Islams achilles tendon - Takfir.

[Baygham]

Takfir throughout so called Muslim history has always been the responsibility of state not of some hyper excited ,egocentric,sex maniac, politically biased , pshychos called Ulema and even in that case has been controversial and debatable [due to absence of Ijma].

It is a bitter reality that naive people like Maiwand and other Mujahideen on PF would be considered as rag tag even by the Ulema [who are just some arrogant, sex maniac clones] of the sacred cities of Makkah and Medina looking down upon them as some begging azam guys while our naive and sincere brothers who have taken the responsiblity of imposing their version of religion [Calipahte] on the whole damn world.

Da sada dost na okhyar dukhman khe wee.

so what do u recommend. How should pashtoon address this nonsence.

[3.14159265...]

"The punishment for apostasy is death". This is not something Islam says.

Provide a verse in the Quran that says otherwise and I'll agree with you.

This is a sensational issue and should be ignored.

[Maiwand]

I advice all of you to sincerely read the Quran with an open mind. It seems that you guys really don't know what you are talking about. You haven't read or did not understand the Quran and the seerah of the prophet. You have a very superficial knowledge of Islam.

[Maiwand]

I also advice you all to listen to this lecture: "Understanding the Quran".

This is really for your own benefit and salvation, because you are spreading the wrong knowledge and are misleading people, without you realising it. It is indeed a great sin to spread ignorance among people.

[Baygham]

I also advice you all to listen to this lecture: "Understanding the Quran".

This is really for your own benefit and salvation, because you are spreading the wrong knowledge and are misleading people, without you realising it. It is indeed a great sin to spread ignorance among people.

This thread is not about understanding quran, it is started to address the issue of takfir and those that use takfir, what should pashtoons do about it. Start another thread for your preaching.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Takfeer is obligatory upon a muslim when it is apparent and crystal clear.

[Saif ul Haq]

In Islamic law, takfir or takfeer (تكفير) refers to apostasy in Islam, or the practice of declaring oneself an unbeliever or kafir (pl. kuffār), previously considered Muslim. The act which precipitates takfir is termed the mukaffir. (wikipedia)

Actually you're wrong and that's not what Takfeer means

Takfeer literally means atonement, expiation or penance. And Islaamically, it means to identify an individual with Kufr, NOT calling them a Kaafir

And there's a major difference between a person seeing another as a Kaafir and they label them with Kufr, from a person who is totally innocent (Muslim) and has no signs of Kufr in them. Major difference.

By definition you're already wrong, of course this will affect the rest of your awry post and by default we can already conclude you will come to a mistaken belief

In the presence of numerous sects in Islam, like in any religion, the battle ground between these sects, for the souls of the faithful is at times quite tense. While most other religions have stopped resorting to death and destruction of the other sect of the same religion in the 21st century and even allow for peacefull coexistence with the apostate, such is not the case with Muslims.

The author lives in a fairy tale invented by his/her own mind. Being in the 21st century by no means introduces a new way of life, it's actually the opposite, it introduces a unreachable form of life that only exists in a persons confused state. Life by nature has ups and downs and one set of people opposing another. This is reasonable and logical, only problem lies is how they oppose each other.

The reasons for this may be multiple. Overall most muslim sects believe in some form of Takfir. The subsequent punishment, though very harsh, by contemprary standards in the world, has much precedent in Sunnah (Mohammadan actions) and thus the appeal to them is quite easy.

By definition, every human being believes in takfeer, this is not exclusive to Muslim sects

And you spelled 'contemporary' wrong

In the presense of such allowance, takfir and its associated misdemenours Bidah'th and other charges of collusion with infedils citing quranic verses of not befriending non-muslims make for ideal atmosphere for political use of these resources.

Coming from a person who doesn't know the meaning of Takfeer?

*presence, *misdemeanors, *infidels

These intimidatory tactics allow for the powerful to become more powerful and even momentary shifts in power can be devastating. A one day rule of opposing army of a town where the inhabitants have been deamed 'murtads' can have devastating consequences with complete annihilation of a family, town or even large communities.

In the 21st century in Pakhtun land for the pashtoons it is posing the single most major obstacle in the way of progress, peace, rule of law and stability.

