Can Law derived from Quran unify the Pashtoon

[amna.]

What do you mean by the phrase, "That is not what Islam teaches" That is exactly what Islam teaches. We will always have deviated sects but even Ahmadis Pervais defend Islam. They promote unity and peace.

You cant name me 1 sect that says no to unity and peace.

Your questions is can law derived from the Quran unify us and my answer is yes since the law in the Quran promotes unity. If the Pashtuns do not unify while claiming they followed the Quran obviously they did not follow it properly.

[Baygham]

What do you mean by the phrase, "That is not what Islam teaches" That is exactly what Islam teaches. We will always have deviated sects but even Ahmadis Pervais defend Islam. They promote unity and peace.

You cant name me 1 sect that says no to unity and peace.

Your questions is can law derived from the Quran unify us and my answer is yes since the law in the Quran promotes unity. If the Pashtuns do not unify while claiming they followed the Quran obviously they did not follow it properly.

In the history of humanity, has a place ever followed the law of the Quran and if it has, were the muslim unified under that law and is that applicable today in pashtoon land.

We are not concerned with the defence of Islam, If the creator of the universe needs my protection than he needs to vacate his throne and let me sit on it.

Since you named two deviant sects so easily, can you name one non deviant sect. Just one. Please.

You ask for the name of one sect that does not promote unity and peace. Are you living on mars. The ahli-hadith routinely kill the qadianis and shias, the shia kill the sunnis and visa versa, the ahli-hadith vs ahli sunna wal jummath battles are labeled by one party as real muslims vs grave worshippers, The quranist or pervaizi are not well known but will not be spared if they do become well known. The wahabis, deobandis, and others have full backing of their respective intelligence services promoting killing of fellow muslims. Not one imam has ever said that they will accept the teaching of the other sect and live in harmony ever after. For every one Kafir killed by these jihadis for islam they kill a hundred muslims of another sect.

[amna.]

In the history of humanity, has a place ever followed the law of the Quran and if it has, were the muslim unified under that law and is that applicable today in pashtoon land.

We are not concerned with the defence of Islam, If the creator of the universe needs my protection than he needs to vacate his throne and let me sit on it.

Since you named two deviant sects so easily, can you name one non deviant sect. Just one. Please.

You ask for the name of one sect that does not promote unity and peace. Are you living on mars. The ahli-hadith routinely kill the qadianis and shias, the shia kill the sunnis and visa versa, the ahli-hadith vs ahli sunna wal jummath battles are labeled by one party as real muslims vs grave worshippers, The quranist or pervaizi are not well known but will not be spared if they do become well known. The wahabis, deobandis, and others have full backing of their respective intelligence services promoting killing of fellow muslims. Not one imam has ever said that they will accept the teaching of the other sect and live in harmony ever after. For every one Kafir killed by these jihadis for islam they kill a hundred muslims of another sect.

No matter how many sects we have they promote the basic fundamentals of Islam. Qadianis, Pervaizis they all believe in the Quran. Prove me wrong if they don't. IF they believe in the Quran that means they believe in Brotherhood,unity and peace.

As to your 2nd part I would obviously be biased and my distinct opinion would be of no worth. Your question was can Islam bring us together my answer with proof being the Quran is yes.

[Zarawar]

maybe you can answer what zarawar wrore so desperately ran away from.

Beghama I represent Islam, inshAllah tar qyamata porey ba pa haq jangego. If you are trying to be a kid by saying "oh you ran away, or oh he ran away", then your excused. But, if you're trying to be realistic then scroll up I already answered your questions, you keep throwing irrelevant questions at my questions (that I keep asking you), instead of answering me you avoid my question and come around it. I'm not here to go in circles with you, some might do, I'd rather spend this time persuading someone with brains to Haq. You started off acting all neutral so you can get some attention, when faced with facts and questions, you avoid it by responding in a childish manner. Just because I logged off this discussion, doesn't mean I ran away. I have a life, out here in the real world. Kindly don't label me as "run away". I'm here.
Now, lets get back to the real deal.
According to you I ran away from this "Zarawar wrora, since you are so confident and I am not. Can you name this sect that you belong to, are you just one person or more than one, Where is your mosque where the less fortunate who are not as sure can go for guidance. ."
I already answered you in the previous page, regarding MY sect. First of all I don't consider myself belonging to a sect, but rather, Islam. Islam is not a sect, it's a religion, with a verifiable Book and Hadith, now you go through your dictionary and find a word for that Sect. And, just to clarify and get the confusions out of the way, I don't dare to refute or doubt any of Quranic text or Hadith. Again, I believe in the purest form of Islam there is (Quran/Hadith/Sunnah of Prophet SAW), and know exactly what I'm referring to, you are smart enough. I hope things are more clear and the "run away" misconception is gone?
Back to my question, although you did answer it up to most extent. " it would be better to consider every human as a human with the same right to be happy and well and not to impose on him or her your own wishes/fears/judgments and burdons" < these are your words
This doesn't seem to be a very rational response, from Islamic point of view. Correct me if I'm wrong, based on what you said there, you are suggesting we leave the things the way they are (functionalism). I get two things from this, you either don't believe in Islam (because you don't want things to change, you just want people to carry on with their lives, let them do what ever they want, even if they're following a false religion/ or sect in your words), or either you belong to one of the 73 sects that is over-confident about his views being wrong, to be more precise views like Elijah Mohammad and Louis Farrakhan hold. Please assist me here.....I shouldn't be the only one answering.

