Islams achilles tendon - Takfir.

[Saif ul Haq]

Please read my solution above.

I recommend a complete moratorium on the activity (of takfir) with severe consequences for its use by any and all. Use of the pashtoon jirga system in this regard will be very usefull

Pashtoon jirga system is not ideally recognized to bring justice, it's based upon the individuals desires

[Baygham]

takfeer is as I said obligatory. He who refrains from takfeer on the clear case of kufr is a murji. And Irja is by itself a sin.

So once mullah omar decreees that baygham has commited takfir, it becomes obligatory on you to have me killed. Otherwise you will be a murji having commited irja.

So much for pakhtunwali. What if it is not mullah omar but mullah of kaaba or raiwand that calls baygham (a pashtoon) as having commited takfir, will you listen to them too.

[شمله ور خراساني]

So once mullah omar decreees that baygham has commited takfir,

There are a few things that need to be corrected with this sentence. The act of disbelieving is kufr. Recognizing thisbelief is takfeer.

And one cannot degree that such and so has commited takfeer.

it becomes obligatory on you to have me killed.

No. Suppose you mock our religion and ridicule quran and sunnah or say something offensive about allah or his messengers. Then your action is an act of kufr. And if I would go about and say that you are a muslim. Then I will be commiting irja.

So I should not do that. Because it is a sin. Since you have clearly (hypothetically) commited kufr, I should point out that you are guilty of kufr.

However, death penality is not an individual act. You need a shari'i court, a qaazi, witnesses and then and only then, you can be punished. And a death sentence will follow once your kufr is established after sufficient evidence have been provided and you have been quizzed by the judge.

No individual Muslim is allowed to go and kill people of whom he thinks he or she is a kaafir.

This is the ideology of takfeeris. A deviant sect among muslims who have caused serious problems through-out history.

Otherwise you will be a murji having commited irja.

No. Not killing someone is not irja. But calling a kaafir a muslim is. As I explained above, killing is a matter that needs to be done via a legal procedure by a court of shari'i law. Not random individuals.

So much for pakhtunwali.

Pashtunwali is meaningless compared to Islam. And even in pashto court, a kaafir will be dealt with by quran and sunnah.

Modern Pashto courts of the Ahmadzai tribe deal primarily in accordance with Shari'ah law. But it is carried out in a Pashto customary fashion.

Still, a pashto court cannot discharge death sentences.

What if it is not mullah omar but mullah of kaaba

Mullah kaaba does not have jurisdiction in Afghanistan.

or raiwand

same answer. Raiwind has no juristiction in Afghanistan.

But scholars from Afghanistan can approach scholars from Raiwind and kaaba for advice in matters of jurisprudence. Yet the final decision is with the court of law of Afghanistan. Not some foreign court.

that calls baygham (a pashtoon)

Who cares if you are a Pashtun or an eskimo. Afghanistan is an Islamic country. Your pashtoon identity means absolutely nothing in a court of law.

[Baygham]

There are a few things that need to be corrected with this sentence. The act of disbelieving is kufr. Recognizing thisbelief is takfeer.
.............................................

Who cares if you are a Pashtun or an eskimo. Afghanistan is an Islamic country. Your pashtoon identity means absolutely nothing in a court of law.

So this judge will be a shia pashtoon, or from your sect. And since you do not recognize pashtoon, than why limit the scholarship of a mullah in kaaba from ordering a court of mullahs in kaaba to issue an order for afghanistan. Does islam recognize geographic boundaries but not ethnic.

[شمله ور خراساني]

So this judge will be a shia pashtoon, or from your sect. And since you do not recognize pashtoon, than why limit the scholarship of a mullah in kaaba from ordering a court of mullahs in kaaba to issue an order for afghanistan. Does islam recognize geographic boundaries but not ethnic.

Afghanistan is not a shi'a country. And the shi'ites in Afghanistan practice their thingy but their shi'ite creed does not have legitimacy. Because absolute majority of Afghanistan are from Ahlul Sunnah. And their jurisprudence is hanafi.

[Baygham]

Afghanistan is not a shi'a country. And the shi'ites in Afghanistan practice their thingy but their shi'ite creed does not have legitimacy. Because absolute majority of Afghanistan are from Ahlul Sunnah. And their jurisprudence is hanafi.

Does Quran and sunnah recognize the geographic boundaries of british carved countries or for that matter any country. If not, does that make the concept of Afghansitan unislamic.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Does Quran and sunnah recognize the geographic boundaries of british carved countries or for that matter any country. If not, does that make the concept of Afghansitan unislamic.

No. according to quran and sunnah. th whole earth is the land belonging to allah. So borders are not recognized.


However, due to colonialism and stupidity of muslims, we are now divided in different nations.

And as it is currently in Afghanistan and other parts of the world, the local authority is entitled to rule its dominion in accordance to shariah. Which is the case everywhere outside Kabul and a few other urbanized centres.

[Baygham]

No. according to quran and sunnah. th whole earth is the land belonging to allah. So borders are not recognized.


However, due to colonialism and stupidity of muslims, we are now divided in different nations.

And as it is currently in Afghanistan and other parts of the world, the local authority is entitled to rule its dominion in accordance to shariah. Which is the case everywhere outside Kabul and a few other urbanized centres.

So shimla saab, you do not recognize aghanistan or the pashtoon identity, in your heart they are idiotic schemes and created by dajaal to serve taghoot. And if you have your way you will have none of it.