I would like my brothers and sisters on this site to discuss how we can counter this menace in our society. I will post my thoughts as we go along.

The major obstacle to progress, peace, rule of law and stability are actually people like you, by using 21st century you seem to imply a form of accomplishments are needed?

You're simply giving a hollow speech without any substance or solution. What existing principles, in history or today, can solve this problem? What's the ideal example of how a society should be?

Many people have issues yet give absolutely not solution

[Baygham]

Takfeer is obligatory upon a muslim when it is apparent and crystal clear.

I propose that it should be obligatory on a pashtoon to take badal from those that spread hatred that leads to the death of a fellow pashtoon for his views.
Takfir is on top of this list.

Anyone using takfir as the basis of a pashtoon death should be killed and the group sanctioned by pashtoons in pashtoon land.

Otherwise we will all kill each other.

[Baygham]

No where in the Quran does it say that. Its a man made law used to justify the means when necessary.

Jasmine khore I did not say it was in Quran. I asked a question regarding those that resort to it (takfir) and cause pashtoon suffering through it, how should the pashtoons deal with it, please give your opinion on that.

[Saif ul Haq]

And there's a major difference between a person seeing another as a Kaafir and they label them with Kufr, from a person who is totally innocent (Muslim) and has no signs of Kufr in them. Major difference.

To further explain what I've said

It all matters on the persons intention, if the person actually thinks that a specific individual has committed an act of Kufr (or Shirk), by speech or action, and the persons makes Takfeer, then it's actually not blameworthy

The problem comes in when Takfeer is made based upon minor Kufr, such as a person gambling and he is done Takfeer on. This is obviously wrong as the act of gambling is not Kufr, it's a major sin, unless the person openly says gambling is ok

Yet, there are acts or sayings, if any individual does them intentionally, without a doubt the person has committed Kufr (or Shirk)

[Baygham]

I recommend a complete moratorium on the activity with severe consequences for its use by any and all. Use of the pashtoon jirga system in this regard will be very usefull.

.................................................. You're simply giving a hollow speech without any substance or solution. What existing principles, in history or today, can solve this problem? What's the ideal example of how a society should be?

Many people have issues yet give absolutely not solution

Please read my solution above.

I recommend a complete moratorium on the activity (of takfir) with severe consequences for its use by any and all. Use of the pashtoon jirga system in this regard will be very usefull

[Baygham]

Baygham wror my response was directed to another member who brought the entire apostasy = death argument. I stated that no where in the Quran does it say that.

do you see it as a problem, one we should address and address soon and forcefully.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I propose that it should be obligatory on a pashtoon to take badal from those that spread hatred that leads to the death of a fellow pashtoon for his views.
Takfir is on top of this list.

Anyone using takfir as the basis of a pashtoon death should be killed and the group sanctioned by pashtoons in pashtoon land.

Otherwise we will all kill each other.

why are you being paranoid. You said in the other thread that you are a "musalman". So why are you scared of being killed for being a kaafir?

And if you propose badal, I want to ask you something, on what grounds to you entitle yourself to propose anything in Pashto?


Because you are paranoid, emotional and afraid of being killed for apostasy

You said you are a muslim. So relax. Nobody is going to kill you. Except Americans maybe.

[Baygham]

why are you being paranoid. You said in the other thread that you are a "musalman". So why are you scared of being killed for being a kaafir?

And if you propose badal, I want to ask you something, on what grounds to you entitle yourself to propose anything in Pashto?


Because you are paranoid, emotional and afraid of being killed for apostasy

You said you are a muslim. So relax. Nobody is going to kill you. Except Americans maybe.

I am not scared of the mullah, I can take care of myself. I am worried about those that cant. Its holding us back.

Why are you against holding the reigns on takfir, sangar wrora. Is it going to be a set back?

[شمله ور خراساني]

I am not scared of the mullah, I can take care of myself. I am worried about those that cant. Its holding us back.

Why are you against holding the reigns on takfir, sangar wrora. Is it going to be a set back?

takfeer is as I said obligatory. He who refrains from takfeer on the clear case of kufr is a murji. And Irja is by itself a sin.