Helping hamsayas to return to their ethno-cultural-linguistic roots

[Toramana]

From the discussion on this from where many learned Pashtuns participate and extensive interaction with Pashtuns in practical life, I have come to the conclusion that Pashtun ethnicity is not an inclusive and all-transcending identity but in fact is an ancestral and genealogical relationship with other members of your tribe.

The whole concept of being a Pashtun is if you can trace your lineage along tribal lines to some apocryphal ancestry no matter whatever your political allegiances or cultural orientation (because language or values are also not a strict requirement as in the case of Imran Khan or Persian or Punjabi or Urdu-speaking Pashtuns), you are as proud and authentic Pashtun as the one who is championing the Pashtun cause politically or culturally.

This contrasts with the Punjabi or Sindhi identity as tilla_jogian has pointed out where speaking the language is the only criterion for being a Punjabi or a Sindhi.

An evidence of this fact is, when I ignorantly tried to bestow upon the Bengal_Tiger the honorary title of a Pashtun (that he wisely regretted) to which some members reacted by saying that the privilege cannot be extended to someone who is not a part of the tribal structure. At that time I thought it is just a funny comment but now I realize it was a serious comment.

Anyhow, this situation raises a crucial question, i. e., if those that speak Pashto but don't have a tribal pedigree are not Pashtuns then who they are or what is their identity? Here some people have used the term "hamsaya" but that is not an identity. That is a derogatory word that the dominant group imposed on them to underline their lower status in the society just like negro is a pejorative term that the white people labelled the people of African origin with to describe their status.

So Hamsaya cannot be their identity. then what is their identity? This leads to further two questions, i. e.,

-what is the argument, attraction, or incentive for them to continue speaking Pashto and/or have allegiance to or association with Pashtuns or Pashtun identity? Does it raise their prestige or benefits them in any other way, e.g., in terms of economy? The answer is, neither it gives them respect within the society nor brings them any economic benefit. Their status is just like Anglo-Indians who basically were Indians but adopted English as first language under British colonial domination(well there is a huge merit in having English as the first language).

So Pashto is not a natural or reasonable choice for hamsayas to be retained as the mother tongue. Thus they should rediscover their real mother tongue that they spoke before Pashtun came and spread Pashto.

In my opinion, before Yousafzai came to Peshawar Valley there was a Hindko-like language spoken there. In Swat and Malakand on the contrary was spoken Kohistani and possibly also Dari as mentioned by Tawarikh-Hafiz Rahmat Khani.

But adopting these languages may not be a feasible option. Fortunately, a very feasible option is Urdu, which will be an absolutely reasonable choice.

-What is the identity of Pashto-speaking non-Pashtuns in KP and elsewhere? In my opinion, they should adopt an identity that would have future relevance. The most reasonable choice looking at the geographical factor is the main Pakistani identity based on some local values and life-style and Urdu language.

I hope other members comment on this especially Bengal_Tiger, Khushal, Kushan Prince, Yousafzai, Marwat, and others who want to participate in the discussion.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Toramana,

I'm essentially leaving the forum for a while for a variety of reasons including getting ready for Ramadan (after I leave, I expect the site to go much quieter, Mahmood al-Yemeni a.k.a. Brown Skinned Savage a.k.a Revulsion Through Ranting is also another reason why many people - mainly females - have left this site and he is free here off the leash to bark as much as he wants, very bad for the forum).

However since you mentioned my name.

I am Bengali.

Even my nickname says "Bengal_Tiger", clearly alluding to my origins as a Bengali, and nothing else.

I respect Pashtuns but do not wish to be one e.g. I am not learning Pashto, for example has anyone here ever seen me on the many Pashto language learning threads? Hallo takes a far greater interest in learning Pashto than I do.

Other than that there is much I could say but won't (due to my unhappiness with Mahmood al-Yemeni roaming around this site, unleashed, barking away), however all I will say is this.

Modern Pashtun nationalism is inclusive, pluralistic, tolerant, peaceful and humanistic.

The father of modern Pashtun nationalism is Badshah Khan (rahmatullahi 'alaih).

In his party, the ANP there are senior ethnically non-Pashtun leaders such as Hajji Adeel, Bilour, Tariq Aqeel, Ahsan Wynne and others.



