Death of Jesus Christ may peace be on him.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Mujib, warnings are not what we need. We need you to offer a rebuttal to his claims and his verses from the Quran. Aren't there always 2 sides to a story?

Manana.

My friend this is why Muslims are so behind. We shut those down who have different point of views. I would love to see us discuss with this brother.

Why do we Muslims discuss non-Islamic matters freely but when it comes to Islamic matters we say: "Please talk to my scholar, because he is a scholar?"

Since when are scholars custodians of knowledge?

As I mentioned in another post, one thing, my dearest brothers and sisters, that you must keep in mind is that we are told in the Holy Quran not to follow scholars instead of that which Allah has mentioned.

And, interestingly enough, Muhammad Asad, who is not an Ahmadi, agrees with the Ahmadiyya interpretation: Hadhrat Isa (as) is not in the Heavens.

[asifsyal]

Asalamo Alaikom
Asad that is what exactly I wanted to say. thank you
If Jesus is not in Heaven then where is he?
My question is that where are all the other prophets of Allah?
what ever your answer would be that is my answer.
about the ending up of Jesus in Kashmire this book if a perfect book Roohani Khazain 23 Volumes - 82 Books - Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at Urdu Pages
the number of the book is 48 please see that, you can find an english version too over there,

[Roshina]

A warning to Muslims:

Ahmadis/Qadians misintrepret Qur'anic verses in attempts to prove that Sayyidina `Isa (as) died and that he is not the Messiah and that he will not return. They do this to prove their belief in the false-prophet Mirza Ghulam whom they claim was the Messiah and a prophet (na`udhubillah).

Brother Mujib, thank you for your perspective, but please let Asif Brother explain his stance further. Just because the majority Muslims interpret the Quran one way does not make it the correct interpretation and anything that's outside the bounds of that perspective a "misinterpretation."

You're a non-Ahmadi Muslim, so of course you're going to warn everyone against the Ahmadi point of view. While that may be understandable, it's not the best thing to do during a debate or discussion, as we need to listen to the other side just as we'd want them to listen to us.

Manana for sharing your views!

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

This is a link to the Fatwa issued by Imam Mahmud Shaltut. He was the Professor Imam Shaltut was Grand Mufti of Egypt, great reformer and also Rector of Al-Azhar University, Egypt.

There is a lot in that link. However, it has the summary of Shaltut's fatwa.

[Mujib]

The first Verse of the Holy Quran which proofs that Jesus Christ has died. I don't mean that he was killed on the cross, this is not Islamic believe.

وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ Al e Imran 145
Translation:
Muhammad صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم is only a prophet of Allah; all prophets before him have passed away.

The verse is 144 of Sura 3, not 145. The verse does not say "all prophets before him have passed away." It says:

144. Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.

Similarly Allah swt says in the holy Quran:
مَا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ الطَّعَامَ انْظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الْآَيَاتِ ثُمَّ انْظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ
Translation:
Jesus Christ was only a prophet of Allah; all prophets before him have passed away, his (Jesus') mother was a pious women; they both (Jesus and his mother) used to eat meal
Amaeda verse 76

The verse is verse 75 from Sura 5, not verse 76. It does not say "all prophets before him have passed away." It says:

75. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

now this verse says that Jesus and his mother used to eat meal, this means that they both DO NOT eat meals, it is clears about his mother Mary that why does not she eat meal now; obviously because she is dead, now it is about Jesus, why does not HE eat meal?? Is he alive and does not need to eat?

First, not eating earthly food does not mean death. He is not living on earth. Secondly, "they both used to eat (earthly) food" is an argument against the Christian belief that he or his mother were divine.

