Split Discussion: Should Pashto Be Standardised with a Roman Script?

[DaMalakandGhar]

Shadogoverner your argument is not quite mature. Roman and Latin script have always had supremacy over Arabic after the golden Islamic period. It is hundreds of years ahead in terms of development and achievements that these two scripts have had.

One of the fact is far more Pashtuns can read English than Arabic or actually Quran. If someone wants to be a good Muslim he/she will have individual efforts. By making the Latin/Roman based script common in use does not state that Pashtuns stop reading Quran. It is the only interpretation of pan-Arabic individuals who would bring again religion in non-religious issues or the ones that totally does not relate to the religion. Think of a Muslim in Malaysia, Indonesia, central Asian countries. Do you consider them non-Muslim just because their script is different than Arabic? As i said before the present script is not Pashto language's script it was adopted in the reign of Sultan-Mahmood Ghaznawi, while some say that it was made by Bayazeed Pir Rokhan later in the 18/19 century. Long before Pashto was written in different writing system as Khroshti, aramic, greek, etc.

It doesnt matter how many Pashtun writers or academics you know or you might have relation with. You will always find persons who oppose an idea and also people who are in favor of an idea. What we are trying is discussing the possibilities and I am going to write using the roman script from now on, and if someone is stamping me with a non-muslim just because i adopt another script for my Language Pashto then he/she might be a non-muslim himself/herself. I am also going to teach anyone who is interested. One day this one person will turn up as a community. Those who dont wanna do this they have a choice of their own. No body is going to force them. We cant just follow our elders in some matters that we see we dont have any kind of positive change in it. There are many things our elders didnt want to do or didnt have access to do, they didnt use computers, electricity, other fascilities, but we have access to all this. It is not suitable to say that our elders didnt have electricity then lets turn off the lights. Our elders didnt think of a change to the script because they were born in the same house, they got elders and they died in the same house without travelling to a non-muslim country and learning of their ambitions and hard work that they are doing for their countries.

History is also a good witness of the facts that Pashtun scholars were banished from the homeland by the majority of dark minded people only because of the ideas of change and guidance towards the light of knowledge. then after years when the new generations got knowing from non-Afghan/non-Pashtuns about the banished scholars, then they traveled to their graves and dig their bodies out and brought them back to the country and were proud of bringing the dead scholars to the homeland. This was the case of Sayed Jamaludeen and many scholars before like Avicina Balkhi. Like Abdul Qadir Bedil as they know it by the name Dehlawi. As Maulana Jalaludeen Mohammad balkhi the latest case Abdul Rauf Benawa.

Dear friend take a white sheet of paper, make a line and divide the sheet in two with that line on one side write down all the positive things that can be expected and are with the Roman script on the other side of the line write down all the negative things that could happen and that makes you worried. then take the picture of that sheet or simply scan it and post it here as attachment. I am willing to answer all your worries and questions regarding this script.

Pə məxa də x̌a, Roɣ aw ǰoṛ wosə

Khangul, I agree with you totally. The whole thinking that one's "din aow Iman" somehow depends on association with the unwieldy Arabic script is plainly ridiculous. Look at Bangladesh where the national language Bangla is written in non-Arab script, yet that hasn't stopped Bangalis from being Muslims. Turkey, and many Muslim minorities in non-Muslim majority countries are other examples.

Moreover, these decisions and matters should be left to the enlightened and productive sections of the society who have an idea of how would future look like and do the required planning not parasitic and jahil mullahs and Talebs. I say one thing though, the roman script proposed should be convenient to use and available on the common English keyboard.

[Khangul]

Regarding Paxto (when i write Paxto i mean written system based on Latin) script I would like to give you the information that its alphabets which were made many years ago, has complete support from Unicode. It is only the matter of fonts, Most of the fonts support all the characters except the sound represented by x̌ an X with caron which stands for perso-arabic equivalent of ښ but again its the matter of Fonts, once proper font support for this character is made, then there is no problem at all.

[یاسمینه]

Khangul, I thought recently about the idea of changing the Pashto script. I see many cons and only one pros.

Pro - only if your idea would be used to improve existing English transcription/transliteration. English is not the best tool for Pashto transcription. Even here on this forum a lot of posts is written in English Pashto. I as a Pashto learner can seldom re-write words from English Pashto to original Pashto, especially if they are new words for me. This new transcription could be use in programming etc... and it soulds like reasonable idea, but only if the new alphabet will exist along with the present one.