Unfortunately there will be class/tribal racism amongst Pashtuns but this is a universal trait.

In Saudi Arabia, the Najdis believe (correctly) they rule the country and deride the people of Hejaz as "banu hujjaj" or "buqay hujjaj" (children or leftovers of the hujjaj - pilgrims to Mecca) i.e. as not true Arabs/Saudis but people who are descended from foreign immigrants.

Then there is also the Bukhari community in Saudi for example (originally from Bukhara in central Asia) who to outsiders would be viewed as "Saudis" but in Saudi society would be looked down upon as not real Saudis despite having the citizenship.

This sort of phenomenon is everywhere.

Amongst the "actual" original Pashtuns of Pakhtunkhwa there are divisions. Afridis hate Khattaks, Shinwaris hate Mandokhails, this group hates that group and sometimes in localities people kill each other in blood feuds. Far more serious than a rude or insulting comment or internet ridicule.

In the modern era what counts is education and employment. That is effective when there is a political, social and economic infrastructure which awards successful education rather than tribal lineage. If we live in a society that prevents that and perpetuates domination due to birth or lineage (a form of racism) then that is a problem which must be tackled. If however we live in a society where there is social mobility via education, business, employment, a more egalitarian and meritocratic society that is better. This is something more realistic in the modern urban context than in past millenia where we have seen agricultural societies, which have been feudalistic or hierarchical.

The tribal Pashtuns live in the real world. They are migrating to Karachi and the Arabian gulf for work, yes someone may be a "blue blooded" Waziri but if he is a labourer sweating away in Dubai so what? Especially if there is an educated Paracha working in a nice air conditioned office in Islamabad.

I have a friend who is a Paracha from Kohat who considers himself totally Pashtun (we don't have deep discussions like on Pashtun forums, but from what I can see he considers himself Pashtun completely and has some sympathies to Pashtun nationalism) and is now working in a nice job (I think in Islamabad) for a senior organization.

I have another friend who is a Mian from Pekhawar who considers himself totally Pashtun as well and though he won't say it directly, seems to be a millionaire or at the least from a very well of family.

So all this talk of "pure lineage" is anachronistic, somewhat jahil and becoming increasingly more irrelevant in the education-centric modern world.

Not to say (with all due respect to any Indian or Hindu silent readers) reminiscent of Indic Hindu castism.

So be proud to be Paracha.



[MENTION=17210]Tiger Khan[/MENTION] is a Pakhtun from Islamabad and finds the mentality of KPK/FATA Pakhtuns somewhat alien to him, so his opinion would be interesting.

Anyway just to add there is class division/prejudice/racism everywhere.





To everyone else please don't tag me in threads (not that Toramana did, in fact he politely and courteously displayed respect by asking for my opinion) or mention me or quote me, I might return as an active poster after Eid.

[Toramana]

Herein is an opportunity for Pakistani ideological, political, and cultural elite concerned with the consolidation of the national identity of Pakistan and dealing with ethnic irredentism in Pashtun areas to resolve the issue of ethnic nationalism in KP once for all (lol).

The vast majority of the population of KP is in reality "hamsaya". I can claim with confidence that 60%-70% people in Malakand Division are non-Pashtun Pashto-speaking hamsaya. In Peshawar Valley, this ratio can be even higher. So is also the case with Kohat and DI Khan. In FATA though, this ratio may be lower and the majority may be Pashtun.

What can they do is to run and support a campaign in these hamsayas communities/people through indirect and secret means to encourage them to change their language and to adopt the mainstream Pakistani identity (centred on Urdu and mainstream/popular Pakistani culture) that will give them more respect, recognition, and opportunity.

As a first step, there should be articles, books, pamphlets, etc. published telling these people how did they come to speak Pashto, what was their original language, who they originally were, and how did they come to be pejoratively called "hamsaya".

In the second phase, charismatic and vocal leaders should be identified and enlisted that would organize the hamsayas politically and socially. It may also be possible that the Khyber Pukhtunkhwa representation/share in the parliament, federal and provincial jobs, armed forces, etc. is divided between the Pashtuns and hamsayas (non-Pashtuns) according to the proportions of their populations.