You can not say that
Why?
Because the Holy Quran does not let you say that:
وَمَا جَعَلْنَا لِبَشَرٍ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ الْخُلْدَ أَفَإِنْ مِتَّ فَهُمُ الْخَالِدُونَ
Translation:
And we have not let any HUMAN being to live long before you O Muhammad صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم Would you die and they will be living???
al anbia 35

The verse is verse 34 of Sura 21, not verse 35. It says:

34. We appointed immortality for no mortal before thee. What! if thou diest, can they be immortal!

Muslims do not believe that Sayyidina `Isa (as) is immortal. He will return to earth and live out the remainder of his life, and then he will die.

[Roshina]

As I mentioned in another post, one thing, my dearest brothers and sisters, that you must keep in mind is that we are told in the Holy Quran not to follow scholars instead of that which Allah has mentioned.

Indeed. We've become slaves and worshipers of the people we call scholars, NOT the worshipers or slaves of God. And you know what's worse? We can't even agree on what a scholar is, or who can be called a scholar, or which scholars are "correct"!

We need to keep in mind that the Quran's words are not always interpreted the same way by different people. Every single verse of the Quran can mean a ton of things, and then each scholar/interpreter explains it according to HIS knowledge, HIS views, HIS understanding. Why are we obligated to agree with or accept that particular understanding?

Here, in the Ahmadi Muslims' case, we note that the difference mostly lies in the translation of the words "Qad khalat." They argue that it means "passed AWAY," whereas many other interpreter and translaters argue that, no, it just means "passed," as in gone. It doesn't necessarily imply that all of them were killed or died a natural death; it just means they were here, they were sent by God, but now they're not here anymore.

That's the point we need to be focusing on right now, I'd think.

[asifsyal]

Yeah, Asad's views have really inspired me,
as you said that to understand Islam is every muslim's duty, the Holy prophet peace be on him has said that my people will follow Jews step by step, and in sura juma Allah swt warns the Muslims not to follow those to whom the duty of Tora was given but they did not do what they had to do their example is like a donkey carrying books, this means that Jews had loaded up their religious duties on donkeys, here donkeys means their scholars, because donkeys do not know what books mean, similarly the Jews scholars did not know what the Shareea was, so they did not care about it, and did things according to their wishes thus they went astray, so Allah alerts the Muslims not to follow them, but unfortunately THIS HAPPENED, today you see that religious duties restrains and are limited only to the movis, if a baby is born parents will say call the Molvi Sahib to say Azan in the his or her ear, and if you i know that most of today's Muslims do not think that prayer could be lead with a mula!! and so on so this was what Allah had warned the Muslims but despite this it happened..

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Indeed. We've become slaves and worshipers of the people we call scholars, NOT the worshipers or slaves of God. And you know what's worse? We can't even agree on what a scholar is, or who can be called a scholar, or which scholars are "correct"!

We need to keep in mind that the Quran's words are not always interpreted the same way by different people. Every single verse of the Quran can mean a ton of things, and then each scholar/interpreter explains it according to HIS knowledge, HIS views, HIS understanding. Why are we obligated to agree with or accept that particular understanding?

Here, in the Ahmadi Muslims' case, we note that the difference mostly lies in the translation of the words "Qad khalat." They argue that it means "passed AWAY," whereas many other interpreter and translaters argue that, no, it just means "passed," as in gone. It doesn't necessarily imply that all of them were killed or died a natural death; it just means they were here, they were sent by God, but now they're not here anymore.

That's the point we need to be focusing on right now, I'd think.

According to Arabic expressive use the term "qad khalat" means a void has been left that will not be filled.

[Roshina]

Muslims do not believe that Sayyidina `Isa (as) is immortal. He will return to earth and live out the remainder of his life, and then he will die.

Bro, please don't say "Muslims" by which you mean only non-Ahmadi Muslims. Say "Most Muslims" or "Many Muslims," since Ahmadis consider themselves Muslims as well. So obviously not ALL Muslims believe the same thing; there are differences.

It's not wise or proper of us to declare others as non-Muslims (when they say they're Muslims) just because the majority of us disagree with them.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Asif, Continue.

GUYS PLEASE STOP LINKING US TO OTHER WEBSITES. Present your own argument. I hate visiting other websites. I like to read what our members say, Not what someone in another platform has to say.

