Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Let me ask you a question, ozymandias.

Would you be offended if someone calls your mum a ***** and tell everyone that your mum is quite a good at satisfying many men at once?

Why ask him about his mother, what if somebody made fun of the Holocaust and made cartoons about it.

Ozzy would be the first to protest against it.
U know, this fraud, called me a bigot just because i mentioned Jews.

He is a Jew himself, Just to let u know.

[akbarkhan]

ozymandias,

1. Why is investigating or questioning the holocaust a punishable crime?
2. Why is it a punishable crime to tear Queen's picture?

Answer those and I will answer you.

[ozymandias]

You call Muslims as Terrorists over acts by a few
Yet you ignore the crimes the Israeli Khazar Jews are doing to palestinians.

I am still puzzled as what is your purpose here on this Pashtunforum?

Are trying to brainwash us not to question Jews by saying its bigotry but its okay to insult Muslims and Islam?

Is it really all that hard to understand that bigotry and free speech are not mutually exclusive?

Ozzzzy just admit you are Jewish.

Why would I lie?

[ozymandias]

Let me ask you a question, ozymandias.

Would you be offended if someone calls your mum a ***** and tell everyone that your mum is quite a good at satisfying many men at once?

Once *AGAIN* I will answer this question.

Yes. I would be offended. No, I would not resort to, nor condone terrorism in reaction to it. Instead, I would ask them to either stop making those claims, or I would take them to court over the false accusations, where they would be required to prove the accusations -- or pay large fines, (and possibly jail time) for the false claims.

Furthermore, I would *NOT* hire my mother out as a prostitute and prove their claims true -- which is what a violent response to accusations of being a violent religion is equivalent to.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE OFFENDED. I AM SAYING ACT CIVILIZED WHEN OFFENDED.

I hate resorting to all capitals like that, but too many people are ignoring that point when I repeat it. Being offended does *NOT* mean you need to act out in violence or in a rash way. In fact, acting violent and rash in response to people observing that your religion has many violent and rash people is *THE VERY PROBLEM*.

What do you *HONESTLY* think would have happened if the Islamic reaction to a few cartoons portraying Islam as a religion used to justify terrorism had been a letter writing campaign stating clearly, and concisely that you are offended by that portrayal, and that you do not wish to support an organization that publishes images of Mohammad, and thus would like to cancel your subscription, and any business you have with them?

That's right -- Islamic people would not have justified the claims, would not have generated the need to defend free speech, would not have created a huge controversy surrounding the issue (and remember, controversy sells news!), and would have actually *HURT* the company but cutting revenue.

Instead, Islam replied with terrorist acts (more news to cover! more profit!), and riots (MORE NEWS!) and protests (MORE NEWS!) and proved the idea of Islam as violent is true (justification.. and more NEWS!) and caused a much larger reaction of people defending free speech (more offense, more outrage, more terrorist acts! MORE PROFIT!).

See how that all works? It's pretty darn simple.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I AM NOT SAYING YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE OFFENDED. I AM SAYING ACT CIVILIZED WHEN OFFENDED.

Agreed.

Instead, Islam replied with terrorist acts (more news to cover! more profit!), and riots (MORE NEWS!) and protests (MORE NEWS!) and proved the idea of Islam as violent is true (justification.. and more NEWS!) and caused a much larger reaction of people defending free speech (more offense, more outrage, more terrorist acts! MORE PROFIT!).

Don't say Islam. Say Muslims.

[ozymandias]

Where is the Jewish cartoon figure on the line?

I had not noticed -- I guess the giant floating head that they use to portray Moses, or the giant hippopotomus they use for god did not fit the image.

I'm sorry I could not find a better image that included those two, as well as censoring Mohammad.

You see Ozzy, We are not so naive.We know Jews pull the strings here to stir trouble, just like you, spending your whole day insulting muslims and islam and stiring a debate up on how bad muslims are, but never speak against or speak about the Jewish faith or their talmud.

Sigh. Go start your bigotry thread and I might chime in. Until then, or until it is appropriate in another thread, I am *NOT* going to drag a minority into the discussion just to be a bigot and insult them for no reason.