To inflame their passion for returning to their original identity/roots and adopting Urdu as their first language they can be told that the natural choice for them as the first language can only be Urdu and that retaining Pashto as the first language can neither give them respect and identity nor any economic or political or social benefit. Furthermore, they can be told as what ordeal and oppressive conditions they had to pass through to come to be called "hamsaya" and how they were humiliated which included such acts as the dishonouring of their women as suggested here in this forum by some members (the film kite runner may be useful here).

The risk associated with this step though may be the heightening of hostility and hatred between the two groups, i. e., Pashtuns and hamsayas.

There are high chances that with the above strategy within a span of one or two generations, majority of KP population will adopt Urdu as the first language. Even if the rate of that is slow, the immediate impact will be an increase in the disassociation in "hamsayas" from any type of Pashtun identity or sentiment.

One is regretful to suggest the above but from humanistic point of view, you cannot let the victims to always be the victims.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

I thought females were leaving because Bengal_predator was sending them "pokes" and other unwanted sexual advances in PM and on their profiles. Like he was doing to Eyeliner and Gulalai. Disgusting especially considering it's a Bengali doing this, which is basically the equivalent of a Ghetto Black person trying to flirt with women on a Subway.


Anyways @ Toramana, You wrote a very pertinent term ..."Apocryphal".
It's important because it summarizes everything That's wrong with our part of the world.

We're too eager to identify with mythology and exaggerate our past. The truth is that our origins like many other things are complex and a product of the different interactions of humans in the past.

Our lack of understanding of this is what leads us with this short sighted outlook on ethnic identity, Both Lacking in pride and Bolstering Pride with empty merits.

This is why we have people like Bengal_Tranny here; who try night and day to run some pretentious chaproosi game. Paying lip service that he's a proud Bengali but then posting threads where he boasts about Sher Shah Suri, a Pashtun conquering Bengal. he's not berated because he's Bengali;but because he shows a certain lack of dignity and self respect. No self respecting person would be PROUD of being conquered by a foreigner, even if it happened. How many Pashtuns brag about Babur taking Bibi Mubaraka as his wife and giving graphic details of how he ravaged her in Baburnama?

On the flipside we have Pashtuns who create this imagination that we're 5,000 years old, That Pashtuns are mentioned in history, we were the Bactrians , we were The Gandharans, we were everybody that had been famous and had mighty empires...yet Never referring to themselves as Pashtuns. Inflated hype.

Pride can be a healthy and beneficial thing; Pashtuns having pride can be good when it comes to self respect, not accepting a foreign conqueror no matter what "good" they may do or "bad'. But likewise pride can cripple and delude us just as the two cases above.

But one who is truly proud of himself and his origins, celebrates truth and only truth. This is where you find your dignity and pride.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Btw [MENTION=1201]Toramana[/MENTION]

It is said that the rebellion in Swat was also largely about feudalism and land issues.

http://www.academia.edu/8682256/Exceptional_Pashtuns_Class_Politics_Imperialism_and_Historiography

Apparently the Taliban capitalized on legitimate grievances of locals about inequality and discrimination.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Herein is an opportunity for Pakistani ideological, political, and cultural elite concerned with the consolidation of the national identity of Pakistan and dealing with ethnic irredentism in Pashtun areas to resolve the issue of ethnic nationalism in KP once for all (lol).

The vast majority of the population of KP is in reality "hamsaya". I can claim with confidence that 60%-70% people in Malakand Division are non-Pashtun Pashto-speaking hamsaya. In Peshawar Valley, this ratio can be even higher. So is also the case with Kohat and DI Khan. In FATA though, this ratio may be lower and the majority may be Pashtun.

What can they do is to run and support a campaign in these hamsayas communities/people through indirect and secret means to encourage them to change their language and to adopt the mainstream Pakistani identity (centred on Urdu and mainstream/popular Pakistani culture) that will give them more respect, recognition, and opportunity.

As a first step, there should be articles, books, pamphlets, etc. published telling these people how did they come to speak Pashto, what was their original language, who they originally were, and how did they come to be pejoratively called "hamsaya".