Cons
1. lack of linguistic norm for Pashto language (see my other posts)
2. I can't imagine how would you implement this new alphabet. Mainly because education is still not too common phenomenon in Afghannistan, people doesn't have access to books, internet, other media. What about Koranic shools? They will not start teaching in a different language and using different script. So if kids/teens have to learn arabic script anyway, then why force them to learn the second script...
3. What about illiterate people who recognize the word Allah among thousands other words, but they don't know the meaning of pariculal letters in this word, I won't mention diacriticals...
4. For me alphabet changing is mainly a social process, not just the technical problem of finding new characters for better transcription/transliteration. Thats why in my opinion your idea requires a support not from linguists or random people but from social and religious leaders and this is where you should begin. Afghanistan is a Muslim country and its specificity has to be taken into account.
5. Personally I prefer the existing way of Pashto writting

[tor_khan]

One of the fact is far more Pashtuns can read English than Arabic or actually Quran.

Explain please.

Pə məxa də x̌a, Roɣ aw ǰoṛ wosə

I can read this, although to be honest, I voice the ə in məxa and də differently. I don't think this phonemic symbol can apply to both sounds.

This orthography is based on Roman type/International Phonemic script but many regular readers of English might struggle. They would have to learn a new script therefore, you lose the advantages that you were talking about.

[Khangul]

Pə məxa de x̌a

the above is the correct form.

[Khangul]

This is not an anti-pashtun agenda. or whatever you call it. This is the movement of the bright future of Pashtuns. Anyone who wants this nation to improve and develop as the other nations of the world are welcome to join this cause.


Pashto can be the language of science and technology only by making a fundamental change in its alphabets and that is to adopt the Latin alphabets instead of the currently Perso-arabic one.

Take a look at the attached document, 75 years ago a latin based alphabets was made for this language, but because of the narrow minded people it was never put in use except in dictionaries.

[Al Hanif]

This is not an anti-pashtun agenda. or whatever you call it. This is the movement of the bright future of Pashtuns. Anyone who wants this nation to improve and develop as the other nations of the world are welcome to join this cause.


Pashto can be the language of science and technology only by making a fundamental change in its alphabets and that is to adopt the Latin alphabets instead of the currently Perso-arabic one.

Take a look at the attached document, 75 years ago a latin based alphabets was made for this language, but because of the narrow minded people it was never put in use except in dictionaries.

Iran has the fastest growing scientific production in the whole world.

Russia uses Cyrillic.

Israel uses Hebrew.

The two latest produce more than 97% of latin-script countries users.

What now Toramana/DaMalakandGhar/PashtoDost/thegood ?

[Khangul]

Shadow you seems to be a silly man because you say elephants fly. the other thing is that you talk on behalf of who? you always say we.


I dont know why do you call yourself we. There is no we because i am not with you.


The other gentleman who claims that iran has the fastest scientific production, First show me your sources so that i can believe you. secondly why you talking about other nations what have you done so far? what are the achievements of Afghans?

The other thing i want to mention is how far is where technology and science is concerned, if you compare it with western countries.

[Khangul]

just as you said if you dont stand for something, you will fall for everything. I stand for this. I am not imposing the alphabets on anyone i simply stand for it and will use it and teach it further. If there is no website currently, it will be made, if it is a waste of time for you let it be, but its not for me. You follow your own identity and i follow my own. Afghan identity has nothing with perso-arabic script to do. Technology will not fall it should be made and simply by gaining the knowledge what the western countries have got. and this is one minor step towards the long road ahead. I am optimist and will go ahead with all my hard work and efforts and will keep only the trust to the one and only Allah. That is my ambition. You will see many websites in future as well.

Now you dont worry and do your own part of the job, and please dont get bothered if there is such a move parallel to the current script.

[DMXX]

Standardising the Pashto language is one thing, switching from the Perso-Arabic script to Latin is another.

Unification/standardisation of Pashto into one linguistic block won't necessarily erode regional dialects. Using an example I am familiar with, Modern Persian is itself used as a Standard form, yet variations still exist. When listening to music from the south, I frequently come across words, pronunciations and other linguistic nuances I'm not familiar with.

I am, however, an ardent supporter of Iranic languages (or any other non-Semitic language that places an emphasis on vowels) shifting away from Arabic-derived scripts. Semitic languages are heavily reliant on consonants and it is exceedingly difficult for a non-native speaker of Persian or Pashto to fully comprehend the written form of a consonant-only word without being instructed on the correct word choice or deducing it from the body of text.

