Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[ozymandias]

ozy, who are you trying to kid?

Let us start from a blank sheet of paper, perhaps we have both misunderstood each other.

We are going to talk about this topic: The United Nations Charter of Human Rights.

Are you saying that Islam stands against everything that is in charter?

All of the rights? No. Some of the rights? Yes. All of Islam? No. Some of Islam? Yes.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias and team,

I think it would be a bit more proper and uniformed if you guys can create a separate thread based on what you guys want to discuss. There are way too many topics being discussed here in this thread.

Gentlemen, You may choose a topic you wish to discuss or you may continue discussing the present one which is solely the Islamic reaction to radical Muslims.

Sorry -- I tried to keep things on topic, but it's often hard :-(

Sorry I replied to some of the other posts before seeing this one.

[ozymandias]

Again with the excuses. Your excuse is that you dont want to discuss the Jewish faith on the grounds that Islam and Christianity are the prodominate faiths on this forum.

No, Islam is the predominate faith on this forum, and Christianity is the predominant faith on this planet.

I see no need to drag in a religion that represents less than one quarter of one percent when the other two groups constitute half the world -- and when you add in non-theists, the three groups are 75% of the planet.

There are no christians on this forum?

I would not know, nor would I claim that.

Why dont you open up a new thread, and we will discuss judaism and the talmud.

Feel free to start a new thread, since *YOU* are the one that appears to be obsessed with the Jewish faith.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias,

Hasnt our reaction been pretty good? When 9/11 occured we set up foundations to support the victims, when london bombings happened we did the same.



I do agree with most of what you say though.

Many did the right thing, you are right -- and it is not their reaction I was interested in -- I can understand and relate to that reaction.

To be honest, I think I understand the reaction much better now than I did before, and that is thanks to this thread. It was the reaction of those that did nothing -- or worse yet, supported terrorism, that I was interested in.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

You notice how it has never come up? Yeah -- that's why I have not discussed it. To bring it up out of the blue just to start bashing is inappropriate and would not add to the conversation.



I speak mostly of these two groups for the reasons already stated. I might remind you that while Islam and Christianity comprise roughly 55% of the planet, Judaism is only 0.22%.



Why not accuse me of being Hindu? They make up 14% of the world, and I have not said *ANYTHING* about the,. What about the indigenous religions of African and Americans? They are 6%. Traditional Chinese? 6% Buddhist? 6%.

I suspect you are just an ignorant bigot looking for an excuse to bad mouth an ethnic or religious group not needed in the conversation.



There is a difference between being sensitive and being appropriate.

Just admit that you wont talk against Judaism but feel very comfortable speaking about Islam and Christianity.

Its very simple

There is no need to write me these lame excuses

Jews of todays backgrounds are not even real jews by blood, so dont feel afraid of being labelled a racist.

I understand you may not have the balls or gutts to insult a Jew maybe you are one but tell me, why are you so nervous to speak against them?

So in your view, if your an Minority relgion, you shouldnt be questioned as you do with Muslims and Christians?

If you didnt know, There are Many jews in nearly every powerful government on this Planet, Iam sure they have a big say on what goes on.

Be a man, speak about Judaism and the Talmud. We all want to hear your views on it.

[ozymandias]

Just admit that you wont talk against Judaism but feel very comfortable speaking about Islam and Christianity.

Saying that would be a lie. I am willing to speak negatively about any and all religions when appropriate -- however this is not an appropriate time or place to attack Judaism simply because you want to see me do it.

Its very simple

There is no need to write me these lame excuses

Jews of todays backgrounds are not even real jews by blood, so dont feel afraid of being labelled a racist.

It would still be bigotry to randomly drag an additional religion into the discussion soley to insult them, when they are not relevant.

I understand you may not have the balls or gutts to insult a Jew maybe you are one but tell me, why are you so nervous to speak against them?

I understand that you are an absurd bigot and will only feel better if you feel that everyone is an ignorant bigot like yourself.

I am not nervous to speak about them, I simply have no need to do so. I have not seen you insult homosexual pedophiles. Maybe you are one. Why are you so nervous to speak out against them?

So in your view, if your an Minority relgion, you shouldnt be questioned as you do with Muslims and Christians?

No. I neither support that, nor stated that. I simply stated that they are *SUCH* a minority that they are not really relevant to the current discussion, and bringing them into the discussion ads absolutely nothing of value to the conversation.

Islam and Christianity, on the other hand, are both very popular religions, with well known, and understood beliefs, many of which are fairly close to each other, which makes them both appropriate to discuss, particularly with the recent discussion of morals and ethics, especially regarding judgment and eternal reward or punishment, as Judaism is vastly different than either Islam or Christianity in how they view the afterlife. While there is a concept of reward or punishment, they do not subscribe to the the heaven/hell paradigm. Drawing them into a discussion of theistic and non-theistic moral systems needlessly complicates the discussion and adds little or no value to the discussion.