In the second phase, charismatic and vocal leaders should be identified and enlisted that would organize the hamsayas politically and socially. It may also be possible that the Khyber Pukhtunkhwa representation/share in the parliament, federal and provincial jobs, armed forces, etc. is divided between the Pashtuns and hamsayas (non-Pashtuns) according to the proportions of their populations.

To inflame their passion for returning to their original identity/roots and adopting Urdu as their first language they can be told that the natural choice for them as the first language can only be Urdu and that retaining Pashto as the first language can neither give them respect and identity nor any economic or political or social benefit. Furthermore, they can be told as what ordeal and oppressive conditions they had to pass through to come to be called "hamsaya" and how they were humiliated which included such acts as the dishonouring of their women as suggested here in this forum by some members (the film kite runner may be useful here).

The risk associated with this step though may be the heightening of hostility and hatred between the two groups, i. e., Pashtuns and hamsayas.

There are high chances that with the above strategy within a span of one or two generations, majority of KP population will adopt Urdu as the first language. Even if the rate of that is slow, the immediate impact will be an increase in the disassociation in "hamsayas" from any type of Pashtun identity or sentiment.

One is regretful to suggest the above but from humanistic point of view, you cannot let the victims to always be the victims.

Cannot modern Pashtun nationalism (e.g. ANP etc) which is civic-based and not ethnically based and also pro-land reform, deal with the needs of these people?

At the end of the day they are Pashtun in that the Arabized Moroccans, Algerians, Egyptians, Syrians are Arabs and in the same way that the Arabic language is an inherent part of them, the language which they grew up speaking, playing with friends in during their childhood, nostalgic memories etc.

To completely discard their Pashtun identity and language would be somewhat artificial (not a natural and gradual process) and abrupt.

Anyway there are several million Pashtuns in Karachi and within a generation or two (if Pakistan survives) they will probably end up becoming Urdu-speakers but still "Pashtuns" akin to the Dari-speaking Pashtuns of Afghanistan i.e. ethnically Pashtun but linguistically not.

[Toramana]

Bengal_Tiger and Brown Skinned Savage, to tell you the truth I am not a Paracha. I was just pretending and kind of showing to some folk here, if you are considering me a Paracha let that be and that "I don't care". For me personally, being a Pashtun doesn't mean anything special and if things come to that I will like to be identified with Parachas (proudly) than Pashtuns. And I say that on merit and not as a reaction because I know that Parachas are industrious, humble, haven't harmed others, etc.

On a personal level I have gone beyond the distinction of language, ethnicity, race, and religion and will readily connect with any person that I can have an exchange of views and can work with in a mutually respectful and accommodating way. I can adjust and live in any fair society. My interest in Pashtuns was "Pashtuns as a people" that should have the opportunity to live in peace and freedom and not as a collection of tribes. I never conceived of a society where you have a tribe-based privileged nobility on the one hand and massive slave-like subject-class on the other. That is so backward and regressive.

It is so ironic that you complain of racism when you experience it (e.g., in the West or Arab countries) yet exercise it in your own society in a most macabre way; what a hypocrisy and moral/ethical contradiction.

I am not a Pashtun and don't want to be if it doesn't mean an environment of equality, merit, and an unconditional respect for all but pride over tribal credentials. My family was a middle class family with typical middle class values, i. e., emphasis on education, respect for elders, avoiding use of bad language and intoxicants or indulging in negative activities, etc. It taught me these values not the attitude of questionable tribal supremacy.

Probably, there were not many Pashtun families in our village and our family was a respectable family (due to education) so I didn't get exposed to the this hamsaya, Pashtun type distinction.

But this thing does exist. Few years back I met a person from Kunar Afghanistan. The person had worked in BBC Pashto service and spoke Pashto but I found in him extreme hostility and resentment towards Pashtuns. He told me he has been treated like an alien throughout his life although he spoke Pashto. There was a Pashai person accompanying him who was relatively less resentful but more inclined to identify himself with Tajaks for his preference to live in a tribe-less inclusive society.

