Helping hamsayas to return to their ethno-cultural-linguistic roots

[tilla_jogian]

-What is the identity of Pashto-speaking non-Pashtuns in KP and elsewhere? In my opinion, they should adopt an identity that would have future relevance. The most reasonable choice looking at the geographical factor is the main Pakistani identity based on some local values and life-style and Urdu language.
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Pakistani identity is god gift for people like you and other kammi/landless people in Pakistan rural areas. Any of you wishing to become slaves of certain ethnic group will be absolute retarded decision. You know punjab is not even indigenous name, it was given by foreigners. Punjabis in rural areas never identify as punjabis, they are clannish, racist, jahils especially zamindars. And you know what is more funny? They don't even realize it they are racist or are going against Islam by putting down kammi people and not considering them as equal.

[tilla_jogian]

Toramana
I really appreciate your talent and thought. I will suggest that we may take this issue lightly. Being Pashtun is identity,a reality like being German or Arab etc. Take it as it is. Here is no question of morality or politics. If you are Pashtun,be proud of it. If not,it doesn't matter.
Your statistics that KP or Malaka nd is majority non Pashtun,is categorically wrong. Both are more than 80% pure Pashtun.
Pashto is the lingua franca of KP and Pashtun parts of Balochistan and Afghanistan. If non Pashtuns use it,there is nothing wrong with that.

Exaggerated to say the least, the only caste based population reports we have is old ones from British times.

[Toramana]

Toramana
I really appreciate your talent and thought. I will suggest that we may take this issue lightly. Being Pashtun is identity,a reality like being German or Arab etc.

We should avoid arguments based on wrong analogies.

I don't think German -a post modern society-or even Arab (still predominantly medieval) identity is based on a rigid tribal pedigree that Pashtun or some other less developed societies to a pretty higher degree are. Any person with a European looks and German as the first language will be immediately accepted as a German. It will take a bit longer time for the degree of diversification to occur for a non-European looking person to be fully accepted as a German though. There is no analogy with Pashtuns here.

A more appropriate example would be America. Who is an American? One cannot associate a particular look or a tribal pedigree with being American. Constitutionally and civic-ally, all are the same. The only universal qualifiers to be an American are English and citizenship.

I don't care whether I am called a Pashtun, a kammi, a hamsaya, a cat, or a lizard (lol) -people can make any assumption about me as would make them comfortable in their narcissistic, self-delusional thinking . The point is, Pashtuns should now take a step beyond tribalism and shouldn't try to be like a pack of wolf or dogs that would jealously guard their tribal territory and not let others in even if like them.

Pashtuns are already becoming a nation of labourers on both sides of the Durand Line due to the inability to politically unite in a socially inclusive way (because of the tribal divisions) to secure their economic rights. And if things continued so, they will further be left behind.

Tribal-minded Pashtuns don't have any right to be a drag on others that want to socially and culturally progress and not stay in pre-history. This is true of Afghanistan as well where non-tribal groups like Tajaks, etc. want to move ahead.

Your statistics that KP or Malaka nd is majority non Pashtun,is categorically wrong. Both are more than 80% pure Pashtun.

With a belief in facts I would not have showed reluctance accepting your claims only if it were true. Go to the major urban centres, towns, and villages in Malakand, e.g., Batkhela, Thana, Barikote, Mingora (with a 0.6 million population), Matta, Khwaza Khela, Chakdara, Timergara, Dir, etc. and do a survey you would find the Pashtun, non-Pashtun ratio as 20%-80% by pessimistic measures.

I invite you to go to any village or town between Thana and Mingora (why not start with Ghalaigai, Manyar) and ask people about the names of Mahallahs and its inhabitants and about the proportion of different groups and they will tell you who is the majority.

To give you example, Madayan and surrounding villages are all Akhun Khel. Primarily, they are Tajaks (have maternal relations with them). There are other people as well though.

Pashto is the lingua franca of KP and Pashtun parts of Balochistan and Afghanistan. If non Pashtuns use it,there is nothing wrong with that.

May be but most likely some Urdunized form of Pashto will emerge as the non-Pashtun majority will have their political-cultural choices and impacts felt more re-soundly.