You are a Hipocrite.

Please go ahead and try to prove this. I am nothing if not consistent, open and honest.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Again why do you call thsoe who oppose Judaism as Bigots

When infact you are very opposed to Islam and Muslims.

You speak of people to be civilised, but what about your Western nations on a friday night???? what about the war crimes your western countries have done on Afghans and Iraqis????.

[ozymandias]

Why ask him about his mother, what if somebody made fun of the Holocaust and made cartoons about it.

They asked about my mother, as that would offend me, and they were trying to make a point by bring a personal connection to the issue.

Why would I be offended by the Holocaust cartoons? I see those every day, and since they have no personal imact to me, I don't even find them all that offensive.

Ozzy would be the first to protest against it.

Clearly you have not read a single thing I have posted then.

U know, this fraud, called me a bigot just because i mentioned Jews.

Please do not lie. I called you a bigot due to your obsession with drawing the Jews into every discussion just so that you may insult them in an additional conversation that has no bearing on them, or reason to be discussing them.

He is a Jew himself, Just to let u know.

Funny. I would think I would know if I were Jewish or not..

[ozymandias]

ozymandias,

1. Why is investigating or questioning the holocaust a punishable crime?

From what I can tell, in the *VERY* few countries this is actually illegal in, it has to do with national shame, and an effort to repress a terrible part of their history, and avoid allowing people to keep old wounds open.

It is very interesting to note that the countries with these laws are all places that suffered int hat war the worst.

It is also important to note that investigating, nor questioning is not illegal in *ANY* of those countries -- it is illegal to claim they never happened -- and try to teach these claims, as well as it is illegal to express support for the crimes against humanity -- not quite the same as what you asked.

Furthermore, I am against these laws, as they violate free speech.

1. Why is it a punishable crime to tear Queen's picture?

I was not aware that it was. The closest I was able to find in a google search was a (now repealed law) that made it illegal to deface British coins in 1936 -- which had a picture of the queen on them. A quick google search shows that it is commonly misunderstood that it was illegal due to the defacing the queen, but in reality it was illegal to deface the property of the government -- which all money technically is. This law was repealed.

If I found the wrong law, please correct me -- I am not up-to-date with obscure forgein laws that are not enforced -- it's only the archaic laws that are enforced that make the news -- like imprisoning someone for eating.

Once again, personally, I feel that this violates free speech, but under the argument that the coin is the property of the government, I would have to allow it, the same as I would say that my destroying your property is not covered by free speech.

Answer those and I will answer you.

I was not aware I asked you anything.

[ozymandias]

Again why do you call thsoe who oppose Judaism as Bigots

Again, I don't. I call those that attempt to use every excuse, no matter how flimsy, to insult a group they do not like bigots.

When infact you are very opposed to Islam and Muslims.

First of all, I am not opposed to all of Islam, or all Muslims.

Second of all, I am here to discuss these issues. I am not exclusively insulting a group I do not like. I am not going to a forum populated by Jewish people, joining a discussion on the "Jewish Reaction to Orthodox Communities Passing Laws Based on Orthodoxy" and start insulting Islam. It would not be appropriate, it would not benefit the discussion, and it would be bigoted for no reason.

You speak of people to be civilised, but what about your Western nations on a friday night????

Restaurants are uncivilized? Paying for goods and services is uncivilized? Movies? Social outings? I'm not sure what part of 'Friday nights' you assume are uncivilized.

what about the war crimes your western countries have done on Afghans and Iraqis????.

What 'war crimes' have the *COUNTRIES* done? or is this a case of you taking the criminal acts of citizens of western nations and blaming the entire country for those criminal acts?

[ozymandias]

I agree with you.

Thank you. I think it is very clear, and it needs to be repeated, as I am asked that question, or people accuse me of saying the opposite about every other page.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

So you say a terrible history of shame?

So why isnt insulting Muslims in Iraq banned, since America and its western allies have done alot of shame there.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I personally think that we have all misunderstood ozymandias. I think he is saying that we should not act like uncivilized people when we are poked at.

