Islams achilles tendon - Takfir.

[Dust]

What is the logic behind you can come in but you can't leave. Is God that illogical?

Human beings have more logic than God, if things are the way Shimla explains them to be.

A mouse trap.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Wrayun, some of us are of the opinion that the Truth doesn't needed to be defended. Not with words, not the least with violence.

Hence, the Truth requires no compulsion.

thats a fair argument. But if someone rejects truth and goes about spreading falsehood and instigating hostility towards muslims, should we allow one to do so?

See, it is not about defending the truth. Because obvioulsy as allah said in the quran, he will guard over the quran.

But when people deliberately promote hostility and spread falsehood, then they need to be executed. Because the create more harm for the society than good.

[شمله ور خراساني]

What is the logic behind you can come in but you can't leave. Is God that illogical?

Human beings have more logic than God, if things are the way Shimla explains them to be.

A mouse trap.

who told you that you have a logic that can decide what is reasonable what god does and what not? You are a human being and therefore limited by your faculties. However, god is the almighty. And what he decides, is beyond you.

And therefore, saying that god is logical or illogical is nonsense.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Don't worry Dust, Sangar, Shimla, left Islam himself. But for some odd reason the law of apostasy did not apply to him. He left and came back. These are the hypocrites you will come across in you life. I am pretty you have seen a lot of non-religious bigoted Atheist in your life.

This Sangar guy is not worth you time. He does not know the Quran, not at all. If you were to take the internet away from him he would not know how to use the Quran.

[Wrayun]

Wrayun, some of us are of the opinion that the Truth doesn't needed to be defended. Not with words, not the least with violence.

Hence, the Truth requires no compulsion.

But it's not really about defending the truth, it's about defending your interests. For example, modern day civilized nations will eliminate entire villages if it is in their interests. Anyone that undermines global political giants are under the raider and in constant fear of their lives. How is any of that different?

You can argue that those who no longer believe in God, shouldn't be killed for that. I agree. But people like Wafa Sultan, Salman Rushdie, Ibn Sina, that Hamas leader son....which ideology or power will excuse such people?

[شمله ور خراساني]

I am pretty

self advertisement, huh? LOL

[Baygham]

Pie wrora, wrayun, haneef,

What is your solution for pashtoons, when some are stuck to the idea of issuing takfir and killing pashtoons under it and those scholars who promote this. What should the pashtoons as a qaam do about that. What would you do if you are the one to be killed, for it is obvious each one of you has been labelled as having commited that by the taliban representative here, that shumla riawand.

[Dust]

who told you that you have a logic that can decide what is reasonable what god does and what not? You are a human being and therefore limited by your faculties. However, god is the almighty. And what he decides, is beyond you.

And therefore, saying that god is logical or illogical is nonsense.

Exactly, it is beyond logic that Hindus worship multiple Gods. You just have to accept it and don't question it.

[Wrayun]

What is the logic behind you can come in but you can't leave. Is God that illogical?

Human beings have more logic than God, if things are the way Shimla explains them to be.

A mouse trap.

I agree with your notion, thankfully there is nothing of that sort in the Quran that preaches that those who have left Islam because they no longer believe should be killed. I can take liberty in that.

But those who leave Islam, and work to undermine it, well then they are asking for it. Whether that is fair or unfair, I am not the judge. Though its reasonable to assume that such people will not be safe in Muslim states, since the state has to protect it's interest. The majority will have too. The body has to work against rogue cells before the cancer spreads. The same way, those who oppose Islam, rightfully can do the same. Stop Islam midst them before it spreads. That is what I see happening in Europe today.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Dust, you are wasting your time on him. He does not comprehend logic. His logic is that he can leave Islam but no one else can.

[Baygham]

But it's not really about defending the truth, it's about defending your interests. For example, modern day civilized nations will eliminate entire villages if it is in their interests. Anyone that undermines global political giants are under the raider and in constant fear of their lives. How is any of that different?