[khushal]

Toramana - why don't you stop being a loyal slave of Yusufzai Pashtuns and rediscover your Paracha/Jatt/Dom/Kutanay/Kasabgar/Kamnasal/Hamsaya ethno-linguistic identity?

Parachas are much more successful than Pashtuns.

Khar-dimagh Pathans, especially the homos of Afghanistan, are a lost cause but Indic types are generally successful.

I depends, the indic types in the lower caste are not that successful like the indic types that have to work in heera mundi.

Also indic types in paksitan getting welfare check from America to be obedient does not count for success.

[khushal]

From the discussion on this from where many learned Pashtuns participate and extensive interaction with Pashtuns in practical life, I have come to the conclusion that Pashtun ethnicity is not an inclusive and all-transcending identity but in fact is an ancestral and genealogical relationship with other members of your tribe.

The whole concept of being a Pashtun is if you can trace your lineage along tribal lines to some apocryphal ancestry no matter whatever your political allegiances or cultural orientation (because language or values are also not a strict requirement as in the case of Imran Khan or Persian or Punjabi or Urdu-speaking Pashtuns), you are as proud and authentic Pashtun as the one who is championing the Pashtun cause politically or culturally.

This contrasts with the Punjabi or Sindhi identity as tilla_jogian has pointed out where speaking the language is the only criterion for being a Punjabi or a Sindhi.

An evidence of this fact is, when I ignorantly tried to bestow upon the Bengal_Tiger the honorary title of a Pashtun (that he wisely regretted) to which some members reacted by saying that the privilege cannot be extended to someone who is not a part of the tribal structure. At that time I thought it is just a funny comment but now I realize it was a serious comment.

Anyhow, this situation raises a crucial question, i. e., if those that speak Pashto but don't have a tribal pedigree are not Pashtuns then who they are or what is their identity? Here some people have used the term "hamsaya" but that is not an identity. That is a derogatory word that the dominant group imposed on them to underline their lower status in the society just like negro is a pejorative term that the white people labelled the people of African origin with to describe their status.

So Hamsaya cannot be their identity. then what is their identity? This leads to further two questions, i. e.,

-what is the argument, attraction, or incentive for them to continue speaking Pashto and/or have allegiance to or association with Pashtuns or Pashtun identity? Does it raise their prestige or benefits them in any other way, e.g., in terms of economy? The answer is, neither it gives them respect within the society nor brings them any economic benefit. Their status is just like Anglo-Indians who basically were Indians but adopted English as first language under British colonial domination(well there is a huge merit in having English as the first language).

So Pashto is not a natural or reasonable choice for hamsayas to be retained as the mother tongue. Thus they should rediscover their real mother tongue that they spoke before Pashtun came and spread Pashto.

In my opinion, before Yousafzai came to Peshawar Valley there was a Hindko-like language spoken there. In Swat and Malakand on the contrary was spoken Kohistani and possibly also Dari as mentioned by Tawarikh-Hafiz Rahmat Khani.

But adopting these languages may not be a feasible option. Fortunately, a very feasible option is Urdu, which will be an absolutely reasonable choice.

-What is the identity of Pashto-speaking non-Pashtuns in KP and elsewhere? In my opinion, they should adopt an identity that would have future relevance. The most reasonable choice looking at the geographical factor is the main Pakistani identity based on some local values and life-style and Urdu language.

I hope other members comment on this especially Bengal_Tiger, Khushal, Kushan Prince, Yousafzai, Marwat, and others who want to participate in the discussion.

I am guessing Luffy/Smarty is getting under your skin and has shifted your whole way of thinking.

But what you say exists everywhere, People put each other down in any way possible to lift themselves up. If tilla jian thinks that by speaking panjabi, then you are panjabi, that does not extinguish the fact that the certain people are still regarded as "Kam" from others simple because of Caste. Your dream of living in a classless society is probably why you are attracted to communism but that's a myth also since classless societies don't really exist.

Even America has classes, its just that Western societies have built enough wealth to build the middle class which are the majority where in places like India and Pakistan, the lower class are the majority who hardly have enough to feed themselves.

