Death of Jesus Christ may peace be on him.

[Millatpal Noorzai]

Where does it say we can't debate "Mutazlia'en?"

Jazakallah for the info.

Though the term "Mutazalia" has not been specifically mentioned but Allah has ordered his slaves not indulge in debates and gathering where individuals based on their humanistic theology challenge Islamic philosophy and victuals.
If not mistaken, there is several ahadith in this regard too.Unfortunately, don't have access to Quran Sharif and books of Ahadith right now.

[Millatpal Noorzai]

Dearest brother,

in the tenets of Islamic belief the "finality of prophethood" is not there.

I might be wrong, but you could perhaps enlighten me.

We have the 5 pillars of Islam and we have the 6 articles of faith. In none of these do we see that professing the "finality of prophethood" makes you part of Islam or breaks you from Islam.

امنت بالله و ملیکته و رسله

How would u interpret this?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

امنت بالله و ملیکته و رسله

How would u interpret this?

"I believe in Allah and in His Angels and in His Prophets."

There is no mention of time here, as in there is no past, present and future in this.

Thank you for taking the time to respond Noorzai Lala.

[Millatpal Noorzai]

Where has Allah prohibited you from debating ANYONE but specifically those termed "Mutazilia'en"? Evidence, please.

Mutazlia is a term commonly used for ppl what i have described in my previous posts.
It is not mentioned in Quran.

[Millatpal Noorzai]

"I believe in Allah and in His Angels and in His Prophets."

There is no mention of time here, as in there is no past, present and future in this.

Thank you for taking the time to respond Noorzai Lala.

I said interpret it,, interpretation is not translation Momin Lala

[asifsyal]

Dearest brother, perhaps you adhere that Hadhrat 'Isa (as) is in the Heavens, as do most Muslims. However, to say that the Ahmadis are the only ones that say that Hadhrat 'Isa (as) is not in the Heavens is false.

I presented what Asad has said, as well as Professor Shaltut.

Look, we Ahmadi do not say that Hazrat Isa alaihe salam is not in the heaven, it is totally on the contrary; all those who believe that Jesus will return it is only them who believe that Jesus is not in HEAVENS. Reason: Allah says that once a person enters the Heavens will not be expelled from it. So we do not believe that Jesus will return himself in that case he will be ejected from the heavens, however the other Muslim brothers who believe that he will return it is only them who say that he will be taken out of the heavens, now the question is that the Quran should be right or people? obviously the holy Quran so the Holy Quran says that once Allah favor on one he do not take it back unless he deserves that...

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Though the term "Mutazalia" has not been specifically mentioned but Allah has ordered his slaves not indulge in debates and gathering where individuals based on their humanistic theology challenge Islamic philosophy and victuals.
If not mistaken, there is several ahadith in this regard too.Unfortunately, don't have access to Quran Sharif and books of Ahadith right now.

This leaves us with a great void, then. How do we exercise ijtihad then?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Look, we Ahmadi do not say that Hazrat Isa alaihe salam is not in the heaven, it is totally on the contrary; all those who believe that Jesus will return it is only them who believe that Jesus is not in HEAVENS. Reason: Allah says that once a person enters the Heavens will not be expelled from it. So we do not believe that Jesus will return himself in that case he will be ejected from the heavens, however the other Muslim brothers who believe that he will return it is only they who say that he will be taken out of the heavens, now the question is that the Quran should be right or people? obviously the holy Quran so the Holy Quran says that once Allah favor on one he do not take it back unless he deserves that...

Yes, I do see the difference between you and others who say that he is not in the Heavens.

You have a very valid point here. Could you kindly post the verse that says this.

[Millatpal Noorzai]

This leaves us with a great void, then. How do exercise ijtihad then?

Thank you for bringing the matter of Ijtehad up.
Based on Ulema's (Majority on a global scale) ijtehad,Qadyanis were declared KAFIR.
Or is it that we accept Ijtehad where it serves our purpose and deny it where it doesn't?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Thank you for bringing the matter of Ijtehad up.
Based on Ulema's (Majority on a global scale) ijtehad,Qadyanis were declared KAFIR.
Or is it that we accept Ijtehad where it serves our purpose and deny it where it doesn't?

If I am not mistaken, I think it was based on ijma' not ijtihad that they were declared non-Muslim. HUGE difference.

