Islam and Women

[Badlun]

badlun, as they say, one ought to keep an open mind about matters but not so much that their brains fall off. you have a habit of applying the glass to the water instead of the other way around which makes a great deal of difference. right and wrong doesn't begin or end at your personal convenience.

i can assure you that if you had an opportunity to live life the 'correct' way as you describe it, you will end up despising it in a very short period of time.

I understand what you mean but the empirical evidence is those societies where the girl-boy friend relation is going on successfully gives me courage for such bold statement in a Pashtun or Muslim society. We are all human beings with few cultural and social differences.

If religion is kept away from society and culture as well as politics then extra matrimonial relationship will not be considered an anomaly.

Just we need positive behavioral change then we will be able to identify things in proper perspective.

[DaZahroJaam.]

I understand what you mean but the empirical evidence is those societies where the girl-boy friend relation is going on successfully gives me courage for such bold statement in a Pashtun or Muslim society. We are all human beings with few cultural and social differences.

If religion is kept away from society and culture as well as politics then extra matrimonial relationship will not be considered an anomaly.

Just we need positive behavioral change then we will be able to identify things in proper perspective.

i get the impression that you are an atheist or someone who doesn't favor much or find religion of any use for the society which is alright. that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. however, when you say 'we' you mean the pashtun society who in majority are not necessarily atheists and are in fact muslims. realistically, what are you trying to achieve by introducing your version of how things ought to be, not instead of what is being wrongfully practiced but what should be practiced according to the proper ways of islam?? how are those individuals who want proper islam in our society going to benefit from what you are suggesting here without changing their religious beliefs?? are you in reality trying to get people to abandon religion all together?? because that i would not be okay with.

secondly, i would like to remind you that marriage is a constitution that is not necessarily religious. this constitution is there to protect both parties regardless of what their religious or personal beliefs are. if a man or woman of 60 years of age convinces a 13 year old or a mentally disabled individual to marry them, someone needs to step in and correct that. someone needs to step in and make sure that none of these two parties are being forced in to this relationship or are going to be subjects to abuse of any sort. in islam or other religious societies, it's a religious leader, in non religious societies, it's a government official.

life is not entirely about sex. you can't dedicate all the days of your life in to keeping various partners happy even if you do come across individuals who may be okay with that sort of a lifestyle. you have to educate yourself, build a life, have kids, provide for them and focus on excelling in a society as an individual, a parent and a responsible member of the society.
as a civilization, we wouldn't have lasted very long if our population had grown larger with out us focusing on expanding our resources and developing an advanced system of agriculture.

and how can we possibly prevent our societies from perishing if instead of focusing on things that requires for our immediate attention, we focus on changing our attitudes and behaviors towards revisioning the basic laws of the mankind??

[Badlun]

i get the impression that you are an atheist or someone who doesn't favor much or find religion of any use for the society which is alright. that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. however, when you say 'we' you mean the pashtun society who in majority are not necessarily atheists and are in fact muslims. realistically, what are you trying to achieve by introducing your version of how things ought to be, not instead of what is being wrongfully practiced but what should be practiced according to the proper ways of islam?? how are those individuals who want proper islam in our society going to benefit from what you are suggesting here without changing their religious beliefs?? are you in reality trying to get people to abandon religion all together?? because that i would not be okay with.

secondly, i would like to remind you that marriage is a constitution that is not necessarily religious. this constitution is there to protect both parties regardless of what their religious or personal beliefs are. if a man or woman of 60 years of age convinces a 13 year old or a mentally disabled individual to marry them, someone needs to step in and correct that. someone needs to step in and make sure that none of these two parties are being forced in to this relationship or are going to be subjects to abuse of any sort. in islam or other religious societies, it's a religious leader, in non religious societies, it's a government official.

life is not entirely about sex. you can't dedicate all the days of your life in to keeping various partners happy even if you do come across individuals who may be okay with that sort of a lifestyle. you have to educate yourself, build a life, have kids, provide for them and focus on excelling in a society as an individual, a parent and a responsible member of the society.
as a civilization, we wouldn't have lasted very long if our population had grown larger with out us focusing on expanding our resources and developing an advanced system of agriculture.

and how can we possibly prevent our societies from perishing if instead of focusing on things that requires for our immediate attention, we focus on changing our attitudes and behaviors towards revisioning the basic laws of the mankind??

I am against Islamism not Islam. Role of religion is limited to faith, worship and morality and some spirituality. Family can be also its focus. Not beyond that.

I do not know what is correct Islam and what is not correct Islam. You can guide me on this. For me the correct Islam is the 5 pillars of Islam and spirituality. You can govern your family on Islamic jurisprudence but as you said marriage can be civil or secular too.

We need religion for marriage but we can do without it too as many are doing. When I say we, I mean human beings, Muslims, Pashtuns those who may agree with me.
For a boy a girl who cannot wait for 30 years to be married, for him/her marriage is an immediate issue while for Karzai future of Afghanistan may be more immediate.
Life is not entirely about sex but there can be no life without sex. sex is the best entertainment and a very important human urge. We cannot ignore it. Those who are legally adult must have sex with or without marriage otherwise you miss something important of your carnal and spiritual self.

I recommend sex only for legally adults not for minors. As you said religion or law should intervene but for minors not for adults. But it is a paradox that in Islam marrying a child is not prohibited rather it is a sunna, an act of virtue!

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Badlun why is religion so keen on marriage?