You can argue that those who no longer believe in God, shouldn't be killed for that. I agree. But people like Wafa Sultan, Salman Rushdie, Ibn Sina, that Hamas leader son....which ideology or power will excuse such people?

Peera who is stopping you from killing, go kill who ever you wish, he is only saying dont bring Allah into it. If you are killing for your interest than say so, why this deceit of laballing it as an act for Allah. this hurts the pashtoons/muslims and is not in our long term interests in this world.

[Wrayun]

Peera who is stopping you from killing, go kill who ever you wish, he is only saying dont bring Allah into it. If you are killing for your interest than say so, why this deceit of laballing it as an act for Allah. this hurts the pashtoons/muslims and is not in our long term interests in this world.

lulz...no need to get personal. I'm not killing or wishing to kill anyone. In fact I'll be killed midst some Muslims before you or any other apostate.

Maybe I am off topic here since your subject matter was completely different. I only raised the issue here that not all apostates are innocent little bunnies at the park.

[Baygham]

Pie wrora, wrayun, haneef,

What is your solution for pashtoons, when some are stuck to the idea of issuing takfir and killing pashtoons under it and those scholars who promote this. What should the pashtoons as a qaam do about that. What would you do if you are the one to be killed, for it is obvious each one of you has been labelled as having commited that by the taliban representative here, that shumla riawand.

lulz...no need to get personal. I'm not killing or wishing to kill anyone. In fact I'll be killed midst some Muslims before you or any other apostate.

Maybe I am off topic here since your subject matter was completely different. I only raised the issue here that not all apostates are innocent little bunnies at the park.

So what is your solution.

[3.14159265...]

But it's not really about defending the truth, it's about defending your interests. For example, modern day civilized nations will eliminate entire villages if it is in their interests. Anyone that undermines global political giants are under the raider and in constant fear of their lives. How is any of that different?

You can argue that those who no longer believe in God, shouldn't be killed for that. I agree. But people like Wafa Sultan, Salman Rushdie, Ibn Sina, that Hamas leader son....which ideology or power will excuse such people?

Wrayun, you are mixing up religion and politics. Politics and expansionism are not what God is about in my opinion.

By the way I am an Atheist with weird spiritual beliefs as described in the "Zen, Medidtation ..." thread.

Shamla, I don't think violence is good for anything. Period.

[Wrayun]

So what is your solution.

I have explained this issue in another thread.

These takfiri groups are not in the majority and are heavily politicized entities. Their leaders are self-proclaimed saviors with little to no credentials from authentic Islamic institutions. These groups never came into power through the masses rather by the support of external forces and as proxies of various governments to further their global agendas. The indoctrination that takes place is also made possible by such governments. Billions are and were spent in empowering them.

Now when Frankenstein is out of control, the tool that was used to create the monster is on trial rather the engineers behind it.

What is the solution? The first step is peace, stability and security. Once that is achieved, sovereignty established, the ruling government (group or power) must institutionalize many things and reduce the limit of average mullahs from issuing fatwas or decrees. Right now every village mullah is a scholar, that is a bad mixture. Anyone can become a scholar by growing a beard and turning the tasbee. That is only possible without law, and a stable government. Saudi Arabia and Iran are good examples when it comes to such issues. For example, no scholar dares issue fatwas that would undermine the state, and those that do are put in their place. That includes declaring groups heretics and encouraging people to take matters in their own hands. There is a process for all these things, and any ruling government can't afford vigilantism since it will undermine its rule of law.

What would you do if you are the one to be killed, for it is obvious each one of you has been labelled as having commited that by the taliban representative here, that shumla riawand.

I don't think Shamla represents Taliban, and I also know that his tit for tat provocative aggression is only possible when stimulated. You can try reasoning (and I mean reasoning, not mocking or provoking - haha you halva khor, haha you beardie pervert, haha bedioun prophet lover, haha sky-god allah worshiper, haha blind eye mullah omar punjabi tool, haha stupid mullah daal khor), if that fails then oh well......common sense...it's either you or him then.