Wow, and I was just worried about your pakhtoon loyalties.

[شمله ور خراساني]

So shimla saab, you do not recognize aghanistan or the pashtoon identity, in your heart they are idiotic schemes and created by dajaal to serve taghoot. And if you have your way you will have none of it.

Wow, and I was just worried about your pakhtoon loyalties.

obviously you are not a pashtun yourself. Because if you were, you would have known that it is "shamla" and not "shimla".

So who are you to be talking about pashto if you dont even know what shamla is?

[Baygham]

obviously you are not a pashtun yourself. Because if you were, you would have known that it is "shamla" and not "shimla".

So who are you to be talking about pashto if you dont even know what shamla is?

thats all? LOL
if you noticed I wrote takfir and you takfaar, you previously corrected me on 'fitwa' and you said 'fatwa'
in kabul they say mirch, in pakhtunkwha we say marchakay, so f what.

Reminds me of a dream a friend of mine once narrated at the peak of taliban weehshath.

In his dream, the pashtoons had finally woken up, they were chasing the taliban killers left and right, raiding madrassass and other hideouts. One such mob closed on a madrasssa and the surma laden, black turban talibs started running, while running they were quickly getting rid of there black turbans, lowering there partooq sleeves and one entered a barbar shop and said cut it all off, which the barber quickly did. Clean shaven, he comes out, the mob by this time is close by and asked him
'Chartha larral' (where did they go)
The clean shaven turban less, surma washed talib replied: "sook dhaaahsi larral aw sook dhaaahsi" rolling the aan in arabic talib style (having arabized his pashtoo). The mob took care of him on the spot.

[3.14159265...]

No where in the Quran does it say that. Its a man made law used to justify the means when necessary.

A man made law that defies 2:255-256.

Shamla, on what basis can an Islamic court give the death punishment to an apostate? Is the basis the Quran, or the Hadith?

[شمله ور خراساني]

A man made law that defies 2:255-256.

Shamla, on what basis can an Islamic court give the death punishment to an apostate? Is the basis the Quran, or the Hadith?

As far as I know, hadeeth. But i am not qualified to give a proper answer to this question since scholars derive rulings in shariah from different hadeeths and ayat.

So if you want to get a clear answer, you need to approach an expert in islamic jurisprudence.

The one I consult regularly is Sheikh Saalih Al Munajjid. He cross-checks with different schools of jurisprudence.

You can contact him via Islam Question and Answer

[شمله ور خراساني]

thats all? LOL
if you noticed I wrote takfir and you takfaar,

No. thats not all. But you do have a habit of going astray to nonsensical arguments when you have been thoroughly answered.

And thank you for correcting me for misspelling takfeer.

you previously corrected me on 'fitwa' and you said 'fatwa'

Fatwa is an Arabic word.

in kabul they say mirch,

No they dont. In Kabul, they speak Dari and Pashto. In Dari its morch. And in Pashto its mrach.

in pakhtunkwha we say marchakay, so f what.

So what? If it was a Pashto word, obviously it would have been subject to pashto dialect. However, the words takfeer and fatwa are not pashto.


However, Shamla is Shamla. Regardless of where you are in Pashtunkhwa. Lar or bar.

Reminds me of a dream a friend of mine once narrated at the peak of taliban weehshath.

In his dream, the pashtoons had finally woken up, they were chasing the taliban killers left and right, raiding madrassass and other hideouts. One such mob closed on a madrasssa and the surma laden, black turban talibs started running, while running they were quickly getting rid of there black turbans, lowering there partooq sleeves and one entered a barbar shop and said cut it all off, which the barber quickly did. Clean shaven, he comes out, the mob by this time is close by and asked him
'Chartha larral' (where did they go)
The clean shaven turban less, surma washed talib replied: "sook dhaaahsi larral aw sook dhaaahsi" rolling the aan in arabic talib style (having arabized his pashtoo). The mob took care of him on the spot.

You have gay cousins and lying friends.

This story is not a dream of your friend. It is a joke about secularist revolution in Turkey. The Turkish Secularists were chasing Turkish imaams.

But lateron this joke was adapted in Afghanistan for Khalqiyan chasing down people with beards who attended mosques and dressed in white.

You need to work on your material.

[3.14159265...]

As far as I know, hadeeth. But i am not qualified to give a proper answer to this question since scholars derive rulings in shariah from different hadeeths and ayat.

So if you want to get a clear answer, you need to approach an expert in islamic jurisprudence.

The one I consult regularly is Sheikh Saalih Al Munajjid. He cross-checks with different schools of jurisprudence.

You can contact him via Islam Question and Answer

You didn't say you didn't know whether that was the case.

You said a Sharia court can punish an apostate with death.

That statement you made assuming. I know the answer to this question. You should find out and do not claim what the answer is till you have researched.

[شمله ور خراساني]

You didn't say you didn't know whether that was the case.

You said a Sharia court can punish an apostate with death.

That statement you made assuming. I know the answer to this question. You should find out and do not claim what the answer is till you have researched.

As I said, hadeeth. And I have read those ahadeeth. And according to the scholars those ahadeeth are classified as authentic.

However, as I explained to you, scholars from different schools of jurisprudence might derive a ruling based on different sources. And I do not know all the sources.

I explained the procedure how one is prosecuted and punished. Which is a legal procedure.

But I have refered you to consult scholars to give you a proper answer.

What is it that you require more than that?