The link that I posted of Professor Shaltut was a fatwa issued by Al Azhar in Caira, Egypt. They concluded that after Mirza Ghulam Ahmad stated that Hadhrat 'Isa (as) has passed away.

[asifsyal]

Oh, come on man!! you have tried to pinpoint my mistakes about the numbers of the verses, I don't think that you have said something new, as far the verses numbers are concerned, I want to make it clear for you that some count بسم اللہ الرحمٰن الرحیم as a verse and some do not, Jamat Ahmadiyya also believe that every time the بسم اللہ الرحمن الرحیم should be counted as a verse, for example when you are asked that how many verses does sura fatiha contains? you will say 7, that is including the bismila, so that seems illogical to count bismlah as a verse in sura fatiha and do not care about the rest of the suras, well, what ever I request you to please just think deep and study these verses deeply and then you will come to some conclusions, best of luck..

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yeah, Asad's views have really inspired me,
as you said that to understand Islam is every muslim's duty, the Holy prophet peace be on him has said that my people will follow Jews step by step, and in sura juma Allah swt warns the Muslims not to follow those to whom the duty of Tora was given but they did not do what they had to do their example is like a donkey carrying books, this means that Jews had loaded up their religious duties on donkeys, here donkeys means their scholars, because donkeys do not know what books mean, similarly the Jews scholars did not know what the Shareea was, so they did not care about it, and did things according to their wishes thus they went astray, so Allah alerts the Muslims not to follow them, but unfortunately THIS HAPPENED, today you see that religious duties restrains and are limited only to the movis, if a baby is born parents will say call the Molvi Sahib to say Azan in the his or her ear, and if you i know that most of today's Muslims do not think that prayer could be lead with a mula!! and so on so this was what Allah had warned the Muslims but despite this it happened..

I agree with you, most Muslim "scholars" have just memorized things. They don't follow it up with the wisdom that is in what they have memorized. Just like a donkey carrying loads of books.

How else do you think that the ummah is divided? These scholars have taken the liberty to throw those who don't agree with them out of the fold of Islam.

[Millatpal Noorzai]

Debating a QADYANI is denouncing and degrading the honorable Ulema around the globe who went through countless efforts and studies before declaring all the QADYANIS/MIRZAYEES/AHMEDIS KAFIRR!!!!!

Asifsyal instead of discussing Issa Alaih e Salaam and his crucification,let's test your creed about Muhammad Pbuh being the last prophet and messenger?
Do you believe Mirza Qadyan was some sort of messenger or Prohpet?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Oh, come on man!! you have tried to pinpoint my mistakes about the numbers of the verses, I don't think that you have said something new, as far the verses numbers are concerned, I want to make it clear for you that some count بسم اللہ الرحمٰن الرحیم as a verse and some do not, Jamat Ahmadiyya also believe that every time the بسم اللہ الرحمن الرحیم should be counted as a verse, for example when you are asked that how many verses does sura fatiha contains? you will say 7, that is including the bismila, so that seems illogical to count bismlah as a verse in sura fatiha and do not care about the rest of the suras, well, what ever I request you to please just think deep and study these verses deeply and then you will come to some conclusions, best of luck..

That is true, Quran printed by Ahmadis consider the first ayah of every surah as "bismillahir rahmaanir raheem." Except Surah At-Taubah, because it does not start with "bismillahir rahmaanir raheem."

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Debating a QADYANI is denouncing and degrading the honorable Ulema around the globe who went through countless efforts and studies before declaring all the QADYANIS/MIRZAYEES/AHMEDIS KAFIRR!!!!!

Asifsyal instead of discussing Issa Alaih e Salaam and his crucification,let's test your creed about Muhammad Pbuh being the last prophet and messenger?
Do you believe Mirza Qadyan was some sort of messenger or Prohpet?

I think we should solve one thing at a time. Let Asif, prove his case first that Hadhrat 'Isa (as) is passed away.