Helping hamsayas to return to their ethno-cultural-linguistic roots

[marwat]

the same people will declare a punjabi and indian pathan a less pashtun or simply non pashtun just because he adopted a different culture and language and or no more part of pashtun society though an ethnic pashtun.
i would say the title of pashtun can't be extended to someone who is not part of this society. to me everyone who speak the same language, adopt the same culture and contribute to the same society as me is pashtun if not ethnic Afghan. pashtun word was politicized heavily with pashtunistan movement, and it lost ethnic meaning to a greater extent,with emergence of pashtun nationalism it represents a state of mind.

[Toramana]

the same people will declare a punjabi and indian pathan a less pashtun or simply non pashtun just because he adopted a different culture and language and or no more part of pashtun society though an ethnic pashtun.
i would say the title of pashtun can't be extended to someone who is not part of this society. to me everyone who speak the same language, adopt the same culture and contribute to the same society as me is pashtun if not ethnic Afghan. pashtun word was politicized heavily with pashtunistan movement, and it lost ethnic meaning to a greater extent,with emergence of pashtun nationalism it represents a state of mind.

That is true marwat. Actually, Bacha Khan mobilized the poor classes in his political and social reformist movement. He himself was a kind of a lesser khan and his support base came from the poor classes. All the big khans and land lords were allied with British and Muslim League. Their whole animosity to Ghaffar Khan was on the point as why was he politically sensitizing the poor people although they disguised it as Muslims versus non-Muslims issue.

[tilla_jogian]

dude chokidar word is used for chaprasi. pashtun don't do chaprasitoba, they will take security guard, gate keeper job. punjabi bradari are good with chaprasitoba.
by the way you don't have any idea what nomadic punjabi adopt profession when they visit our area? do you? will take some picture soon then i will make a separate thread.

gate keeper is job for low castes, I don't know which world you are living in. I am telling you inner working of rural punjab society.

You mean changer biraderi? These are the only nomadic people in Punjab, they are socially lower caste then even chuhras and mussalis. Their lifestyle seem to be similar to real afghani pakhtuns in our area.

[tilla_jogian]

Mix,some Punjabi,some gujjar,some kashmiri, and some kohistani

punjabi is language, these people are hindko. Gujjars and other indic tribes can be said of indo-aryan or indic people. From British sources it seem ghakkhars, abbasi, gujjars etc were indic tribes in Hazara. Few thousand fake rajputs, the reason I say fake is because they were kammi. So not many rajputs which are numerous in Rawalpindi, Jhelum, Azad Kashmir. And neither jats which are numerous in Azad Kashmir and central punjab.

[marwat]

gate keeper is job for low castes, I don't know which world you are living in. I am telling you inner working of rural punjab society.

You mean changer biraderi? These are the only nomadic people in Punjab, they are socially lower caste then even chuhras and mussalis. Their lifestyle seem to be similar to real afghani pakhtuns in our area.

only nomadic! maybe but seems to me half of punjabi are changer biradari. what is the lifestyle of afghani pashtun in your areas? don't act like punjab is alien to me.
changer biradari females and children are professional beggar while their male sleeps in tents.they visit every single home every single shop, and will ask for wheat flour or money.sometime they make toys and sell them in streets, anyway their life is worst. heera mandi type job is also acceptable. Afghan muhajar are living in my areas, they do their own business.

[tilla_jogian]

only nomadic! maybe but seems to me half of punjabi are changer biradari. what is the lifestyle of afghani pashtun in your areas? don't act like punjab is alien to me.
changer biradari females and children are professional beggar while their male sleeps in tents.they visit every single home every single shop, and will ask for wheat flour or money.sometime they make toys and sell them in streets, anyway their life is worst. heera mandi type job is also acceptable. Afghan muhajar are living in my areas, they do their own business.

Afghanis life style is similar to gypsy or changher and they are hundreds of thousands here. And yes afghani muhajir women beg on streets, you can spot them becuse of taliban style burqa. Changher are also are few million and you will see them in cities begging and living like gypsy in tents. Other low castes like mussalis or chuhras are above changher because they work to earn and live. So even with in dalits there are differences.

Few afghanis are also running shops but majority of pashtuns doing business here are Pakistani ones.

[khushal]

Afghanis life style is similar to gypsy or changher and they are hundreds of thousands here. And yes afghani muhajir women beg on streets, you can spot them becuse of taliban style burqa. Changher are also are few million and you will see them in cities begging and living like gypsy in tents. Other low castes like mussalis or chuhras are above changher because they work to earn and live. So even with in dalits there are differences.

Few afghanis are also running shops but majority of pashtuns doing business here are Pakistani ones.

Majority of Pashtuns in Panjab that own businesses and land are Ghilzai.