Spending your energy to destroy Pashto and create an Urdu identity is useless and it really helps no one but probably create animosity between the people that live in KP and how dose that help your people. English is taking over the subcontinent anyways and every other language is losing clout. The best thing to spend your energy on is doing what the West has done and that is to build up a middle class. That would be the best way to detribalize the people. I myself believe that the Pashtuns that live up in the mountains of FATA and PAktia would be the last to detribalize, not by choice but because their environment prevents them from detribalizing.

Luffy/Smarty even called me a non Pashtun after I disagreed with him on a common Pashtun progenitor. Don't let these things bother you. When someone puts you down, you could put them down or brush it off. This is the internet that allows everyone to talk like a fearless warrior. Intelligence on the other hand has to be earned.

[khushal]

On another note, I never knew that hamsaya is a derogatory term in Pakistan. I always thought it meant neighbor.

[marwat]

On another note, I never knew that hamsaya is a derogatory term in Pakistan. I always thought it meant neighbor.

yes it meant neighbor, in our society those families who moves from one village to another are regarded as hamsaya too. it is derogatory in term like you don't enjoy strong family connection their hence you are week. it is not equal to kami kameen or inki.

[tilla_jogian]

I depends, the indic types in the lower caste are not that successful like the indic types that have to work in heera mundi.

Also indic types in paksitan getting welfare check from America to be obedient does not count for success.

Now imagine real pakhtun doing low caste job of chokidari in heera mandi, thats what you call real low. Being chokidar of kanjars in heermandi lol. Parachas should be proud of their trading indic routes, they clearly seem to be hindu khatris originally.

[tilla_jogian]

I am guessing Luffy/Smarty is getting under your skin and has shifted your whole way of thinking.

But what you say exists everywhere, People put each other down in any way possible to lift themselves up. If tilla jian thinks that by speaking panjabi, then you are panjabi, that does not extinguish the fact that the certain people are still regarded as "Kam" from others simple because of Caste. Your dream of living in a classless society is probably why you are attracted to communism but that's a myth also since classless societies don't really exist.

Even America has classes, its just that Western societies have built enough wealth to build the middle class which are the majority where in places like India and Pakistan, the lower class are the majority who hardly have enough to feed themselves.

Spending your energy to destroy Pashto and create an Urdu identity is useless and it really helps no one but probably create animosity between the people that live in KP and how dose that help your people. English is taking over the subcontinent anyways and every other language is losing clout. The best thing to spend your energy on is doing what the West has done and that is to build up a middle class. That would be the best way to detribalize the people. I myself believe that the Pashtuns that live up in the mountains of FATA and PAktia would be the last to detribalize, not by choice but because their environment prevents them from detribalizing.

Luffy/Smarty even called me a non Pashtun after I disagreed with him on a common Pashtun progenitor. Don't let these things bother you. When someone puts you down, you could put them down or brush it off. This is the internet that allows everyone to talk like a fearless warrior. Intelligence on the other hand has to be earned.

American have rich people and poor. Don't compare american system with caste system. It make you sound stupid, and yes kammi will remain kammi no matter which language he speak. But their future lies in urban Pakistan and not racist society of tribals.

Toramana have finally discovered his roots which make you little uneasy, why? Even you said these people can never be pashtuns.

[marwat]

I bet you're not even a real Marwat. You are probably a Kutani gypsy like Zarsanga.

you bet what? your mother or sister?

[marwat]

Now imagine real pakhtun doing low caste job of chokidari in heera mandi, thats what you call real low. Being chokidar of kanjars in heermandi lol. Parachas should be proud of their trading indic routes, they clearly seem to be hindu khatris originally.

you mean security guard? because pashtun don't do chokidari, they take security guard job.
heera mandi need security guard?
it is a punjabi version of honor and gherat complex

[tilla_jogian]

you mean security guard? because pashtun don't do chokidari, they take security guard job.
heera mandi need security guard?
it is a punjabi version of honor and gherat complex

chokidari ko english mein likho tabh bhi chokidar rehta hai. I like how so called real pashtuns distance themselves from pashtun kammi kameen people while call kanjar biraderi as real punjabis.

[Toramana]

I am guessing Luffy/Smarty is getting under your skin and has shifted your whole way of thinking.