If you didnt know, There are Many jews in nearly every powerful government on this Planet, Iam sure they have a big say on what goes on.

.... so? If you want to discuss that, start a new thread. This has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with the Islamic Reaction to Islamic Racidals. If you can somehow explain how the diversity of governments that includes Jews is relevant, we can discuss it here.

As it is, especially in light of your existing bigotry and pushing to see other people randomly insult a religious and ethnic group you do not like, this just stinks of more ignorant bigotry and consperacy theories.

Be a man, speak about Judaism and the Talmud. We all want to hear your views on it.

Be a man, and stay on topic in this thread, and if you want to discuss another topic, start another thread.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Saying that would be a lie. I am willing to speak negatively about any and all religions when appropriate -- however this is not an appropriate time or place to attack Judaism simply because you want to see me do it.



It would still be bigotry to randomly drag an additional religion into the discussion soley to insult them, when they are not relevant.



I understand that you are an absurd bigot and will only feel better if you feel that everyone is an ignorant bigot like yourself.

I am not nervous to speak about them, I simply have no need to do so. I have not seen you insult homosexual pedophiles. Maybe you are one. Why are you so nervous to speak out against them?



No. I neither support that, nor stated that. I simply stated that they are *SUCH* a minority that they are not really relevant to the current discussion, and bringing them into the discussion ads absolutely nothing of value to the conversation.

Islam and Christianity, on the other hand, are both very popular religions, with well known, and understood beliefs, many of which are fairly close to each other, which makes them both appropriate to discuss, particularly with the recent discussion of morals and ethics, especially regarding judgment and eternal reward or punishment, as Judaism is vastly different than either Islam or Christianity in how they view the afterlife. While there is a concept of reward or punishment, they do not subscribe to the the heaven/hell paradigm. Drawing them into a discussion of theistic and non-theistic moral systems needlessly complicates the discussion and adds little or no value to the discussion.



.... so? If you want to discuss that, start a new thread. This has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with the Islamic Reaction to Islamic Racidals. If you can somehow explain how the diversity of governments that includes Jews is relevant, we can discuss it here.

As it is, especially in light of your existing bigotry and pushing to see other people randomly insult a religious and ethnic group you do not like, this just stinks of more ignorant bigotry and consperacy theories.



Be a man, and stay on topic in this thread, and if you want to discuss another topic, start another thread.

Whatever.

Trying to act smart to avoid criticism of Judaism. May i ask, how does your views benefit Pashtuns?

Ignorant Bigotry, every comment you make you one way or another insult Islam and Christainity and then you use the race card to avoid speaking against Jews who are not even a race.

Your a fake. sorry to say

[ozymandias]

Whatever.

Trying to act smart to avoid criticism of Judaism. May i ask, how does your views benefit Pashtuns?

Open discourse and discussion with other people and other viewpoints brings everyone to a better place in the world.

Ignorant Bigotry, every comment you make you one way or another insult Islam and Christainity

Once again, you missed the part where I pointed out that those comments directly lent something to the discussion -- I was not insulting to simply be insulting, and I did not pick those religious groups because I do not like them -- I picked them because they both lend something to the discussion and are relevant.

It's only ignorant bigotry with you start insulting a group *FOR THE SAKE OF INSULTING THE GROUP*.

Is that really all that hard to understand?

and then you use the race card

Please stop lying. When did I 'play the race card'?

to avoid speaking against Jews who are not even a race.

Funny you should mention that -- as I have been harping on that for quite some time -- they are both an ethnicity and a religion, and not just a race.This is no reason to avoid discussing them, however.

The reasons to avoid discussing them is that they *ARE NOT RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION*.

[/quote]

Your a fake. sorry to say[/QUOTE]

Feel free to lie, and accuse me of anything you want. I noticed that once again you declined to comment on homosexual pedophiles -- just reminding you about this -- as by your logic, this must make you a homosexual pedophile. See how silly that is?

[ozymandias]

But if we believe that diety to be all knowledgeable and just and would only punish those who do wrong to others. Then the good people who do no wrong to others don't need to "fear" this diety rather they should be thankful that justice will be served by a diety who is knowledgeable and fears no one, so it will not make a wrong decision. The only people who need to fear this merciful diety are the ones who have something to hide and do wrong.

Right -- and that is why altruism is impossible for you. You do right because you will be rewarded, or because doing wrong would bring punishment.

Take the example of Hitler, he ordered killing of millions but he wasn't even brought to justice. He commited suicide and died painlessly. How is that fair. Is that all the punishment he deserves for what he has done?

Why do you feel life should be fair? Furthermore, how does this imply a deity?

That's why in Islam there is a hell and a heaven. True justice is only served by the only who is truly just and the final authority on all things.
About the proving part. Well In Islam, Allah is formless, infinite, has no begining or end, no eye can see him nor any mind can comprehend him. How can you prove or disprove such a diety?