Plus making fun of poor people is not proper behavior. YOu panjos need to learn some manners and learn how to behave. I guess when Afgans were teaching you Islam, you were sick on the day they were teaching you manners.

[khushal]

That is true marwat. Actually, Bacha Khan mobilized the poor classes in his political and social reformist movement. He himself was a kind of a lesser khan and his support base came from the poor classes. All the big khans and land lords were allied with British and Muslim League. Their whole animosity to Ghaffar Khan was on the point as why was he politically sensitizing the poor people although they disguised it as Muslims versus non-Muslims issue.

That maybe the case for Pakistan but the animosity to ghaffar khan in Afghanistan has to do with him supporting Najib and the Soviet occupation.

[Kushan Prince]

Toramana,

This is an interesting thread that you have opened and i agree on some parts and disagree on others. I also knew you were not a Paracha from the very beginning but rather a Yousafzai from swat just playing mind games with people. Its surprising how gullible people are on here to be honest. As for Hamsayas, i say let them speak the language they are most comfortable with however, these people should not be considered Pashtuns since they have no tribal affiliations with us. It seems that this Hamsaya label is similar to the Tajik one in Afghanistan which is based on linguistics and do not know exactly who they forefathers were. Well that can be arranged with a simple genetic test since science is notable for giving answers to un-answered questions. As for Akhund Khels, i don't think they are Tajiks but rather Syeds as they also claim this themselves. Even the word "Akhund" is persian title mostly given to islamic clerics or imams.

IMHO, i think english should be the literal language for both Afghanistan and Pakistan so we can put this clash of battles between different languages aside. As it seems in afg, Pashtuns are discriminated by Pak Pashtuns that they are under the influence of Persians and Afghan Pashtuns poke fun at Pak Pashtuns for being mental slaves to Punjabis who speak Urdu.

The only proper way is establishing english as the lingua franca which will get rid of this linguistic bias in both countries while native tongues can be spoken among the affiliated ethnic groups. Look at the gulf arab countries, or the European Union; all of them use English as a standard language for business and even casual communication.

Just my opinion.

[Smarty]

I think hamsaya is an Urdu-Hindi word. In Pashto the equivalent word is "gawandi". I never heard this word in Swat in a derogatory sense. There the word "kasabgar" is used which is not even derogatory but simply means "skilled person" or a "person of profession". Peshawar Valley, MkD are more progressive in this sense. Tribal distinctions in Malakand Division and Peshawar Valley have disappeared and feudalism is almost on the death throes.

Most likely it is used in the southern districts of KP especially in Bannu or Marwat-DI Khan area.

On another note, I never knew that hamsaya is a derogatory term in Pakistan. I always thought it meant neighbor.

Khushal , ask some one from FATA or Paktiya about hamsaya word in Pashto/pashtunwali, they would tell you. I thought pashtuns of every regions know about this term. Any way here is its definition,

Hamsaya - a non-Pashtun dependent group who attaches themselves to a Pashtun group, usually for protection. The Pashtun protector group is called a naik. Any attack on a hamsaya is considered an attack on the protector.

http://www.kpktribune.com/buner/index.php/en/pashtunwali

_^The site owner is from buner

[khushal]

Khushal, you are not getting the real point here, which is, despite the fact that there are some people who speak the same language as you and have the same culture and are contributing to your society to the same extent as you, you are still not considering them Pashtuns. You are excluding them and pushing them into a position where they don't have any identity and are simply entity-less people.

This is not like Punjabi identity where you may be considered kammi but still are a part of the whole and are not "just the other".

I am more interested about why people do what they do instead of what they should do. If you know the "WHY," then you can control the "WHAT."
I get it, you didn't get my point which was that PEOPLE do this, not particularly PASHTUNS. Look at America for example: Is Obama seen as an American, sure some people do but not all. Even Giuliani questioned his Americaness while others criticized Giuliani for saying such a thing:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/02/19/obama-rudy-giuliani-politico-love-of-america/23662799/

GW Bush even said that congressmen who voted against the Iraq war are not real Americans. The elder Bush called US Senator Wellstone "Chicken****" because he was so vocal against the his first Iraq war. In politics, people do whatever they can to strengthen their argument and weaken their opponents argument hence why Luffy/Smarty called me a non pashtun for disagreeing with him. If he can attack my pashtun identity and say I am not pashtun, then other members would take my comments with a grain of salt.

And then you take advantage of them when it comes to stating your demographies (see Pashtun people page on Wikipedia where you claim Pashtuns to be 50-70 millions) to draw attention to and highlight your cultural and political importance relative to other ups around you.

It depends on who you ask. Daud risked everything(which ultimately destroyed Afghanistan) for pashtunistan who you say are mostly non pashtuns, if he did not want to unite all Pashtuns, then why take such a big risk.

