Helping hamsayas to return to their ethno-cultural-linguistic roots

[DaZahroJaam.]

what is hamsaya??

[DSM0305]

what is hamsaya??

A neighbor.
These guys in the other hand believes it means something else, due to the fact that they got brainwashed by self-proclaimed experts.

[Toramana]

I am more interested about why people do what they do instead of what they should do. If you know the "WHY," then you can control the "WHAT."

That is why I have been saying it is not enough studying the history of your tribe(s) because that may lead you into the illusion of some eternally-lasting glory of your tribe. More appropriately, the question "WHY" should be explored.

WHY societies are in the states in which they are? Why do societies change, Why are they tribal at one time but agrarian or feudal at another. Why do they change from tribal to agrarian, and son on.

As for the "What should they do" part of your comment, societies don't have a choice. Sooner or later they have to change. That is an inevitability. All societies in history at one point or another were tribal or even more primitive. For example when we didn't have agriculture, humans were organized into small wandering bands ---that is the so-called hunter-gatherers societies. With the invention of agriculture and domestication of animals, they became sedentary, i. e., agrarian and/or tribal. With the advancement of science and technology, they became industrial.

Now we are entering another phase, i.e., post-industrial and informational societies.

If a society is not willing to change by itself soon others are going to come and change them by force in a painful way (for example how westerners transform other societies).

So merely the WHY question is also not enough. One should also explore the WHEN question, i. e., when is the society under consideration going to change if its existing state is a cause of its weakness and what can be done to expedite the process.

[DaZahroJaam.]

cham gawanD

a pure farsi word in a thread dedicated to linguistic roots..fabulous.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Now imagine real pakhtun doing low caste job of chokidari in heera mandi, thats what you call real low. Being chokidar of kanjars in heermandi lol. Parachas should be proud of their trading indic routes, they clearly seem to be hindu khatris originally.

There's a reason that Heera Mandi is in Punjab and not Khyber Pakhtunkhwah

"Ghairat"

[Toramana]

Look at America for example: Is Obama seen as an American, sure some people do but not all. Even Giuliani questioned his Americaness while others criticized Giuliani for saying such a thing:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/02/19/obama-rudy-giuliani-politico-love-of-america/23662799/

GW Bush even said that congressmen who voted against the Iraq war are not real Americans. The elder Bush called US Senator Wellstone "Chicken****" because he was so vocal against the his first Iraq war. In politics, people do whatever they can to strengthen their argument and weaken their opponents argument hence why Luffy/Smarty called me a non pashtun for disagreeing with him. If he can attack my pashtun identity and say I am not pashtun, then other members would take my comments with a grain of salt.

You should look at things in relative terms. A century back, African Americans were not considered Americans. Today they are considered more a part of the mainstream.

Besides, you should also keep in mind that Obama and Bush come from different tradition and racial background and it will take relatively longer time for both to be considered equally Americans irrespective of race association. On the contrary a person of European origin other than English will immediately be considered "real American" provided he/she starts speaking English as the first language (but may be more complex I accept). On Pashtun land, you have people similar to you in every way, e.g., language, customs, traditions, looks, yet you say they are different. This is not similar to Obama-Bush example.

Everyone desires it, but it just does not work because people are different with different skills, different personalities, different ambitions, etc. Laws and constitution are useless without enforcement. What US policy makers realized was that building a strong middle class not only creates a strong economy but it also gives people enough economic muscle where they can protect themselves. The poor in the US are still defenseless just like anywhere else in the World. The expansion of the middle class is the main thing, the rest will naturally follow. Just look at China and India, they are expanding the middle class and freedoms are slowly creeping in. Those in the gov that oppose the freedoms will be helpless to stop it.

Not an appropriate analogy. Different abilities, personalities, ambitions, etc. is not an issue as long as every body has the same status in the sense of livelihood, identity, and basic human-dignity. The issue here is, some people claim that on the basis of their tribal lineage, they have more dignity and have the right to be lords and others the serfs.

