The Quran is protected by Allah not the hadeeths.

Sunni "Islam" is based on the "saheeh sittah" (authentic six) i.e. 6 main books of hadeeth mainly by what are basically Tajik scholars (ironic given we are on a Pashtun forum).

Even 1,400 years later scholars such as Al-Albanee and others criticized certain hadeeths in Sahih Bukhari as weak, and he even declared wearing gold forbidden for women, whereas the rest of the Sunnis declare it forbidden for men only. Neither have any Quranic basis.

Traditional "Islam" (both Sunni and Shia) has many flaws and when studied more carefully contradicts the Quran.

Also traditional "Islam" has fundamental problems with modernity and producing a fair, dynamic and progressive society especially in the information technology we live in.

There are millions and millions of other people like you in the Muslim world who are silently sceptical about the mainstream "Islam" being preached by Mullahs, but now with the internet and the presence of many Muslims in the west they can express themselves more and cannot just be ostracized, silenced or even killed.

I am a devout Muslim, pray 5 times a day, been to Hajj, given zakah, fast all days of Ramadan, do certain wadha'if (special supplementary prayers or litanies) and believe in the supernatural and have personally seen with my own eyes miracles, primarily ones emanating from recitation of the Quran, however traditionalists need to understand they cannot just bully and silence those who disagree with their opinions.

Anyway this is my last post on this thread.

I'm out.

[Damir9000]

The Quran is protected by Allah not the hadeeths.

Sunni "Islam" is based on the "saheeh sittah" (authentic six) i.e. 6 main books of hadeeth mainly by what are basically Tajik scholars (ironic given we are on a Pashtun forum).

Even 1,400 years later scholars such as Al-Albanee and others criticized certain hadeeths in Sahih Bukhari as weak, and he even declared wearing gold forbidden for women, whereas the rest of the Sunnis declare it forbidden for men only. Neither have any Quranic basis.

Traditional "Islam" (both Sunni and Shia) has many flaws and when studied more carefully contradicts the Quran.

Also traditional "Islam" has fundamental problems with modernity and producing a fair, dynamic and progressive society especially in the information technology we live in.

There are millions and millions of other people like you in the Muslim world who are silently sceptical about the mainstream "Islam" being preached by Mullahs, but now with the internet and the presence of many Muslims in the west they can express themselves more and cannot just be ostracized, silenced or even killed.

I am a devout Muslim, pray 5 times a day, been to Hajj, given zakah, fast all days of Ramadan, do certain wadha'if (special supplementary prayers or litanies) and believe in the supernatural and have personally seen with my own eyes miracles, primarily ones emanating from recitation of the Quran, however traditionalists need to understand they cannot just bully and silence those who disagree with their opinions.

Anyway this is my last post on this thread.

I'm out.

So Allah's deen has been corrupted again like Christianity.