I have met many such people (ranging in many dozens) including very educated people such as journalists, doctors, bureaucrats, who have this mindset or are victims of this mindset (even here in diaspora). Probably I was wrong in doing what I was doing and a people should first develop a civilized view of living in a society, and the definition and interpretation of its values, then deserve autonomy and self-rule. Probably, it is better first to live in a diverse society ruled by enlightened people where diversity, modernity, education, affluence help transform and moderate tribal attitudes.

And as you said for me it doesn't carry even one cent of importance whether I am a Pashtun or something else as long as I am free to do the good things that I want to do in life and am respected for my contribution instead of my tribal pedigree. And this I expect for all members of the society.

Anyhow thank you both for nice insights.

[Toramana]

Btw [MENTION=1201]Toramana[/MENTION]

It is said that the rebellion in Swat was also largely about feudalism and land issues.

http://www.academia.edu/8682256/Exceptional_Pashtuns_Class_Politics_Imperialism_and_Historiography

Apparently the Taliban capitalized on legitimate grievances of locals about inequality and discrimination.

Bengal_Tiger, that is absolutely correct. The feudals in upper Swat the center of Taleban movement have been extremely oppressive with such degenerate habits and views that one cannot even sit with them for a few minutes with having feelings of revulsion (except for a few noble ones).

The Taleban movement was exactly a reaction to that oppression.

I have many personal examples but I will tell you.

I met a young Gujjar, very intelligent and an engineer. Gujjars have been one of the most marginalized caste in Swat treated very inhumanly by Khans and Pashtuns.

He suddenly became very religious, grew a beard, adopted an Arabic name (starting with Abu) and probably went to Kashmir for "Jehad". Once I had a long discussion with him persuading him to focus on his studies and career and he told me that is the only way to have a just society.

I could feel how being a religious leader and warrior has given him a sense of dignity, power (with the gun that he had for jehad), and prestige that he could not have as a "gujjar".

[tripledouble]

Herein is an opportunity for Pakistani ideological, political, and cultural elite concerned with the consolidation of the national identity of Pakistan and dealing with ethnic irredentism in Pashtun areas to resolve the issue of ethnic nationalism in KP once for all (lol).

The vast majority of the population of KP is in reality "hamsaya". I can claim with confidence that 60%-70% people in Malakand Division are non-Pashtun Pashto-speaking hamsaya. In Peshawar Valley, this ratio can be even higher. So is also the case with Kohat and DI Khan. In FATA though, this ratio may be lower and the majority may be Pashtun.

What can they do is to run and support a campaign in these hamsayas communities/people through indirect and secret means to encourage them to change their language and to adopt the mainstream Pakistani identity (centred on Urdu and mainstream/popular Pakistani culture) that will give them more respect, recognition, and opportunity.

As a first step, there should be articles, books, pamphlets, etc. published telling these people how did they come to speak Pashto, what was their original language, who they originally were, and how did they come to be pejoratively called "hamsaya".

In the second phase, charismatic and vocal leaders should be identified and enlisted that would organize the hamsayas politically and socially. It may also be possible that the Khyber Pukhtunkhwa representation/share in the parliament, federal and provincial jobs, armed forces, etc. is divided between the Pashtuns and hamsayas (non-Pashtuns) according to the proportions of their populations.

To inflame their passion for returning to their original identity/roots and adopting Urdu as their first language they can be told that the natural choice for them as the first language can only be Urdu and that retaining Pashto as the first language can neither give them respect and identity nor any economic or political or social benefit. Furthermore, they can be told as what ordeal and oppressive conditions they had to pass through to come to be called "hamsaya" and how they were humiliated which included such acts as the dishonouring of their women as suggested here in this forum by some members (the film kite runner may be useful here).

The risk associated with this step though may be the heightening of hostility and hatred between the two groups, i. e., Pashtuns and hamsayas.

There are high chances that with the above strategy within a span of one or two generations, majority of KP population will adopt Urdu as the first language. Even if the rate of that is slow, the immediate impact will be an increase in the disassociation in "hamsayas" from any type of Pashtun identity or sentiment.

One is regretful to suggest the above but from humanistic point of view, you cannot let the victims to always be the victims.