[Zarawar]

zarawar wrora, oos pa khpal iiman sharmeegi,

can not state it, can you, if you say it you know you will be shred to pieces. iiman dhey doomra kamzooray dhay, dhawee kho dhee dhumra oojathee kawalee.
Shut up, be a man, talk like a man, not like a little girl. za pa khpal iman na sharmegam, you are the one switching from being a non believer to a believer and finally a Sunni? OK, let me be straight with you, I have never met a sunni this unsure of his faith, admit it you are just posing as a Sunni just to blend in amongst Muslims/Sunnis and use that against them. Trust me, it doesn't go unnoticed, it's obvious you believe in fairy tales not Islam. Nice try ..

As for me, I was born a sunni muslim.
And what is your point, where should that take me?
I am still a cultural musalman. And even god and his ten thoushand prophets cannot take that away from me, let alone some mullah.
You are going in circles buddy. Are you a Sunni Muslims or not? don't even think about fooling me by these cultural sunni musalman crap. Well, according to Sunni/Muslim believes, challenging God by saying God cannot take "that" from me, makes you a murtad.
Consider me one of the 73 or 1003 sects, the other 72 will call me murtad. Just the same as they will call you.
lol you are trying too hard, we never said you were one of the Murtad sects. I never said that. Oh and no one has called me a Murtad yet. One is considered a Murtad even he/she rejects a tiny part like a "zer" or "zabar" of Islam, I DON'T REJECT ANYTHING ISLAM TEACHES ME (QURAN/HADITH). Unless you can proof me wrong here.
I care too hoots about Janat or doozakh, I believe in my fellow human beings. I believe in mutual respect of every human and the sanctity of life and honour it above every thing else.

I believe in this world and improving humanities condition here, during my lifetime and after it leaving it intact for the next generation.

What is improving humanities? elaborate...Because I thought you were trying to portray that there was no such thing as Good or Bad Muslim and the sectarian chaos is always going to carry on. You also said that we should respect each other and not bother with that. That doesn't seem to go parallel with your "Improving humanities" suggestion.

.

[Baygham]

No matter how many sects we have they promote the basic fundamentals of Islam. Qadianis, Pervaizis they all believe in the Quran. Prove me wrong if they don't. IF they believe in the Quran that means they believe in Brotherhood,unity and peace.

As to your 2nd part I would obviously be biased and my distinct opinion would be of no worth. Your question was can Islam bring us together my answer with proof being the Quran is yes.

My question was can the quran bring pashtoon unity, and you answered yes it can and forwarded the quran as proof. What kind of logic is that.

Its like me saying, Can my village idiot ziarat gull kaka as head of state, bring pashtoon unity, and then say yes he can and as proof i offer Ziarat gull kaka. Does that make any sense.

Please forward the practicality of such a statement. How can the Quran bring unity when you dont agree on its meaning or message, or prove that all pashtoons agree on its meaning and message.

[amna.]

Baygham jaana,
99.9 percent of all Pashtuns accept the Quran and its meaning. Those Pashtuns that have deviated have walked away because of minor things. Nearly all are Muslims that accept the Quran.

My logic is quite simple and easy to understand. Quran can bring Pashtoon unity because it preaches unity.

Ziarat Gul Kaka might be in idiot when it comes to learning French but if he posesses good leadership qualities and honest morals I wouldnt be surprised if he does unify your village.

Notice your fallacy?

[شمله ور خراساني]

Baygham,

Islam is not some sort of Utopian vision like Marxism that claims to bring all mankind together.

Neither are we as Muslims under the pretention that Islam can bring absolute unity. No where does it say in Quran that all mindkind can be unified in this world.