If this is what he is trying to convey, then I agree with him. The Prophet (saw) and the early companions went through much worst and they made sure to hold on to civility and they never resulted to violence.

When they migrated to Medina and when the Meccans came to obliterate them there, that is when a defensive jihad was permitted.

Notice that a defensive Jihad was not permitted in Mecca in the first 13 years of the call.

I think that we should not take offense to what ozymandias is saying, I think we should all be more practicing Muslims. When practicing Islam properly we would avoid turning a mole into a mountain.

When people poke fun at our Prophet (saw) it does not mean that it has affected or blemished his beautiful character. No one can take that away from him. However, when we as Muslims act like chickens without our heads, then this does look like it is a real reflection of his character.

Hence, as I have always been saying, we Muslims have given Islam a bad name more than any outsider.

[ozymandias]

So you say a terrible history of shame?

So why isnt insulting Muslims in Iraq banned, since America and its western allies have done alot of shame there.

First of all, I stated that I do not support these laws -- so why are you asking me to defend them?

Secondly. you once again make a false comparison. *Germany* has laws that prevent people from falsely educating others over the role *GERMANY* had in the Holocaust. *GERMANY* passed a law that makes it illegal to belittle the crimes against humanity that *GERMANY* committed during the war. *GERMANY* made the decision that they need to stamp out all remnants of Nazism, and root out all supporters of a terrible black mark on the *GERMAN SOCIETY*.

This is *NOTHING* like *IRAQ* passing laws based on the actions of *AMERICANS*. The actions of Americans in Iraq are not even comparable to the horrors that the German people did during the Holocaust, either. It's sad that you cannot see this.

Thirdly, these are laws passed by the population of the country to restrict their own actions. Looking into these issues, it is *very* rare for foreigners to be charged -- and the few cases I could find, the 'foreigners' were still members of the EU. While I do not support these laws, I *DO* support the right of people to decide what rules they wish to live in, and how they wish to atone for their acts.

In Germany, in particular, there is a strong cultural wish to divorce themselves from the bigots of the past, and step forward into a modern society with no sugar coating of their crimes. Bigots on the street corner denying the Holocaust and teaching factually false things in order to justify the crimes against humanity does not help that society move forward.

Once again, I do not support these laws, and they *ARE* a problem -- but so is you making false comparisons and deliberately blurring the issues. I am no longer sure if you are intentionally making these trivial mistakes, if your bigotry and hate clouds your mind, or if you are just a dumbass trying to troll these forums.

[ozymandias]

I personally think that we have all misunderstood ozymandias. I think he is saying that we should not act like uncivilized people when we are poked at.

BINGO!

If this is what he is trying to convey, then I agree with him. The Prophet (saw) and the early companions went through much worst and they made sure to hold on to civility and they never resulted to violence.

BINGO!

When they migrated to Medina and when the Meccans came to obliterate them there, that is when a defensive jihad was permitted.

Notice that a defensive Jihad was not permitted in Mecca in the first 13 years of the call.

BINGO!

I think that we should not take offense to what ozymandias is saying, I think we should all be more practicing Muslims. When practicing Islam properly we would avoid turning a mole into a mountain.

BINGO!

When people poke fun at our Prophet (saw) it does not mean that it has affected or blemished his beautiful character. No one can take that away from him. However, when we as Muslims act like chickens without our heads, then this does look like it is a real reflection of his character.

BINGO BINGO BINGO!

The only ones that have done any lasting harm to the image and history of Mohammad are those that prove the accusations against him are true. False accusations only harm the accuser. Turning false accusations into true accusations hurts everyone.

Hence, as I have always been saying, we Muslims have given Islam a bad name more than any outsider.

Exactly. I think we finally are on the same page. I am truly sorry that my linguistic abilities made it so hard for this message to be shared between us.

How can it be more disrespectful to the memory of Mohammad to accuse his followers of being violent, than it is to be a violent follower of Mohammad?

I think now that we are beginning to understand each other, we can truly start to teach each other -- and learn from each other.