Your language were Dardic language, try learning Chitrali,kashmiri or Gilgiti culture & language or maybe Hindko like u said

U r right, no matter how much u try Pashtunize urself, no matter how much u speak or fight for Pashtun causes, u will always be a third class "Pashtun" if not hamsaya; so better be a first class Hamsaya in tough with ur full history & culture, u r the natives of the land, nobody can kick u out

[DSM0305]

I can smell identity crisis. Didn't expect that from you toramana.

[tripledouble]

I can smell identity crisis. Didn't expect that from you toramana.

more like a realization of of ones roots and actual identity and the realization that ethnofascism could turn on the very supporters of it

[tilla_jogian]

more like a realization of of ones roots and actual identity and the realization that ethnofascism could turn on the very supporters of it

Exactly, identity crisis is trying to fit among those who reject you on race/ethnic basis.

Correct me if I am wrong, most people in Hazara divison are hindko speaking pashtuns or pathans right?

[tripledouble]

Exactly, identity crisis is trying to fit among those who reject you on race/ethnic basis.

Correct me if I am wrong, most people in Hazara divison are hindko speaking pashtuns or pathans right?

Mix,some Punjabi,some gujjar,some kashmiri, and some kohistani

[tilla_jogian]

Herein is an opportunity for Pakistani ideological, political, and cultural elite concerned with the consolidation of the national identity of Pakistan and dealing with ethnic irredentism in Pashtun areas to resolve the issue of ethnic nationalism in KP once for all (lol).

The vast majority of the population of KP is in reality "hamsaya". I can claim with confidence that 60%-70% people in Malakand Division are non-Pashtun Pashto-speaking hamsaya. In Peshawar Valley, this ratio can be even higher. So is also the case with Kohat and DI Khan. In FATA though, this ratio may be lower and the majority may be Pashtun.

What can they do is to run and support a campaign in these hamsayas communities/people through indirect and secret means to encourage them to change their language and to adopt the mainstream Pakistani identity (centred on Urdu and mainstream/popular Pakistani culture) that will give them more respect, recognition, and opportunity.

As a first step, there should be articles, books, pamphlets, etc. published telling these people how did they come to speak Pashto, what was their original language, who they originally were, and how did they come to be pejoratively called "hamsaya".

In the second phase, charismatic and vocal leaders should be identified and enlisted that would organize the hamsayas politically and socially. It may also be possible that the Khyber Pukhtunkhwa representation/share in the parliament, federal and provincial jobs, armed forces, etc. is divided between the Pashtuns and hamsayas (non-Pashtuns) according to the proportions of their populations.

To inflame their passion for returning to their original identity/roots and adopting Urdu as their first language they can be told that the natural choice for them as the first language can only be Urdu and that retaining Pashto as the first language can neither give them respect and identity nor any economic or political or social benefit. Furthermore, they can be told as what ordeal and oppressive conditions they had to pass through to come to be called "hamsaya" and how they were humiliated which included such acts as the dishonouring of their women as suggested here in this forum by some members (the film kite runner may be useful here).

The risk associated with this step though may be the heightening of hostility and hatred between the two groups, i. e., Pashtuns and hamsayas.

There are high chances that with the above strategy within a span of one or two generations, majority of KP population will adopt Urdu as the first language. Even if the rate of that is slow, the immediate impact will be an increase in the disassociation in "hamsayas" from any type of Pashtun identity or sentiment.

One is regretful to suggest the above but from humanistic point of view, you cannot let the victims to always be the victims.

No need for such measures, urbanization is taking care of this. And non-pakhtun ANP members are just used as token, just like MQM will claim to have pathan members as well. Both are racist parties based on race.

Funny thing is there is some ANP member who is "syed" yet used to come on tv and say Imran Khan is not real pathan. lol These wannabe pathans are in rude awakening in this caste based society.

[Badlun]

Toramana
I really appreciate your talent and thought. I will suggest that we may take this issue lightly. Being Pashtun is identity,a reality like being German or Arab etc. Take it as it is. Here is no question of morality or politics. If you are Pashtun,be proud of it. If not,it doesn't matter.
Your statistics that KP or Malaka nd is majority non Pashtun,is categorically wrong. Both are more than 80% pure Pashtun.
Pashto is the lingua franca of KP and Pashtun parts of Balochistan and Afghanistan. If non Pashtuns use it,there is nothing wrong with that.