Allah guides whom he wills and misguides whom he wills. Suppose you have bad intentions, and you are not a sincere person. Then allah will misguide you and you can never be a good Muslim. And suppose you are honest and sincere. And Allah will guide you in accordance to your intentions.

So if Allah the almighty is in charce of our hearts. And he can turn our hearts in favor or against our common good based on our intentions, why should we go about daydreaming of stuff that aren't there?

There is no point believing that some ayat of QUran are like a magic spell that if you recite it, suddenly everyone will jump on the bandwagon.

This notion of guidance and misguidance is applicable to people on this forum. We have here a Qadiani priest, a Pervezi who can't speak Arabic and a gang of apostate nihilists and a few decent Muslims. Why would we, as Muslims want to unite with Qadianis, Pervezi's and nihilist apostates?

We as muslims are only obliged to convey the message of Islam to the misguided. It is up to allah to turn their hearts or not. Since he knows of their intentions.

[Baygham]

Baygham,

......................................This notion of guidance and misguidance is applicable to people on this forum. We have here a Qadiani priest, a Pervezi who can't speak Arabic and a gang of apostate nihilists and a few decent Muslims. Why would we, as Muslims want to unite with Qadianis, Pervezi's and nihilist apostates?

We as muslims are only obliged to convey the message of Islam to the misguided. It is up to allah to turn their hearts or not. Since he knows of their intentions.

So a pluralistic society is out of the question. It will my way or the highway.

Who will decide on laws and where will they come from. Can these laws be debated and if yes by who. Will there be a council of mullahs that will be the final arbitrator like in Iran, or a theologic monarchy with the two seperate but interlinked to a single denomination like in Saudia. And what will we do with the Qadianis, pervezis, nihilist apostates and shias. Will we have to kill them or sent them to sweep our streets, will they vote, go to schools, attain higher office.

Wont it be just as easy for the different groups to unite under a secular banner and get rid of you.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

What I fail to understand about you, Baygham, is that on the one side you are trying unite everyone and on the other hand you have hatred for all sects of Islam. To me is a clear contradiction. If it is a paradox, please elaborate.

What is it that you really want?

[Baygham]

Baygham jaana,
99.9 percent of all Pashtuns accept the Quran and its meaning. ...................................?

99.9 cant understand the Quran due to language barrier.

99.9% love the Quran. Just like 99.9 love their mother or children. Its an emotional reaction taught by society. It has no rational ground. They have no clue what the quran preaches and how it will effect them. But since they have to love the Quran or death for blasphemy there is no choice but love it, through centuries of intimidation. Thinking otherwise is forbidden.

As an example go through this practical scenario that happened in Swat only recently. A girl caught talking to a boy was charged with fornication and lashed in front of a crowd. In absolute accordance to the Quran. As a supporter of Quranic law, do you want these laws to govern you. Please dont circumvent by irrational arguments.

Sura Al-Nur

[24:2] The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty. [24:3] The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.

Following these two verses, the taliban, pulled the girl, put her on the ground and lashed her, followed by some reports of marrying her to the other adulterer.

Now will we be appointing a moral police to drag our women or how will this be accomplished.

[شمله ور خراساني]

So a pluralistic society is out of the question. It will my way or the highway.

Who will decide on laws and where will they come from. Can these laws be debated and if yes by who. Will there be a council of mullahs that will be the final arbitrator like in Iran, or a theologic monarchy with the two seperate but interlinked to a single denomination like in Saudia. And what will we do with the Qadianis, pervezis, nihilist apostates and shias. Will we have to kill them or sent them to sweep our streets, will they vote, go to schools, attain higher office.

Wont it be just as easy for the different groups to unite under a secular banner and get rid of you.

I've explained this matter in great detail with other people obsessed with Western political models.

The problem is, is that people do not understanding certain often repeated statements of Muslims.

We say that Allah is the only law-giver. It means that what allah has decreed is the final verdict. For instance, prohibition of certain things. Such as usury (interest). And the lawgiver has expressed himself via a medium. The medium is the prophet saww through which we have received the revelations. And the revelations are best practiced and implemented by the prophet saww. And he is the best of guidance. So what he preached and practiced is intrinsic part of Islam. Combined with Quran it is what we call Shariah. Divine law.

Shariah concerns every aspect of human life. From how we pray, to how we eat, what we eat, how we treat one another (muslims) and others, how we do business and how we sleep and even go to the toilet.

This does not mean that Quran contains ayat which details how we should build roads. The is a large part of knowledge that is based on Islamic principles. But are not religiously decreed. But this does not mean that we should allow women to become political leaders. Or that Shi'ites, Pervezi's or Qadianis participate in political and religious bodies and become rulers over normal Muslims.

