Shia Islam for Dummies: Ask Those who Know

[abubaker]

I never once said I believe that the 12 imams had such "powers"
I support them as the legitimate rulers of the umma at the expense of the dynasty ur beloved muawiyya ( who could think only of filling his belly -again see hadith from ur sources) founded!

you dont believe in the imamah but you support them to be the leaders of this ummah, lol

[Dreamer]

Prophet didnt mention Imamate but he mentioned the 12 amirs who u so far have failed 2 name! so stop loling and name them ur on 5 so far 7 more 2 go!
12 amirs= 12 imams.... u do the math

[abubaker]

yawn.... doesnt mean anything... why didnt he go 2 the deployment as ordered? u forgetting ghadir kawm? u forgetting the statement at the dinner where Abu Lahab kocled prophet for having a 10 yr old boy as his supporter and successor?

stick to one topic at time no need to jump around


what deployment order?

[abubaker]

Prophet didnt mention Imamate but he mentioned the 12 amirs who u so far have failed 2 name! so stop loling and name them ur on 5 so far 7 more 2 go!
12 amirs= 12 imams.... u do the math

ok this is getting stupid your ulema say one thing and you are telling me another


who should i believe

[Dreamer]

Lol.... Just answer the questions... then we will talk... uve failed so far... ur clearly lacking in intelligence 2 still make the distinction between how I identify myself politically as Imams Alis shia and the modern meaning....

[abubaker]

those shiahs were the same as today

the sabaite as you describe youself were predecessors of today's ithna asharite shias

so stop twisting things

[Dreamer]

so Miqdad and Salman al farsi were shias of today .... interesting.... and here was me thinking u glorify the sahaba or is that reserved for certain sahaba only?

[abubaker]

so Miqdad and Salman al farsi were shias of today .... interesting.... and here was me thinking u glorify the sahaba or is that reserved for certain sahaba only?

they weren't among the sabite

[Dreamer]

LOOOOOOOOOL..... dude... Im gonna ask u again... according 2 BUKHARI according 2 MUSLIM there will be 12 amirs who will rule the umma all from quraish
12 imams all from quraish made the claim 2 caliphate.... 12 imams= 12 Amirs
U out of ur hatred for them and love for Muawiya and co deny their claim so who are ur 12 amirs?????? ANSWER THIS QUESTION!

[Dreamer]

PS the deployment was the army of usama bin zaid which prophet orderd amongst others caliph 1 and 2 2 go with.... so why were they in Medina?

[Dreamer]

Why did Imam refuse 2 give baya 2 Caliph 1 for 6 months? and only did so after his wife died (remeber she died angry with caliph 1 according 2 Bukhari) and did so 2 preserve the peace...
why did caliph 1 and 2 rush off 2 saqifa leaving the prophets burial to Imam Ali....

[Dreamer]

im not convinced about the incident of the door .... Ill have 2 read more abt it.... but many sunni historians say it happened and I provided u with refrences .... so what say u that ur ULEMA say that such a disgusting thing happened.... that a sahaba dared to threaten the proohets daughter and those under her protection with fire

[abubaker]

dude u really are stupid.... answer me who the 12 amirs are
answer me why quran contradicts Caliphs 1 reasons for witholding fadak from bibi Fatima

what contradiction?

your own books confirm hat abubakers decision was right

“The Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge.” (al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42)


this hadiath is confirmed to be sahih by ayatolah khomaini himself

the same hadith is used by khomaini to validate his ''wilaya faqih'' however it seems its not enough to defend the honour of the greatest sahaba ever lived

the shiah ''infalibale'' imam sadiq also agrees with the decision of abubaker. so if you cnosider abubaker [ra] to be a liar then surly you must also consider imam sadiq[ra], Allamah Majlisi [considered the hadith to be authintic] and khomaini a liar

“What we leave behind is to become alms.” (Hadith ash-Shafi)
------------------
answer me why did Muawiyya not stop cursing of Imam Ali from the pulpits of syria which he governed

i believe you are refering to this

not only did you fail to post the hadith let alone the sandad of it


''Altabari reported:

When Muawiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan put al-Mughairah Ibn Shubah in charge of Kufah in Jumada 41 (September 2- October 30, 661), he summoned him. After praising and glorifying God, he said:
"Now then, indeed a forbearing person has been admonished in the past... The wise might do what you want without instruction. Although I have wanted to advise you about many things, I left them alone, trusting in your discernment of what pleases me, what helps my regime and what sets my subjects [raiyyah] on the right path. I would continue to advise you about a quality of yours- do not refrain from abusing Ali and criticizing him, not from asking God's mercy upon Uthman and His forgiveness for him. Continue to shame the companions of Ali, keep at a distance, and don't listen to them. Praise the faction of Uthman, bring them near, and listen to them."

Sunni reference: History of Tabari, English version, events of year 51 AH, Execution of Hujr Ibn Adi, v18, pp 122-123

AND In Tarikh Kamil Volume 3 page 234 ''

the sanad of the hadith

Hisham bin Muhammad - Abu Mikhnaf - Mujallid bin Said and Fudayl and Al Husayn Bin Uqbah

this is what the scholars of ''jarh wa tadleel'' have to say about Abu Mikhnaf

Dhahabi said about him, " Abu Mikhnaf, a worthless reporter, not relied upon, Abu Hatim and others abandoned him."