[DaZahroJaam.]

first of all, you said you are not against islam but islamism and that islam's role as a religion is limited to morality. according to the basics of islam, extra marital affairs are immoral. how can you not be against the morality of islam and yet suggest there is no need for it to frown upon extra marital affairs??

also, could you explain to me what you define "ISLAMISIM" as?? as i have mentioned to you in the past, islamism is not an islamic version of something but someone tagging a bunch of nonsense under the name of islam. you being against islamism doesn't say anything about your beliefs of islam. i am against islamism, that doesn't mean i am against islam. why do you define them as two separate things at one point and then toss them in the same bucket a few moments later??

no one is forcing you to live your life with out sex. we have so many examples of societies where people don't bother to wait until they are 30 before having sex and they haven't turned out any better either. as a matter of fact, as afghans, one of our major issues is our kids getting married at an earlier age and then not being able to provide for their growing families or reaching their own proper potentials.

once again, if your needs are higher, by all means, go ahead and get married. don't suggest we change the rest of the society because of how conflicted you feel as an individual.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

DZJ, he's playing around with words, he's against Islam, he's trying to use a Soft Approach at dissolving Islam, by attacking its values bit by bit.

He makes back handed accusations against Muhammad(saw). He promotes Anti-Islamic ideologies like Osho. the writing is on the wall.

[DaZahroJaam.]

Don't talk to me.

[randolph85]

he is a typical cultural muslim, not a practicing muslim. most afghans in the west i have come across are like this but the kicker is that this badlun is actually intelligent and tries to rationalize his disbelief in the practices of islam whereas most others do it out of ignorance. this makes him basically a kafir since he knows what he is doing is wrong and he willingly commits shirk by placing his own anti islamic wants and desires alongside god or whatever he thinks god is.

like revo said, the writing is on the wall and it is important for us to single out these kind of people because they spread fitna. these people are a poison for ummah, no different than some crazy salafi telling kids to blow themselves up.

[کیش]

Ugh, Badlun is still using that made up word "Islamism" even though he has been debunked several times over.

Badlun is an example of a Stupidist. Stupidist means someone's who has been debunked but continues acting the same.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I think even labeling him a cultural Muslim is being too gracious at this point. He has an open negativity towards Muhammad(saw), refers to him as an ARAB leader, as if Islam is an Arab Nationalistic movement, which is evidently false. He even advocates decriminalizing fornication IN Islam, by no longer calling it zina.

I mean sinning is one thing but trying to change harram into halal is another. This is openly disbelieving in something clearly stated in Islam, it's not even some wacko extreme interpretation issue.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Interesting though that women while allowed to own slaves (be they male slaves) these slaves can not "service" her in the same manner as they would a man... Also a male slave would have access to be with the female owner at all times ... But seeing as they are viewed as property out goes the men and women not mixing rule

Slaves were generally emasculated i.e. had their genitals removed in such instances.

[کیش]

I think even labeling him a cultural Muslim is being too gracious at this point. He has an open negativity towards Muhammad(saw), refers to him as an ARAB leader, as if Islam is an Arab Nationalistic movement, which is evidently false. He even advocates decriminalizing fornication IN Islam, by no longer calling it zina.

I mean sinning is one thing but trying to change harram into halal is another. This is openly disbelieving in something clearly stated in Islam, it's not even some wacko extreme interpretation issue.

Badlun is a grown ass man and doesn't even have elementary knowledge of Islam. That is embarrassing, and sad.

Not even open anti-Muslims dont call the Prophet an "Arab leader.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Sorry, wrote that just before going to sleep so it might have been unclear what I was trying to explain.

My point is that since fornication and adultery have been decriminalized in the west, their society completely ignores the human interactions between the two genders and simply assert the idea of "equality between genders" as a universal doctrine.


That universal doctrine, while looking good on a paper, has the major flaw that it ignores the fact that humans are not robots, they have a soul and a nafs and desires and passions and they sin and sometimes they even murder.


The Pashtun society has the values it has because of thousands of years of tradition.

People knew since ancient times that men and women cannot coexist in the same environment without sexual desires.

I can see how the westerners flirt with each other even when they have a boyfriend/girlfriend.

Also, the stories about women and men who cheat on their partner at work are legion.


That is why traditionnal societies didn't allow women and men to work together.

And that is also why women are married so young compared to the west.

Firstly I'd like to address that Pashtuns have not existed for Thousands of years. This is merely Cultural Mythology exaggerated by tenuous and often abstract references which superficially appear to have some similarity but under close scrutiny are not really concrete.

Secondly, Pashtuns were originally homads, nomadic societies have the entire society as labor force, men and women. Observe Pashtun nomadic tribes, women are carrying goods, often w/o male accompaniment. This has nothing to do with modern influences. Nomads do not live a modern lifestyle.

Thirdly, Muslim women even during the time of the Khilafah Rashideen were active in society. Khalifa Umar Ibn Khattab(ra) appointed a woman to be a Minister of the Markets to regulate pricing in trade outposts in Madinah. Women were working in markets, in trade, in administration.

The issue of decriminalizing fornication and the movement of women are two mutually exclusive issues. i.e. one does not lead to the other. The evidence of this is that the Romans permitted fornication but women were property under the control of masters who offered them for guests and such. Pious Muslim women have traveled around the world and not let one hand touch them out of their own self respect. Thus the problem seems to be more in not teaching people accountability for their decisions.

You're still committing the correlation vs. causation fallacy here.

[Dreamer]

Slaves were generally emasculated i.e. had their genitals removed in such instances.

charming....

[RevolutionThroughReason]

charming....

you never heard of eunuchs?