The people who are allowed to debate laws are members of the Islamic legislature. And such a body must be guarded from making laws and regulations that are un-Islamic. Therefore, you need to have scholars who can verify and if necessary do ijtihad.

The large body of Muslims are the 4 schools of fiqh. The Ahnaaf, Hanabila, Maliki's and Shafi's. They are the orthodox Muslims. The Ahlul Sunnah wal Jam'ah. Despite some differences among these 4 schools, they form the core body of Islam and Muslims. The rulers and leaders of a Muslim society cannot be anyone other then them. We cannot have a clean shaven alcoholic like Babrak Karmal or a corrupt thief like Asfgandyar Wali Khan as a leader. We need decent Muslims to govern us.

And governance evolves around laws and regulations. In Islam you can have a law giving body that decrees additional practical laws concerning matters not detailed in Quran or Sunnah. Like laws concerning ethics of medicine. Or laws concerning prohibition of certain type of trade. Or laws concerning the redistribution of wealth. This body can be a shura or a jirga of representatives. The laws and decrees of such body must be in accordance with quran and sunnah. Even if something is not mentioned in Quran, like how we should deal with smoking, we can reason by analogy and come to conclusion that smoking is prohibited. Because scientific discoveries have provided enough evidence to conclude that it is harmful for people to smoke. So smoking can be declared as prohibited.

In different regions, people use different school of fiqh as jurisprudence. In Afghanistan it is the Hanafi fiqh.

Public representatives must be chosen in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. You cannot promote yourself as a candidate the way it is done in Democratic elections. Because promoting oneself by telling lies like promising to lower taxes and increasing public services are un-Islamic. One should be elected as a representative of his community based on his merits. An educated person, a scholar of Islam, a respected patriarch etc.

The democratic models of Iran & Saudi Arabia are not based entirely on Quran and Sunnah. Therefore we cannot assume that whatever they do must be the ultimate solution. Because Iran is a shi'ite state where they disbelieve in authenticity of Quran and ascribe divinity to their Imams. Their Imams have similar functions and atributes as Allah. Of course such a belief system and ideology is deviant. And whatever they do is contradictory to Islamic monotheism. Where Allah is not likened to his creation.

Saudi Arabia is a monarchy where the monarch family has final say in everything. It is not a Shari'i system because there, people decide based on their lineage, and family. Not because of their merits. And in Saudi they have allowed Crusaders to station their military bases. which is a direct opposition to commands of the prophet saww to never allow Jews and Christians to occupy the holy land.

Therefore, Saudis and Iranians are in no way better of than the rest of us. And their model of governance is not something that should be copied and imitated.

Islam gives us enough space to use our creativity and brains to come to better, more effective and efficient solution for our day to day problems. It does not confine us to static models such as the planned economy of Soviet Union. Or the liberal democracies where the constitution is man made and could be changed if the majority of the people suddenly decide it is okay to kill people. Or to allow gay couples to marry and adopt children and raise them as gays.

Pluralistic society does not mean a society where everyone has the right to rule over others. The Western pluralist society is not what we strive for. We believe in certain truths and we do not allow those who disbelieve in them or those who reject aspects of it to dominate us. So Qadianis and Pervezi's can live. They will not be massacred. (Such doom scenario's only exist in your fantasy. This is why you keep repeating the killing of others. Which gives a clear picture of your psyche.) But they will have certain limits and boundaries in their participation in the society. They can have access to public services just like Jews, Christians and Hindus have. Because Islam allows this.

But deviants, disbelievers and secularists have no access to governance. Therefore any government that consists of Shi'ites, Qadianis, Pervezi's, Secularists, Nationalists and apostates is un-Islamic. And its laws are kufr.

This is why Muslims in Pakistan, at least the knowledgeable ones oppose Pakistani government.

Likewise, a government of invaders disbelievers and their nihilist servants who have occupied a Muslim land is not legitimate. Like in Afghanistan. And needs to be opposed.

[شمله ور خراساني]

99.9 cant understand the Quran due to language barrier.

99.9% love the Quran. Just like 99.9 love their mother or children. Its an emotional reaction taught by society. It has no rational ground. They have no clue what the quran preaches and how it will effect them. But since they have to love the Quran or death for blasphemy there is no choice but love it, through centuries of intimidation. Thinking otherwise is forbidden.

First of all, you are lying. You are making the numbers up. You have no evidence that 99.9 % of Muslims are ignorant of what quran teaches us.