It's not a claim that needs to be disproven. Extraordinary claims need to be proven, not disproven.

You can't prove or disprove him scientifically because he is not physical. Science can not be used for such a deity.

But the claims about that deity, or the 'need' for that deity can be proven or disproven.

I am not really saying that people can vote for what is moral and what is not. Rather there are powerful people within people who decide what is moral and what is not. They control the and brainwash the masses through media, the education system and manipulating knowledge. Many atheists especially the ones from thrid world countries don't even know why they don't believe in God. Sometimes they just do it to fit in with the crowd and it is supposedly a cool thing to be atheist nowadays. The same can be said for theists who blindly believe. But I think the case for theists is a little stronger when the see the creation around us to believe in higher authority.

And I think the opposite. When I look around, I see the results of natural laws, not supernatural actions, nor any reason to believe in a supernatural being.

How can athiest morals be devorced from personal opinions and desires when they don't accept a higher authority than themselves?

Who said they don't accept a higher authority? Again, you are jumping to conclusions here.

They see their reasoning and logic as their guiding light. While a muslim submitts his will to God and follows the path of the all knowledgeable and just. So the atheists actually follow their own whims and desires and as we know a man can rarely be truly just if it involves his own intrests.

That's what civilization and a fair justice system are for. You come to these agreements, and you have someone that can keep everyone to them. This is part of why the terrorists are so uncivilized. They think that their own sense of religious outrage justifies their actions -- and then they use their religion to prop up their moral stance.

There is a nice verse in the Quran for such people who follow their reasoning and desires.

" Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire?" (45:23)

[AfghanSoulja]

There are radicals in every religion, every group.. People want reaction from Muslims about the radicals but they don't have the guts to ask the Vatican why their preists keep molesting lil kids.. That's not wrong cuz that has nothing todo with Islam

Hypocrites

[ozymandias]

There are radicals in every religion, every group.. People want reaction from Muslims about the radicals but they don't have the guts to ask the Vatican why their preists keep molesting lil kids.. That's not wrong cuz that has nothing todo with Islam

Hypocrites

I'm sorry, but do you ignore international news? There is a campaign to *ARREST* the pope during his next visit to the UK for aiding and abetting, as well as covering up these crimes.

You are also confusing the issue, either deliberately or accidentally. Unlike the Islamic terrorists, who are doing horrible acts of terrorism because they believe their god requires and encourages them and some sicko pedophile priests who are doing terrible things *IN SPITE* of what their religion teaches. Not a single Catholic priest has stated that it is part of his religion when confronted -- and if they did, the Catholic community would call them out on it.

Furthermore, while the Catholic Clergy has been doing some terrible things, and hiding terrible things, none of the lay-people are defending them, or even ignoring the issue by saying 'well they must not be Catholics, then' -- as people are doing for Islam. Rather than address the problem, many here are saying that they must not be Muslims if they terrorize.

I'm not even sure why you think these two acts of horror are even comparable. Other than both being crimes that deserve life-long punishment and imprisonment, they have nothing in common.

[AfghanSoulja]

That's good then come back when the pope is arrested

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias,

What is a radical Muslim?

When this discussion started, I would have stated that they are the religious extremists of Islam that believe something outside the mainstream, core beliefs, and are often 'hardcore' Muslims. Typically people that use their religion to justify unjustifiable actions such as terrorism, or infringement of basic human rights in the name of their religion.

After this thread? I would use that same definition and remove the 'outside the mainstream' portion. It has been made clear that they are not as far outside the mainstream as I would have liked.

[Palwasha]

Wow the thread's still going on..

When you attack black people, they call it racism. When you attack Jewish people, they call it anti-semetism. When you attack women, they call it sexism. When you attack homosexuality, they call it intolerance. When you attack your country, they call it treason. When you attack a religious sect, they call it hate speech. But when you attack the Prophet peace be upon him, they want to call it freedom of speech!

[Max]

Ozy these are difficult times for muslims man, basically outsider is considered a threat and therefore you will always find people on the defensive

Please try to understand that islam "is" perfect, its just that muslims are not

thats by malcolm-x but it conveys more truth than you can find in these 63 pages..We all have individual views, and no one view is absolutely right..What Islam means to you, it all depends on how you will approach it.

All these people your having discussions with arent prophets, nor are they scholars nor can me or they with all our knowledge convey to you the perfect meaning of islamic ideals..We are limited by our thinking power and therefore it is upto you to read Quran to read tafseer, with an open heart not with a heart that is absolutely cynical.

Try to have sympathy for the suffering of Muslims and when you actually will be able to feel a bit of their pain you will understand the anger, you will understand that they didnt choose to be this way. Life is harsh my friend try not to defend and try not to accuse, rather try and put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian Iraqi or an Afghan..Put yourself in the shoes of an ordinary muslim in these countries and imagine what life must be like him

Once your able to have that connection, it might help you understand everything better.

thanks