And middle class doesn't just arise by a wish. You need laws that will make sure all have a levelled playing ground.

A Turai, even though he is Shia, is going to have my back over a Mangal in the tribal belt but in an urban setting, personality and common interest bond would be stronger.

That I agree with.

[DSM0305]

When I lived in Afghanistan, the society/tittle was based upon the profession you had. The ethnicity didn't really matter at all. If you were a doctor, you would be called doctor saib, if you were general, you would be called General. The role of ethnicity was very limited.
The role of ethnicity only got enchanted under the civil war. Even then, it was termed at wider scale of Pashto-zabon and Farsi-zabon. The groups/warlords itself were in the other hand ethnic based. Yet I must add, that even then it was far more political than ethnic based. Maybe the warlords were ethnic based, but the alliance was mixed and by far political/military centralized. One would find pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazara, Uzbek etc. forming alliance and breaking them deepening on the situation. Sometimes even warlords from the same ethnicity fought each other.

To sum it up, the society in Afghanistan is based upon the occupation/profession one got. It really doesn't matter which ethnicity you're from. Your rank/tittle is solely based upon the job you have. I cant speak for Pakistan, because my knowledge is very limited regarding them, but that how the Afghan society works. No one will even ask about the ethnicity, unless you bring it up yourself.
Regarding hamasaya, it literally means neighbor. Nothing more and nothing less. A Pashtun, Tajik, Uzbek, Hazara, Boloch etc. all could be hamasaya if they are your neighbors(kinda logical...).

You guys should really stop basing your opinion from the internet. Use your own experience.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Y.

And no they are not ghilzai, and even if they were then no one would know. You don't even know anything about your own village in Afghanistan so what else is expected, I don't blame you since you've never been to Afghanistan.

.

Lodhis are Ghilzai in origin. They're also known as Ludin in Afghanistan

About Bacha Bazi; Hezak Bazi is how you guys get around that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGO-4IMyfd0

[tripledouble]

When I lived in Afghanistan, the society/tittle was based upon the profession you had. The ethnicity didn't really matter at all. If you were a doctor, you would be called doctor saib, if you were general, you would be called General. The role of ethnicity was very limited.
The role of ethnicity only got enchanted under the civil war. Even then, it was termed at wider scale of Pashto-zabon and Farsi-zabon. The groups/warlords itself were in the other hand ethnic based. Yet I must add, that even then it was far more political than ethnic based. Maybe the warlords were ethnic based, but the alliance was mixed and by far political/military centralized. One would find pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazara, Uzbek etc. forming alliance and breaking them deepening on the situation. Sometimes even warlords from the same ethnicity fought each other.

To sum it up, the society in Afghanistan is based upon the occupation/profession one got. It really doesn't matter which ethnicity you're from. Your rank/tittle is solely based upon the job you have. I cant speak for Pakistan, because my knowledge is very limited regarding them, but that how the Afghan society works. No one will even ask about the ethnicity, unless you bring it up yourself.
Regarding hamasaya, it literally means neighbor. Nothing more and nothing less. A Pashtun, Tajik, Uzbek, Hazara, Boloch etc. all could be hamasaya if they are your neighbors(kinda logical...).

You guys should really stop basing your opinion from the internet. Use your own experience.

no **** sherlock samething in Pakistan regarding ethnicity/relations, btw u completely misunderstood toramana, go learn how to read koonibaaz

[tilla_jogian]

There's a reason that Heera Mandi is in Punjab and not Khyber Pakhtunkhwah

"Ghairat"

If we can stop kanjri supply from Afghanistan then even KPK heera mandi will be closed, hopefully you can put some real sense of ghairat in to your family members.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

If we can stop kanjri supply from Afghanistan then even KPK heera mandi will be closed, hopefully you can put some real sense of ghairat in to your family members.