Abu Hatim also said about Abu Mikhnaf, "Abdur Rahman said: 'I heared Yahya Bin Ma'in say, 'Abu Mikhnaf is not trustworthy'. Abdur Rahman also said, ' I heared my father say, "Abu Mikhnaf's narrations are abandoned" ( Kittab Al-Jarh Wa T'adeel V.7 p. 182)

Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, gave order to Sa'd, and told him: "What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab (nickname of Ali)?" Sa'd replied: "Don't you remember that the Prophet said three things about (the virtue of) Ali? So I will never curse Ali."

now as far as i know there is difference between a question and actually cursing some one, i cant believe how you could take this question and interpret it as being cursing Ali [ra]

we also know that when muawyah [ra] became a khalif [you migt isagree with this], that hasan [ra] gave him bayah, so if mwawyah was really cursing Ali [ra] why would his son give him bayah..hmmm [sahih bukhari]

the prophet makes duwah for muwawyah [ra]


Rasoolullah Sallalaahu alyhi wa Sallam said about him: "O’ Allah, make him
guided, a guider, and guide people through him."
[Sunan Al-Tirmidhi, Book of Virtues, Chapter of Virtues of Mu’awiyah,"]

Regarding the first Naval jihaad Rasoolullah Sallalaahu alyhi wa Sallam said
"..Jannah is Waajib for them..."
This Jihaad was led by Muawiyah Radhi Allaahu Ta'ala 'anh
.

this also proves the level of iimaan of Muawyah [ra]

Al-Shareef Al-Ridi
narrated in Nahjul Balagha a speech delivered by Ali where Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu
says:


"In the beginning of our matter, the people of Sham and us met. It is obvious
that our God is one, our Prophet is one, and our call in Islam is one. We do not
see ourselves more in faith in Allah or more in believing His messenger than
them, nor they do. Our matter is one, except for our disagreement in Uthman’s
blood, and we are innocent from his murder."
[Nahjul Balagha, vol.3, p.648]

And Muawiyah Radhi Allaahu Ta'ala 'anh said:

"Ali is better and more virtuous than me and I differ from him only in the
matter of qisaas of Uthmaan (Radhi Allaahu Ta'ala 'anh) and if he takes the
qisaas of the blood of uthmaan I will be the first of the people of syria to
make bayah to him"
[al-Bidayatu wan Nihaayah page 129,259 vol 7]

that also throws your claim out of the window


and i leave you with this

If you see those who criticize my companions, say to them

"May the curse of Allah be on the evil of you"


one more thing

i know you are going to bring this up so here it is


“May Allah not fill his belly.”

regarding muawyah


now you as a shiah may think that this to curse muawyah [ra]

where in fact his is making dua for him, you see in Arabic there is a saying ''that may allah not fill your belly'' meaning may Allah give you never ending rizq. ask any Arab about this and you will get your confirmation

, “May Allah not fill his belly.”




---------------------
answer me why did caliph 3 commit nepotism?

Umayyads appointed by Uthman

1. Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan. appointed by umar [ra] during his life time not by uthman [ra]
2. Said ibn al-As.
3. al-Walid ibn Uqba. appointed by umar [ra] in his life time and appointed by uthman [ra]
4. Abdullah ibn Ammar ibn Kurayz.
5. Abdullah ibn Sad ibn Abu Sarkh
6. Abdullah ibn Samurah.
7. Ali ibn Ade
8. Marwan ibn al-Hakam.

--

Non Umayyads appointed by Uthman
1. Abu Musa Ashari
2. Qaqaa bin Umru
3. Jabir Mazni
4. Habib bin Muslima
5. Abdur Rahman bin Khalid bin Walid
6. Abwal Awar Salmi
7. Hakeem bin Salama
8. Ashas bin Qais
9. Jarir bin Abdullah bijli
10. Utaiba bin Nahaas
11. Malik bin Habeeb
12. Naseer Ajli
13. Saib bin Aqra
14. Saeed bin Qais
15. Salman bin Rabia
16. Khunais bin Khubaish

--

relatives appointed by Ali [ra]

1. Ubaidullah bin Abbas -- Yeman
2. Ma'bad bin Abbas -- Meccah
3. Qatham bin Abbas -- Madina
4. Abdullah ibn Abbas -- Iraq
5. Ja'd bin Hubairah (his son-in-law) -- Khurasan
6. Muhammad bin Abu Bakr (his step-son) -- Egypt
7. Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiyyah -- Commander of Army


what.. nah this cant be real, so Ali [ra] appointed one more relative then uthman [ra]...hmmmmm

so taarthoo khana as you can see the nepotism allegations are completly un founded... and if you are going to accuse uthman of nepotism then by the same logic Ali [ra] should be accused of nepotism aswell no .. naudobillah

U HAVE SO FAR FAILED

[Dreamer]

I dont believe kafee was 100% right... quran comes 1st... quran contradicts abu bakar.... which do u accept...
2 U still havent grasped the distinction between my shia and the modern shia.... ur grey cells must be running low
Nepotisim? Caliph 3 appointed corrupt ppl from Banu ummaya and refused 2 listen 2 complaints about them hence the uprising against him (at least 1 of the reasons)... as for cursing im not cursing but showing what some of them did... siffan please explain why did he go 2 war with his caliph an act of TREASON.... who are the 12 amirs... why did caliph 1 and 2 not go with usamas regiment?

[Dreamer]

UR NOT GRASPING THAT I DO NOT ACCEPT THE TERM SAHIH either shia or sunni.... if its against quran its out! but then we cant expect much frm u can we since u bang on abt the same retoric