Non-existence of class-less societies doesn't mean it should not be desirable. If class-less society where all are more or less equal is good, then it must one of the high ideals that a society should pursue.

Affluence, wealth disparity is something else but making it a tool to discriminate against others is entirely a different thing.

America was once like that then they realized the injustice of it and corrected it through law, rules, and constitutional measures. It is not just the expansion of the middle class that cure it .

Everyone desires it, but it just does not work because people are different with different skills, different personalities, different ambitions, etc. Laws and constitution are useless without enforcement. What US policy makers realized was that building a strong middle class not only creates a strong economy but it also gives people enough economic muscle where they can protect themselves. The poor in the US are still defenseless just like anywhere else in the World. The expansion of the middle class is the main thing, the rest will naturally follow. Just look at China and India, they are expanding the middle class and freedoms are slowly creeping in. Those in the gov that oppose the freedoms will be helpless to stop it.

I didn't mean that. I just tried to point to the consequences if you continue pushing people against the wall. The tribalism, de-tribalism is exactly the point I wanted to draw attention to in the context of the present discussion in order to convey the point that tribalism is a sign of an ailment/problem instead of any strength. It means that you still have subsistence economy and are likely dependent on un-lawful resource-grab, corruption, or small-scale agriculture and are enable to develop an advanced society.

Remember the following order/progression of social evolution.

pre-historic societies->primitive societies(i.e., tribal societies)->feudal or agrarian societies->industrial societies->post-industrial societies.

Tribal societies are even backward than agrarian/feudal societies. Tribalism cannot go along with industrial societies.

You are right but we should not shut eyes to the fact that these views and conditions really exist. When someone says it, he/she really means it in real life. Me and you should fight against wherever this evil props its head up.

Its everywhere which is why Giuliani was criticized for saying those comments about Obama.

It really depends on who you ask, some people are going to consider parachas pashtun, others are not, but who cares, parachas should do what is in their best interest. Tribal societies are based on kinship, whoever is closer to you in blood are going to have stronger connections especially in the tribal belt. A Turai, even though he is Shia, is going to have my back over a Mangal in the tribal belt but in an urban setting, personality and common interest bond would be stronger.

Panjab and Tajik areas in the north are detraibalized because of their land geography which is ideal for feudalistic structures to take hold and large land owners holding power and wealth while the pashtuns live in a mountainous geographic strucure with little arable land where it is impossible for land owners to aquire much land without resistance from people.
Industrializing the economy and expanding the middle class would detribalize the society but the highlands are going to stay as they are for a long time.

[Smarty]

yes it meant neighbor, in our society those families who moves from one village to another are regarded as hamsaya too. it is derogatory in term like you don't enjoy strong family connection their hence you are week. it is not equal to kami kameen or inki.

All Kamaya (kammi) and inki (hindki ) are hamsaya but not all hamsayas are kammi......Some pashtun families and weak clans might also seek protection of stronger clans and accept status as hamsaya......hamsaya means sharing the same shadow, pashtuns and their vassals share the same shadow

[Smarty]

[MENTION=18475]marwat[/MENTION] even basic terminology of pashtunwali is mystery for these western Pashtuns of North America and Europe.

[khushal]

Khushal , ask some one from FATA or Paktiya about hamsaya word in Pashto/pashtunwali, they would tell you. I thought pashtuns of every regions know about this term. Any way here is its definition,

Hamsaya - a non-Pashtun dependent group who attaches themselves to a Pashtun group, usually for protection. The Pashtun protector group is called a naik. Any attack on a hamsaya is considered an attack on the protector.

http://www.kpktribune.com/buner/index.php/en/pashtunwali

_^The site owner is from buner

Hamsaya is a farsi word. Ham means also, too, both, or together and saya means shadow.

Where I am from the only non pashtun group that live with us are the damon but we call them khalifagon(those that serve the khalifa) whose main service is messengers but also provide other services like cutting hair, circumcision, music entertainment, etc. WE dont really use the word hamsaya in Jaji, this term was introduced to us in Kabul but it is used as neighbor. I never heard the term Gawandi until I came to Pakistan and I thought it meant neighbor so you could be right and we just didn't know exactly what it meant in the different cultures.

[tripledouble]

Hamsaya is a farsi word. Ham means also, too, both, or together and saya means shadow.

Where I am from the only non pashtun group that live with us are the damon but we call them khalifagon(those that serve the khalifa) whose main service is messengers but also provide other services like cutting hair, circumcision, music entertainment, etc. WE dont really use the word hamsaya in Jaji, this term was introduced to us in Kabul but it is used as neighbor. I never heard the term Gawandi until I came to Pakistan and I thought it meant neighbor so you could be right and we just didn't know exactly what it meant in the different cultures.

Damon are dancers right?