The issue may be clouded by religious, nationalistic and sentimental tendencies, yet none take away from the reality of the matter; the Perso-Arabic script has the major shortcoming of not expressing our languages to their fullest extent and a replacement should be sought.

[R3SISTANC3]

All the people who want to change Pashto script reminds me of Indic people who use fair and lovely assuming the whiter they become the more beautiful they'll be. Is Chinese script harder than Arabic? How about Japanese script? Arabic script didn't prevent the Muslims of 13th century from becoming the hub of knowledge for the world.

All I see are confused individuals suffering from inferiority complex who would be out rightly rejected as sand negroes by the blonde hair blue eye Anglo-Saxon. They don't accept Jews with blond hair blue eyes as their own how can you sand negroes think they'll accept you? Irresponsible people looking for excuses to justify their lack of accomplishments. Blame it on the Arabs and their scripts. Forget accountability, when you can scapegoat out of your problems.

We should be proud of our heritage, the heritage of our heroes, poets, scholars, leaders, and ancestors. Self hate thought to the Africans in America reduced them to the ghetto dwellers that they are today. That is your future unless you stand tall and proud. Accept science, accept technology, but don't sell yourself short.

[یاسمینه]

^ - I agree with you when you say that Pashtuns should be proud of their language, heritage, poets, scholars, ancestors and leaders. And that Pashto script shouldn't be replaced with English (Roman).
I also like Pashto script.

I don't agree with you when you compare Pashto to Arabic language. It's true that both languages use the same script. But Arabic pronunciation is easier. Arabic language uses lots of diacritic marks which make that vocalization is unambiguous.

Look at the word: مینه. How would you pronunce it? Mina, mayna, mayena... ?Vocalization depends on meaning. And this is what makes that Pashto is a difficult language.
I will give you another example. Some time ago I asked my Pashtun friend to read for me a Pashto text. There was the noun ترنک
My friend, educated Pashtun from East Afghanistan didn't know that it was river name - Tarnak. So as first he read is as trank, then tarank...

I wrote you those examples to show you that reading and writting in Pashto is difficult even for Pashtuns.

[Al Hanif]

^ - I agree with you when you say that Pashtuns should be proud of their language, heritage, poets, scholars, ancestors and leaders. And that Pashto script shouldn't be replaced with English (Roman).
I also like Pashto script.

I don't agree with you when you compare Pashto to Arabic language. It's true that both languages use the same script. But Arabic pronunciation is easier. Arabic language uses lots of diacritic marks which make that vocalization is unambiguous.

Look at the word: مینه. How would you pronunce it? Mina, mayna, mayena... ?Vocalization depends on meaning. And this is what makes that Pashto is a difficult language.
I will give you another example. Some time ago I asked my Pashtun friend to read for me a Pashto text. There was the noun ترنک
My friend, educated Pashtun from East Afghanistan didn't know that it was river name - Tarnak. So as first he read is as trank, then tarank...

I wrote you those examples to show you that reading and writting in Pashto is difficult even for Pashtuns.

When I tried to learn how to read arabic, the only way I managed to have the correct prununciation of the words was thanks to the diacritic signs.

Indeed, it sounds hard to learn since you you have to learn by heart the pronunciation of the words.

But I don't think it's a problem for the performance or future of the kids.

My little cousin in Morocco can speak perfectly Berber and Arabic. He can read and write Berber alphabet and Arabic alphabet perfectly and he can even read and write Latin alphabet and speak some French.

[CorporalJones]

@Al Hanif are you a French-Morocan,that intends to join the Taliban?

[Old School Killiwal]

Pə məxa de x̌a

the above is the correct form.

No, it is not correct. It might be relevant to your accent but not mine and since there is no standard spoken form of Pashto, it is not an accurate transcription. You are using an IPA-Based alphabet used for writing Wakhi.

The "X" with a caron specifically implies that you are speaking the Eastern Afghan variety of Pashto, which is not spoken by me as a Paktikawal.

Most of the time, we Paktikawals do not say "pa", we say "po" or "pu" and even "fa". Similarly, we don't say "kha" with a خ, we pronounce it with a [X] which sounds more like the ح in Arabic or a "sh", depending on who we're talking to. Also, the "e" in "de", is pronounced "i" for the most part.

So we would say:

Po makha di sha/Ha.

In my romanization schemes, I would render this sentence as:

1) Po mëkha di xë.

2) Po mëxa di chë.

Also, this alphabet is of no use to the vast majority of internet-using Pashtuns who have no access to them on their English-based keyboards, this is especially since the caron-letters and the schwa appear as boxes on many screens.