Secondly, Even if it was true that 99.9% Of Muslims did not understand Arabic. There is still no evidence that they are ignorant of what Quran teaches. Because it is false. People do know what quran teaches us. In fact most of the moral values of our societies are based on Quran. And It is not obligatory for everyone to be speaking Arabic. There is no verse in Quran commanding people to adopt the Arabic language as their own. Quran is translated to allow people to understand it. But it is better for people to study it in original Arabic text.

As an example go through this practical scenario that happened in Swat only recently. A girl caught talking to a boy was charged with fornication and lashed in front of a crowd. In absolute accordance to the Quran. As a supporter of Quranic law, do you want these laws to govern you. Please dont circumvent by irrational arguments.

Sura Al-Nur

[24:2] The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty. [24:3] The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.

Following these two verses, the taliban, pulled the girl, put her on the ground and lashed her, followed by some reports of marrying her to the other adulterer.

Now will we be appointing a moral police to drag our women or how will this be accomplished.

First of all, the lashing you witnessed on TV of the incident in Swat was fake. It was revealed all across the world to horrify people and to make people hate Islam. And it certainly affected people like you. http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=231461

Secondly, Muslim Khan, spokesman of Taliban in Swat spoke against such lashing of innocent people. Thirdly, in the ayat of Quran, it says fornication. Fornication is sexual intercourse. And sexual intercourse out of wedlock must be witnessed or confessed in order to let the offender be punished. There is nothing wrong about it. For the past 1400 years Muslims did not have any problem with it. Only those who have been brainwashed by Western lifestyle of promiscuity and fornication find it reprehensible to punish fornicators.

[شمله ور خراساني]

A reoccurend trend among these apostate Pashtun Nihilists/Nationalists is their deep routed resentment and hatred for the religion. Their love for VODKA, promsecuity and dancing and singing has blinded them. All they see is the superiority of a Western Society which is in decline. And they oppose the religion of the majority of Pashtuns and use the media to lash out against the faith of millions of Pashtuns.

ANd at the same time, these immoral and nihilist bunch of demagogues speak of "rationality"

[Baygham]

...............................
Pluralistic society does not mean a society where everyone has the right to rule over others. The Western pluralist society is not what we strive for. We believe in certain truths and we do not allow those who disbelieve in them or those who reject aspects of it to dominate us. So Qadianis and Pervezi's can live. They will not be massacred. (Such doom scenario's only exist in your fantasy. This is why you keep repeating the killing of others. Which gives a clear picture of your psyche.) But they will have certain limits and boundaries in their participation in the society. They can have access to public services just like Jews, Christians and Hindus have. Because Islam allows this.

But deviants, disbelievers and secularists have no access to governance. Therefore any government that consists of Shi'ites, Qadianis, Pervezi's, Secularists, Nationalists and apostates is un-Islamic. And its laws are kufr.

..................

Ladies and Gentlemen. When Sangar wrore decides some of us may live. (So Qadianis and Pervezi's can live.) and he will set our limits (But they will have certain limits and boundaries in their participation in the society) others that he does not like as much will be shunned (But deviants, disbelievers and secularists have no access to governance). Only he will govern, the rest of us morons will stay just that - Morons.

Sangar wrora, I applaud you for the clarity of your conviction. Its going to be a long struggle, the force behind your conviction is the desire to please God and through that desire you see your position. Hopefully you see yourself as in a major role in the new setup as your knowledge is definetly in the top 1% amongst the pashtoons in matters of Quran and Sharia.

So in short my friends, there is going to be no compromise with the Islamist. Its their laws or no laws. Sangar has clearly stated so. Other sects even muslim sects can and will be labelled as not mainstream and excluded from Power and the status that comes with it. In essence a second hand citizen, like the christen Churras in peshawar who used to sweep the streets. They wont vote, or participate in legislature that makes laws, a body of mullahs will check if things confirm to their interpretation or not.

How is it that for centuries the pashtoons have not been governed by a shurra of mullahs, if that is all we have known. Even I remember the village mullah was of no bigger status than the village chumiyar or batiyar. Now they will become our masters and tell me what to eat, who to fornicate with, what to drink, how to pee. Give me a break.

There are much better ways to advance ones social status. Do something that improves the lives of your fellow human biengs. God has his universe, he can take care of himself, does not need Sangar to protect his honour. Sangar is only advancing his social status, in hope of sitting in the exalted shurra and ruling us. Otherwise all that time that he has used up learning this stuff is going to be wasted. An earthy ambition, just like mine or any body elses. At least mine is not disguised and wrapped in lies attributed to Allah.