Heera Mandi is in Punjab though and it was started there hundreds of years ago. Long before any of this. KPK has more Afghan Nationals yet there's no Heera Mandi there. The problem is clearly a Punjabi thing

[Toramana]

Toramana,

This is an interesting thread that you have opened and i agree on some parts and disagree on others. I also knew you were not a Paracha from the very beginning but rather a Yousafzai from swat just playing mind games with people.

I am not a Paracha but I am not a Pashtun (and Yousafzai) either. On one or two occasions, when I mentioned this to my Pashtun friends just in an academic context they were kind of upset as to why I am separating myself from Pashtuns. Lol-

Because I speak the same language and my family has lived for centuries with Pashtuns, my interests align with Pashtuns and I will put my lot with them but I will strive for every body to have the same rights and status.

By the way, this is increasingly becoming irrelevant as well. As I mentioned Malakand Division and Peshawar Valley have changed almost completely with tribal lineages no longer counting much in deciding a person's position in society.

And it is inevitable that the society will change more and with more rapidity.

As for Akhund Khels, i don't think they are Tajiks but rather Syeds as they also claim this themselves. Even the word "Akhund" is persian title mostly given to islamic clerics or imams.

Akhundkhels are Tajaks actually. They are the descendants of Akhun Dervaiza Baba who was a 16th-17th Century Saint of Tajak origin. This he writes himself in his "Tazkir-al- Abrar-wal-Ashrars".

[DSM0305]

no **** sherlock samething in Pakistan regarding ethnicity/relations, btw u completely misunderstood toramana, go learn how to read koonibaaz

De'tar ara morr kuss me ghowalai'da, de Punjabi bachaya. Pa Hera mandi'ke kho de'tar mor kha gadedaler. khuday'ce ta zama zoy ye, ya de bel'cha. De al'cha ce ye, bya'kham meskeen ta kuni paida' saway'ye.

[tilla_jogian]

Heera Mandi is in Punjab though and it was started there hundreds of years ago. Long before any of this. KPK has more Afghan Nationals yet there's no Heera Mandi there. The problem is clearly a Punjabi thing

But you guys supply afghani kanjris to all heera mandis of Pakistan. Kanjarkhana is called heera mandi in Pakistan. Likes of you are kown as ''dallas''.

[Toramana]

seeking protection of stronger clans are things mentioned only in books or were practiced some 50 years before. today an isolated waziri family living in my area who buy a land from me will be considered hamsaya no matter how big landlord or warrior he is in waziristan.
i have a question for you. people of Abakhel and dalokhel are not ethnic pashtun yet they enjoy much status and respect in whole marwat community than surrounding villages of ethnic pashtun. and it has nothing to do with the fact that they are the descendants of Aba shaheed khel a saint considered as syed, but the status and respect and leverage over ordinary pashtun they enjoy is because they are not vulnerable, they are landlord and possess the tit for tat traits. they are known for feuds, criminal activities, selling drugs and of course education. why they are not considered hamsaya ? our MNA belongs from this village, how can a pasthun vote for hamsaya? isn't it means the word hamsaya has nothing to do with ethnicity but with vulnerability?

I concur with Marwat here.

Momands in Charssada and part of Mardan are an example. When they descended from Momand agency onto the Charssada plains, they became the serfs of Mohammadzai khans of Charssada having the same status as the hamsayas. Their women worked in the homes of those khans.

Later they became active in the kissan movement and communist parties. There was one Afzal Bangash that had a role in organizing them against khans.

Another example is the Utman Khels of Arang Barang. As their land is un-productive, many of them migrated to the plain areas of Dargai-Malakand where they either became serfs of the already established landlords (ironically many of them Shilmanis) or were impoverished with lesser status.

Many of them became active in the politics of the left later. Rahmat Shah Sail, Sahib Shah Sabir are some examples of such left-leaning Utman Khel Pashto poets.

Another example is when Malizai of Dir will migrate in winters to the plain areas of Malakand-Mardan to find better grazing grounds for their cattle. They were subjected to the same treatment as other serf classes.