[Mujib]

Dr. Umar Faruq Abd-Allah

This Khutbah was delivered by Dr. Umar Faruq Abd'Allah, scholar in residence at the Nawawi Foundation in Chicago. It was delivered at the compound of the Muslim Youth Organization (MYO) in Georgetown, Guyana, on April 2. Given that it was 'Good Friday' Dr. Umar decided to address the topic of the Islamic perspective of the Christian doctrine of the Crucifixion of Christ. The Khutbah was given at the request of the Central Islamic Organization of Guyana (CIOG) and the executive of Queenstown Jama Masjid. Because the Masjid is being reconstructed MYO is the temporary home for its Jumu'ah Khutbah.

The other parts can be found here: Dr. Umar Abd-Allah Georgetown, Guyana sermon on the Islamic perspective of the Christian doctrine of the Crucifixion of Christ.

[asifsyal]

That is true, Quran printed by Ahmadis consider the first ayah of every surah as "bismillahir rahmaanir raheem." Except Surah At-Taubah, because it does not start with "bismillahir rahmaanir raheem."

Thanks, I am sure these three or four verses that I had posted is the unchallenged proofs, no one can ever come up with the answers of such questions that were made over here.. I am not praising myself because I did not invented them, it is the proofs that Allah himself has proclaimed in the Holy Quran, so let them to proof them false then I will post new proofs, but even then I have to explain the 30 verses that I said they exist in the Holy Quran.

[Millatpal Noorzai]

If I am not mistaken, I think it was based on ijma' not ijtihad that they were declared non-Muslim. HUGE difference.

Yes Ijtehad as an idividual thought/interpretation and Ijma is sharing that interpretation in a collective manner,where if solely agreed is translated into a Fatwaa.The Fatwaa was that Qadyanis were and are Kafir.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes Ijtehad as an idividual thought/interpretation and Ijma is sharing that interpretation in a collective manner,where if solely agreed is translated into a Fatwaa.The Fatwaa was that Qadyanis were and are Kafir.

Actually, I see what you are saying. However, the actual proceedings of happened were under a publication ban in 1974 until today. Therefore, you and I don't have the right to conclude on that that they are non-Muslim. The whole of the proceedings was political. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto needed the support of the 'ulema of the time and in order to make them happy he went against the Ahmadis. It was purely political.

Did you know that the judge who was presiding over the passing of the motion of declaring Ahmadis non-Muslim in 1974 also wanted to include the Ismailis? He said this to himself: "If Ahmadis are being declared non-Muslim when their actions fall right in-line with the sunnah of the Prophet (saw) and they hold the Quran dear to their hearts, then the Ismailis should be declared non-Muslim just based on their actions and how they allow their Imam to abrogate verses at his own descretion." When this made it to the authorities, this judge was fired and a new judge was brought in to bring this into law.

Therefore, you and I can't know what political motivations happened in that time.

We can simply go by what Allah has given us and that is the Holy Quran.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sahih al-Bukhari - Book of the Prophets:

3264. It is related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "By the One who has my soul in His hand, the time is soon coming when the son of Maryam will descend among you as a just judge. He will break the crosses, kill the pigs and remove the jizya-tax. There will be so much money that there will be no takers for it, and a single prostration will be better than this world and what it contains." Then Abu Hurayra said, "Recite if you like, 'There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Rising, he will be a witness against them.' (4:159)"

3265. It is related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "How will you be when the son of Maryam descends among you and is your Imam from among you?"

Mujib Jana,

I was looking through these ahadith you posted and I found some fascinating things.

According to the Holy Quran there will be Jews and Christians until the Day of Judgement. This contradicts the verse that Hadhrat Abu Hurairah (ra) has mentioned. It questions two things:

1. Did Abu Hurairah say this?
2. Was Abu Hurairah known to be an authority of the Holy Quran among the companions?

Also, this hadith clearly indicates that Hadhrat 'Isa (as) will not descent physically, it is metaphoric:

3265. It is related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "How will you be when the son of Maryam descends among you and is your Imam from among you?"

1. How can Hadhrat 'Isa descend among the whole ummah at once? Physically it is impossible.
2. According to this hadith he will be a Muslim when he returns.

Could you please post the Arabic of these ahadith. It should clear up the matter.