But what you say exists everywhere, People put each other down in any way possible to lift themselves up. If tilla jian thinks that by speaking panjabi, then you are panjabi, that does not extinguish the fact that the certain people are still regarded as "Kam" from others simple because of Caste.

Khushal, you are not getting the real point here, which is, despite the fact that there are some people who speak the same language as you and have the same culture and are contributing to your society to the same extent as you, you are still not considering them Pashtuns. You are excluding them and pushing them into a position where they don't have any identity and are simply entity-less people.

This is not like Punjabi identity where you may be considered kammi but still are a part of the whole and are not "just the other".

And then you take advantage of them when it comes to stating your demographies (see Pashtun people page on Wikipedia where you claim Pashtuns to be 50-70 millions) to draw attention to and highlight your cultural and political importance relative to other groups around you.

Your dream of living in a classless society is probably why you are attracted to communism but that's a myth also since classless societies don't really exist.

Even America has classes, its just that Western societies have built enough wealth to build the middle class which are the majority where in places like India and Pakistan, the lower class are the majority who hardly have enough to feed themselves.

Non-existence of class-less societies doesn't mean it should not be desirable. If class-less society where all are more or less equal is good, then it must one of the high ideals that a society should pursue.

Affluence, wealth disparity is something else but making it a tool to discriminate against others is entirely a different thing.

America was once like that then they realized the injustice of it and corrected it through law, rules, and constitutional measures. It is not just the expansion of the middle class that cure it .

Spending your energy to destroy Pashto and create an Urdu identity is useless and it really helps no one but probably create animosity between the people that live in KP and how dose that help your people. English is taking over the subcontinent anyways and every other language is losing clout. The best thing to spend your energy on is doing what the West has done and that is to build up a middle class. That would be the best way to detribalize the people. I myself believe that the Pashtuns that live up in the mountains of FATA and PAktia would be the last to detribalize, not by choice but because their environment prevents them from detribalizing.

I didn't mean that. I just tried to point to the consequences if you continue pushing people against the wall. The tribalism, de-tribalism is exactly the point I wanted to draw attention to in the context of the present discussion in order to convey the point that tribalism is a sign of an ailment/problem instead of any strength. It means that you still have subsistence economy and are likely dependent on un-lawful resource-grab, corruption, or small-scale agriculture and are enable to develop an advanced society.

Remember the following order/progression of social evolution.

pre-historic societies->primitive societies(i.e., tribal societies)->feudal or agrarian societies->industrial societies->post-industrial societies.

Tribal societies are even backward than agrarian/feudal societies. Tribalism cannot go along with industrial societies.

Luffy/Smarty even called me a non Pashtun after I disagreed with him on a common Pashtun progenitor. Don't let these things bother you. When someone puts you down, you could put them down or brush it off. This is the internet that allows everyone to talk like a fearless warrior. Intelligence on the other hand has to be earned.

You are right but we should not shut eyes to the fact that these views and conditions really exist. When someone says it, he/she really means it in real life. Me and you should fight against wherever this evil props its head up.

[marwat]

chokidari ko english mein likho tabh bhi chokidar rehta hai. I like how so called real pashtuns distance themselves from pashtun kammi kameen people while call kanjar biraderi as real punjabis.

dude chokidar word is used for chaprasi. pashtun don't do chaprasitoba, they will take security guard, gate keeper job. punjabi bradari are good with chaprasitoba.
by the way you don't have any idea what nomadic punjabi adopt profession when they visit our area? do you? will take some picture soon then i will make a separate thread.

[Toramana]

On another note, I never knew that hamsaya is a derogatory term in Pakistan. I always thought it meant neighbor.

I think hamsaya is an Urdu-Hindi word. In Pashto the equivalent word is "gawandi". I never heard this word in Swat in a derogatory sense. There the word "kasabgar" is used which is not even derogatory but simply means "skilled person" or a "person of profession". Peshawar Valley, MkD are more progressive in this sense. Tribal distinctions in Malakand Division and Peshawar Valley have disappeared and feudalism is almost on the death throes.

Most likely it is used in the southern districts of KP especially in Bannu or Marwat-DI Khan area.